Plain staccato versus ricochet

August 12, 2011 at 06:39 AM ·

Actually what I meant to ask is when to play staccato versus spiccato. I just found a very good youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9v-UpM9flY) that explains this. But I would still like to know if there some special notation for spiccato and ricochet.

August 12, 2011 at 04:22 PM ·

I'm going to guess that fast dotted notes with a slur have to be riccochet... but wait the answer!

August 12, 2011 at 07:11 PM ·

To know when to do spiccato vs. staccato I decide based on one of the following variables:

1. Tradition, 2. The effect your conductor wants, 3. What would Oistrakh do? 4. The effect you want.

Also, something you practice staccato at a slow tempo may very naturally come off the string at a higher tempo. If the notes are connected by a slur it could either be a ricochet or an upbow/downbow staccato, like in Hora Staccato.

August 12, 2011 at 10:45 PM ·

 Haris, in that video you posted, the lady does not demonstrate staccato.  The strokes she is playing in the beginning are close to colle - an articulated bow stroke starting from the string in the lower half with a 'bite' and martele - a detached articulated stroke played mainly in the upper half of the bow.  Spiccato is a short off the string stroke.  A proper spiccato starts off the string, not from the string, as seen here played by Mr. Heifetz:

Here this is me playing the staccato (downbow).  It has a different articulation than the 'lighter' sound you get from spiccato.

Here is a good example of ricochet by Eugene Fodor in the beginning of the last movement of Paganini No. 1 (embedding was disabled so I'll provide the link). It is like spiccato starting from off the string but the bow is bounced in one direction (downward) and all of what results from the initial 'drop' is a rebound (kind of like dribbling a basketball).  It gives a light, thrown 'capricious' articulation to the sound: http://youtu.be/723kg8RQGw8

August 13, 2011 at 02:30 AM ·

I feel like I am about to go where angels fear to tread. Part of me wants stay out of this, but you see my last lesson was a moving back from the bowings in the Wohlfahrt Op. 45 (nos. 1, 2 and 3 so far) to working on my staccato and legato playing. Individual bow strokes and two under a curve.

So when my teacher and I discussed playing staccato notes detaché it is indeed with pinch of the thumb and the index finger biting into the string. And perhaps this is technically a martele, I don’t know.

What Beth is showing as staccato and what my teacher is teaching me as staccato appear to be the same. Coming from a brass player decades ago in high school as well as a guitar / recorder / traverso player and a choir director when I see a group of notes with dots over them I would call that staccato.

So I think within a strict (and yes I consulted Gerle) violin centric parlance it probably is more correct to call this a martele bow stroke.  In general musical terminology it is staccato.

The multiple notes under a single bow stroke “staccato” is very advanced. My teacher tells me that the two up bow staccato notes I use in one piece I am playing is a bit advanced for my four months of playing.

We would have to see what the original poster meant but I have a feeling Beth’s video was a good example of what some of us want to know in this context.
 

Though I really do love watching Heifetz's bow in this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mag2mc5Vva0

August 13, 2011 at 02:36 AM ·

 'So I think within a strict (and yes I consulted Gerle) violin centric parlance it probably is more correct to call this a martele bow stroke.  In general musical terminology it is staccato.'

You're exactly right.  I should've pointed that out.  String instruments just have more terminology when it comes to the articulations.  For example on the piano pretty much any note that is marked with a dot is considered to be 'staccato' but for the violin that's not enough to describe the sound since you can achieve short articulations with a variety of techniques.

August 13, 2011 at 06:37 AM ·

We still don't have an answer for the sub-plot: is there a way to tell a slurred spiccato from a riccochet other than the technical limit of playing fast slurred spiccato...

August 13, 2011 at 08:28 AM ·

 No. If the composer writes what bowings he wants we know exactly, else we have to think about the style the piece is written in and what sound the composer wants.

August 14, 2011 at 07:57 AM ·

Thank you everyone for anywering my question. But, what is the difference between spiccato and ricochet? Is it that spiccato is played with light bouncing, and ricochet with a greater bounce, or is there somethig more to it?

August 14, 2011 at 01:37 PM ·

After a little logical thinking I came to this conclusion: Spiccato is played alternately up- and down-bow, and that is why it can't be connected with a slur. If one needs to play a group of notes in one direction only, then we connect them with a slur, but in that case we play staccato, unless the notes are too short. If they are too short, we need to use a bounce. Because we want to play more notes in one direction, we need a greater bounce, and it becomes a ricoshet! Correct me if I'm wrong.

Have you watched this girl playing Caprice No. 1: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ_1-i1AKM ? It's just amazing!

August 14, 2011 at 02:51 PM ·

 Haris - you are basically correct, but you don't need a greater bounce to do ricochet, you angle the hand differently and the hand is active in a different way.