violin pedagogy: choosing your teaching/learning material

May 5, 2011 at 06:56 PM ·

drawing somewhat from all the suggestions and arguments incurred by one of the posts here (regarding Scales), i would like to ask mr Brivati and the other teachers here.. this: with so much pedagogical material already present each purporting to be a system (whether it is successful as one or not) how do you toggle/juggle between one and the other in teaching it to your students? for example, i had a teacher who thought wolfhart essential and supplemented it with some mazas and he wrote out the scales himself...then i have one now who wants to put me on kayser, sevcik without giving wolfhart a second glance and wants to use some book of scales (name starts with a g..not galamian of course..)....then people start recommending the simon fisher book ...etc etc........................for me, even an adult student, it just becomes overwhelming the abundance of material, the surge of new material, and we (as students) are left at the total mercy of the teachers knowledge (or lack thereof) of what to introduce and when.

thanks for reading this

Replies (8)

Sue Bechler

May 5, 2011 at 07:39 PM ·

Well, yes. Lots of things to choose from, new ideas coming along all the time. You do go on trust that your teacher will be knowledgeable, and will think/work diligently to select with your needs in mind. There are folks who play/teach straight through various collections of etudes, and others who cherry-pick. You sound a little overwhelmed by it all, so a teacher who is prepared to do the latter for you may be who you want to seek out.

Michael Ishizawa

May 5, 2011 at 07:43 PM · Tammuz, Learning the violin is a lot of determination, hard work. concentration, trial & error and just plain luck. The difficult part is finding the right teacher for you at your stage of development. There are many teaching "systems" out there. They all have their good points. An experienced teacher should know what would work for you. Usually it's a combination of several. I was lucky to find a teacher with the keen insight to see what I needed and how to correct or advance my playing. Finding that teacher is trial and error. Talk to other players and ask for advise. I've found that fiddle players do congregate and "talk shop" a lot. You might also check with the local symphony orchestra for recommendations. The rest of it is up to you. Playing violin well is not easy work. Good luck to you.

Kathryn Woodby

May 5, 2011 at 11:06 PM ·

What a fabulous question!

You touch on two levels, both of which I can relate to!

As a teacher, it is my job to sort through various “systems” and give my students what they need in an organized and systematic manner to build up their skills. A quote I once heard is that “any system works, so long as you use it consistently and excellently.” I begin to believe that is true—with two caveats. One—you have to understand the system with its goals and purposes to teach it well. For example, somebody trying to teach the Suzuki system without understanding it is not going to turn out a good product. :) Your teachers are probably using the system they are most familiar with and that they know will fit the goals. Two—using a system consistently does not mean using it rigidly. In fact, fully understanding the purposes and goals of a system allows a teacher to adapt it where necessary. As I’ve grown as a teacher, I’ve come to understand the purposes and shortfallings of several “systems” and am able to supplement and adapt better and better to each situation. However, even the adaptations or innovations are systematic, or maybe a better word is purposeful—I know what needs to be achieved and I use the “systems” as means to an end.

It is sometimes system “overload” even for me as a teacher—so many methods that do so many great things and you can’t teach them all at once: what is best? Based on the above points, I’ve found that for me and my students (especially young students) it’s best to find a basic curriculum that I know I can use to meet my basic goals, and be consistent with it—but also to continue learning and incorporating the strengths of other systems as they logically fit in. And I’ll be honest (nobody tell Buri :) ) my weakness is etudes. I’m pretty good with the beginner level stuff where the pieces basically are the etudes and I’ve taught enough of it and know the goals well enough that I could make up my own curriculum. But when you start getting into the technique-building etudes—I never had that growing up and now I’m trying to fill in all my holes and figure out what I need them to teach and which volumes will do the job best--both for my students and in some cases for myself! It is a big job! (And thanks to many of you here who have helped me begin to fill that hole!)

As a student, you have to figure out what the teacher wants you to accomplish with his/her “system.” The challenge of course comes when you are the student transitioning between teachers, and each has a different means to their end.

I think what would help the most is figuring out the goals your teachers have in what they are assigning. You may find that both old and new teachers have the same goals, but are just using different material to accomplish them. Or you may find that they are taking slightly different tacks, but each one can give you a different perspective on what you are learning. Then again, if they are just exercises and don’t seem to have any goal….go find a new teacher! (j/k, sounds like your teacher have both been very thoughtful and purposeful.)

Best of luck to you!

Stephen Brivati

May 5, 2011 at 11:47 PM ·

Greetings,

please call me buri.;)

I think your question has more or less been answered but here is some additional blurb for what little it is worth. I approach the notion of system with a little caution. It can imply an absolutely systematic structure that one moves through step by step whereby the omission of one part may be significantly detrimental. I suposse the Suzuki Method as it is now taught by experts corresponds quite closely to this. Indeed most `method books` will be in this vein, although how true that rigidity really is can be quite variable. Other things in this ein might include the Doflein method which I highly recommend to anyone and for youngters the `Adventure in Violin Land.`

Clearly this all targets beginners and that makes sense because we tend to need to learn a complex skill in simple , cocnrete steps in any endeavour. The selection of a specific method will almost invaribaly be done by the teacher and will the one tyhey are comfortable with and know well, one hopes.

Then there are things called systems which exist for advanced players such as the `Galamain Scale Syetm,` and the Flesch scale manual. What characterizes these `systems` is not so much the order or what is on the page but rather the underlying cocnepts or the `approach` if you will. To understand and apply what Galaian believed in involves in depth studing and learning until it becomes second nature for example.

Then we come to study or etude books. These vary a great deal in the degree which they are intended to be sytematic but the general underlying intention is usually that one does at least one kind every etude. People have differnt beliefs in this area. For example, if time allows and the studnets is okay I think Kreutzer should be used systmeatically from begining to end in that order and can give reasons for that order that may be in accord with Kreutzers origial ideas or not. But on the whole, we do not have time to work through a whole slew of books in order and the length of many studies is very intimidating so it is up to the teacher to selct what is appropriate and useful at a given moment. A teacher who forces the student top slog through many etude books form beginning to end is not really very thioughtful or helpful.

SEvcik is a good example of exercises (rather than etudes which have a muscial element) which can be very helpful if used selectviely and extremely harmful if used mindlessly from beginning to end just for the sake of it. For example, I would like to advise almost every intermediate player to spend a lot of time learning all the fourth postion sevick. Why? So many are weak in fourth (and second) and ther eis no excuse for it.

he othe rkind of material available is a miscelaneaous category which icnluides things like Simon Fischer`s Basics which allow one to analyse and restucture ones technique in a very powerful way. I am not so keen on beginners using Basics by themselves even though adults can and often do get a a lot from it stratuing from scratch. the problem is that again, it is the teacher sproblem to decided when a specific problem should be addressed and it may simply be the wrong time to adjust one issue . This is part of the true art of teaching.

Drew`s book is interestuing because in part he has brought toether the developments in efficieny and thinking of modern violin playing that allow students to by pass some of the work normally done with etudes if they are willing to work inteligently and in depth on the contents. I would have no problems with just using such a book with an adult beginner and no other techincal material.

I -love- the first book by Wolfahrt. It is both systematic , full of imaginative and joyful music in many styles and many duets which are crucial in the early stages! Its interesting but a lot of technical problems are actuall musical problems like changes in key and time signature rather than discrete techncial issues. The latter stems from the former rather than the other way round.

When one talks about systme in a general sense one is referring to the long range plan of the teacher. Ther eis not much nnew or necessary in violin playing these days. Most of us know the order of etudes, pieces and cocnertos that work best within a flexible framework that caters for the stdunets best interests. It is the respionsbility of -the teacher- nnot the studnet to know -all- this stuff and be able to gently guide the studnet through it without them feeling overwhelmed but ghelping them utilize their potential to the full.

Does this make things better or worse?:)

Cheers,

Buri

tammuz kolenyo

May 6, 2011 at 06:49 AM ·

hi, thank you all for responding. maybe some of the additional points below are probably a bit derailing me off my own track..well...

Sue, yes thats exactly what i'm after.

Michael, for an adult beginner and given my work schedule i work pretty hard on my violin practice (1.5 to 2.5 hours a day) and this is why i would like to "get lucky" and find that teacher. unfortunately, i am unlucky in that i live in a region with a serious dearth in teachers (UAE). i've now got a new teacher; i hope she will be well rounded. she seems serious although she didnt give the wolfhart a second look - maybe she didnt use it as a student . i suspect that its "easy" to be a violin teacher here; i.e. if you play the violin at a well advanced stage, you can then teach...but playing an instrument, even well, does not equate to being able to teach it.

Kathryn, one of qualms with my previous teacher (i didn't bother to voice them, the poor teacher had enough on her plate..as part of a music school that treated music as if it were retail...) were that although i really was able to musically and technically advance via the musical pieces most of which she made sure i got a reasonable command of (bach bourree, carl bohm spanish dance...etc etc...culminating in the bach a minor violin concerto - 1st movement...albeit at my own suggestion)....the etudes and scales werevery disporportionate to the music. i believe she was not able to structure the lesson to encompass a wholesome technical and musical regimen. unfortunately. i'm glad i started ...as a younger adult...with a couple of teachers who were able to do this so i could tell the difference. so, i urge all teachers, please give us etudes and scales,we love them :o)

hi Buri, thanks for replying as well. you always manage to paint the broad picture as well as aswering specifically. i understand your post pretty well. i think part of the problem is that some if not many teachers are not as aware (or simply have the experience with) what material to use, how to use it and where to use it, which seems to rely on the personal, traditional and professional endeavour of the teacher herself/himself and not a universal prerequisite knowledge. i recall one of auer's points in his concise yet really rich book "violin playing as i teach it" that this, more or less, is what causes serious damage to a student's education. this is why i ask about the abundance of material and how it fits in. it seems that a large part of the choice of material is by traditional propogation...what the teacher was already familiar with as a student and not necessarily what works best. the student, especially children and their naive parents (i dont mean to be disparaging by calling them naive, i mean concerning violin) - adult students have the advantage of being more critical- cannot tell whether the teacher is imparting the best (or at least a very good) education.it seems that to be a teacher, one must learn teaching and his/her learning must be monitored as in any other academic field, does this happen? i'm sure not globally.

buri, its interesting that you classify the sevcik books as excercise books and not a method as such. so the sum total of the sevcik books would not be tantamount to being a system? i hear that there were famous violinists such as kubelik who were brought up on sevcik as a whole system.

another question, do you think that kayser and wolfhart tackle the same techniques and that one can be substituted for another? say, if my teacher were to use kayser, there would be no technical gap that would have been addressed by wolfhart?

again, thanks for taking the time to read this

Stephen Brivati

May 6, 2011 at 07:35 AM ·

Greetings,

somewhat more briefly than usual...

yes, I would say sevcik is a complete system. However it cannot be classifed as etudes because it contains no musical element. That was sevciks point. Get rid of the music and just master pure mechanics. I do not agree that this is the best way to learn the violin. Yes there was Kubelik and there are more modern violnist who studied mostly sevcik in their youth. I have a personal opinion that others may not agree with thta those players are somehow lacking even though they play so well. One such player, just for me is Accardo, who I have always felt to be an enormous talent who never quite reached his full meteteoric potential and I honestly belive too much sevcik was responsible. I also have listend extensively to Czech players hwho use a great deal of sevcik and although their playing is technically flawless it does often seem cold and mechanical.

Yes agood teacher can teach you the fundamentals using Kayser without touching Wolfarht. No problem at all.

Cheers,

Buri

Diane Allen

May 6, 2011 at 02:50 PM ·

Yes - aren't we blessed with an abundance of material? My husband, a bassist, has a fraction of the amount to draw on.

I can guess what level your playing is based on the books and music you are mentioning. I would highly recommend being open and go through all the material your teacher suggests with everything you've got. Give it 6 months to a year and then get back to your questioning mode. If you've really given it the college try and you aren't getting results - then get back to analysis. I guess what I'm trying to say here is start with a bit of blind faith to check it out first.

That said - I try my best to eat in a balanced way. The same is true for your lesson material. Daily vitamins are scales and etudes. Main meal could be some Bach or perhaps at your level Vivaldi. Desert would be a light fun character piece.

General question - can someone tell me how this forum notifies you of other replies?

Smiles! Diane

tammuz kolenyo

May 7, 2011 at 07:16 PM ·

thanks buri; i did like wolfhart...i hope kayser is likeable as well

diane, you're right i shouldnt prejudge.

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