So confused with intonation systems
Replies (18)
I believe the first system you need to become familiar with is pythagorean tuning. This is where all scales are derived from the perfect fifth. The major scale comes from this system of tuning. After you master this system you need to be able to play in Just intonation, which is 3rds, and 6ths (which would sound out of tune in pythagorean tuning). There are many great exercises in Simon Fischer's books. As far as tuning with a chromatic tuner, you will be close and have pretty good intonation with them, but good, polished intonation comes from the above systems.
Andrew, you said you didn't realize that you had unacceptable intonation for your level of playing till you listened to a recording of your performance.
But would unacceptable intonation at your level be acceptable at the beginner level? I'm not a teacher, but in my opinion, the answer is no. Intonation was one of my strong points from my very first lessons; but my first teacher didn't hesitate to correct faulty hand position or the tendency to lift fingers when they should stay down -- things that could slow me down and cause me to drift off pitch.
You should be able to detect and fix intonation problems by your own live listening -- not just when you play back a recording. I recommend slow practice and careful listening in your mind for the next pitches before sounding them. Besides scales, I review basic shifting every day, using a wide variety of positions -- not just to keep the shifts fluent but also to reinforce my ear training and interval recognition. Ditto for double-stops -- listen, listen, and listen.
I've said this before: Tune consistently and be picky about it. I have so-called perfect pitch -- but I recheck my A string against the A-440 tuner fairly often throughout each practice session.
Finally, try a familiar passage sometime in a room with higher reverb than you're used to -- especially a passage that has high tones on the E string. I find this a good discipline. I use my garage to double-check myself -- although, with the cold weather coming on in the Northern Hemisphere, I'll probably have to break off doing this from mid-November or early December until March. When these high tones get a chance to really ring out and linger in a big room with hard, sound-reflective surfaces, the tendency to edge sharp or flat can show up more vividly.
Like I said, my teacher tells me that I've always played a bit high (which she meant very minutely). This being said, I didn't realise that my playing was always a bit higher and thus it explains that after listening very carefully that in fact it was a tiny bit high. My teacher said this was because my 'pitch perception' is slightly higher than what the violin is based on.
And 'Jim Hastings' I would have to disagree with you on your point. Obviously incorrect intonation is always incorrect; However if we are incorporating level of playing, there is indeed discretion. Being very slightly off in intonation is acceptable at a beginners level. Intonation is a life long journey for any violinist, but how to properly hold the violin or bow is not. In no way was I trying to come off as arrogant stating that my intonation was not acceptable for my level of playing; this is what my teacher tells me. However, I do agree with her that my intonation isn't perfect and it needs work.
Anyway thanks to everyone for your quick answers!
Andrew, I can't agree that slightly-off intonation is acceptable at the beginner level -- although I see where you're coming from on this point; but I would definitely call it more forgivable at that level -- just as 2+2=5 is more forgivable for a kid just starting basic addition than it is for an advanced math student -- but still not acceptable.
A good teacher, a teacher of discretion, wouldn't pounce on the beginner in addition, or the beginner in violin, by saying, "You know better than that" -- something he would be justified in telling the advanced student; but he would still stop the beginner, point out right from wrong, and try to fix the problem.
Though, again, intonation was one of my stronger points from the first lessons, mine isn't perfect, either -- no one's is -- I'm never satisfied. I keep remembering, every practice session, what one of my teachers said: "Never be satisfied. Always be very critical of yourself."
Andrew , a good teacher of music corrects his or her students poor intonation in the beginning lessons so that progress becomes easier and the music is more enjoyable.An example of a teacher who should change carriers is a teacher who notices the poor intonation and does nothing to improve it . These teachers are not even worth 5 dollars an hour.There are a lot of teachers out there that think intonation is something that is learned over time ,this concept is absolutely incorrect. We learn to play in tune NOW, TODAY and then we become more consistent over time.
Don't worry about what type of temperaments to learn from,our minds are hard wired for Just Intonation (PURE).We can fallow out of tune temperaments like Equal and Pythagorean ,but our mind will revert us back to Just temperament when we play solo, with strings or vocals.Keep in mind ,that this will only happen if your mind controls our fingers,when we play consistently out of tune our fingers are retraining the mind from what is natural.The best way to learn to play in tune is to hear a in tune note first ,then you repeat it.It's all about minds thinks first ,fingers second.
I was where you are , keep up the good work.
Charles
My teacher recently got me a book called "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony"
If you can tell that you're playing out of tune when you listen to yourself in a recording, you don't have a problem with intonation, you have a listening problem. The first step is to hear what you're playing when you play it, not later in a recording. If you can't do that, no "system" is going to help you.
I'm quite puzzled. It sounds like you have been with this teacher for a long time, and that your technical development is sufficient to qualify for some sort of conservatory? So why has your teacher not been pointing out ALL ALONG that your intonation is off, and giving you appropriate materials & instruction? Letting you get this far & then sending you to a machine doesn't feel right to me AT ALL. I'd be looking for a new teacher. Sue
Well I started the violin about 4.5 years ago and have completed ameb eighth grade which is the equivalent to abrsm diploma (It is the grade before the Associate Diploma or AMusA). My teacher is a fine violinist and if you had read the posts properly I stated she told me I've always played a bit high. And if I didnt make it clear, she does correct my intonation at lessons BUT she was giving me professional feedback after a performance (not a lesson), as she knows that I will be pursuing a professional career in violin. She was stating the important things that need work and the things that I need to overcome technically to get to the next level.
And I obviously didn't make it clear that my intonation issues are not on the scale of playing an F sharp as an E or D. The intonation issues are like playing an F less than a quarter tone off.
My teacher will be 'handing' me to an associate professor at the conservatorium soon so I wouldn't worry Sue.
And James I see you're from Australia? Do you or did you study at the Sydney Conservatorium Of Music?
There is no intonation system for stringed instruments because they are flexible pitched instruments.
The notes are tuned according to the scale degrees and will need adjustment in ascending and decending pasages as well as adjustment for double stops and when playing with fixed pitched instruments.
I can't resist jumping in on this discussion...although I imagine there are others much more qualified to answer your question!
It sounds like your teacher wants to break you of your habit of playing a little sharp, so the most straightforward way to do this is to play with something that has consistent tuning, such as a tuner or piano. I don't know if the intention is that you are always to play with this intonation (I doubt it), but is sounds like a good exercise if you're stuck at something like A456 and can't get out of it. I imagine that when your ear allows you to be more flexible, then you can add the color back into your playing by using whichever intonation system fits the situation.
Thanks to Duffin, the increasing prominence of chamber music, the early music movement, and probably some other factors I can't name right now, there's finally motion away from the "expressive intonation" of Casals/Delay et al. It's really not a viable system vertically. One of the worst casualties is Paganini's 20th caprice: how many otherwise excellent players begin it with a hideously out of tune tenth between the open D and F#, for no better reason than that they were taught to always tune F# as a leading tone to G, and put it high accordingly?
I'm not a total partisan against expressive intonation. I still find that virtuoso passagework sounds best when tuned in this way. For the same reason for which we trill wide whole-steps and narrow half-steps for the sake of acoustic clarity, intervals come out more clearly in passagework when exaggerated slightly. But as a general principle, it seems to me hopelessly at odds with the harmonic series.
Hey Jude,
Quite so.
Bart (who has been to Liverpool last week)
H
"There is no intonation system for stringed instruments because they are flexible pitched instruments. The notes are tuned according to the scale degrees and will need adjustment in ascending and decending pasages as well as adjustment for double stops and when playing with fixed pitched instruments."
This is simply not true. The violin is not really that flexible because intonation is so dependent on the quality of resonance of each different note.
This is not so for most other instruments. For example, E natural HAS to ring, and it doesn't matter what scale you're playing, or who you're playing with. If you decide you must match your pianist and your notes are technically perfectly matching the piano but not resonating properly on the violin, you'll just sound out of tune anyway. One does NOT have to know anything about tuning systems to play in tune. You just have to listen to the resonance of the instrument. You can quibble with 3rds and leading tones (which most beginners play too wide), but you have to start by getting the open string tones and notes that derive from them to resonate properly.
"For example, E natural HAS to ring, and it doesn't matter what scale you're playing, or who you're playing with. If you decide you must match your pianist and your notes are technically perfectly matching the piano but not resonating properly on the violin, you'll just sound out of tune anyway"
So what then?
<<<The violin is not really that flexible because intonation is so dependent on the quality of resonance of each different note.>>>
Then what is happening when I play the chord ( G, E )......open G string and 1st finger on D string. Then....immediately after I play the chord ( E, A ) .......1st finger on the D string and the open A string........to me this chord sounds out of tune if I fail to flex the stopped note E...........?
I feel compelled to make micro adjustment to avoid...........WAH...WAH...WAH...WAH...
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October 22, 2010 at 03:20 AM ·
Is your intonation correct according to any system at all? I suspect that that ought to be your first challenge and I would choose string quartet (or solo) intonation which is just intonation. There is an excellent book about this that I referenced here.