pedagogy for Bach

September 30, 2010 at 10:18 PM ·

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that any note values are ambiguous. I believe that any note values Bach wrote are of the utmost importance, but that because the repertoire was meant to be expressed with a certain degree of soul, that bowing wasn't thought of in as strict regard as it might be for more modern music. A performer can slur together a group of notes as a matter of personal choice when it's not written in the manuscript by means of slurs or other bow markings like ^ o r( [ ) turned 90% clockwise.

In folk traditions that claim to be descended from the baroque period and possibly pre baroque, free bowing is encouraged. That is, for folk dance music the violin players all bow similar dances slightly differently. In modern times that has brought out the study of bowing patterns, which in my opinion is hair splitting. Do all violinists read Bach as if all notes are détaché  (each note with a separate bow) that are not marked otherwise, assuming that they are starting on a down bow on the first beat of first full measure?

September 30, 2010 at 11:46 PM ·

Joseph, there were actually quite a lot of conventions, especially for bowing (for which the rules were pretty specific, although there were exceptions in Italy) including for unwritten slurs.  Leopold Mozart spelled out a great deal in his book of 1756. 

http://www.archive.org/details/treatiseonthefun007087mbp

October 1, 2010 at 02:02 AM ·

 Bach's original slurs can be seen in the manuscript included at the end of the Galamin edition. Barenreiter should also have fairly authentic slur markings.

Slurs are not related to position, but to the emphasis placed on notes. Generally, the first of a group gets the emphasis. That's why one shouldn't change duple slurs to a slur over 4 notes as this will change the musical meaning. One may, though, split up a long slurred passage if it's not made obvious. This is often done to get more sound or end up with a certain bow direction.

October 1, 2010 at 02:33 AM ·

You can also get the manuscript here:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Violin_Partita_No.1,_BWV_1002_%28Bach,_Johann_Sebastian%29

...and incidentally, as has been mentioned here before there is an unedited version of the music over at the Werner Icking archive which is basically an urtext.  It even lays the music out on the page the same way as the manuscript and includes peculiarities which are often edited out such as the thirds at the end of the 4th bar of the Allemanda in the 2nd Partita.

October 1, 2010 at 12:25 PM · Just to be clear, detache' means only down-up-down-up. It is not a staccato bowing per se. Wasn't sure from the context of your question. Sue

October 1, 2010 at 01:03 PM ·

It takes a lifetime to learn and understand Bach.  I know that seems daunting now but I try to look at it as a very exciting journey.  I've been playing bach for nearly 20 yrs now and I can tell you that I have changed my perception many times.

Currently I have gotten rid of all printed editions of Bach and only look at his beautiful manuscript in the back of the Galamian edition.  It really tells me all I need to know about what Bach wanted.

Your questions are insightful and if you are so very interested in learning more about Bach you may want to become more familiar with what instruments Bach was working with, most specifically the baroque bow and pure gut strings.  If you ever get a chance to play on a baroque violin with baroque bow you will very quickly come to understand this music in a more intimate manner.  The baroque bow teaches you how to play Bach like nobody's business.  By the way, I don't believe detache was even a term used back then.

I have found this book immensely helpful to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Bachs-Solo-Violin-Works-Performers/dp/030012466X

October 1, 2010 at 08:43 PM ·

Right, detache is just the modern technique which most closely approximates the natural articulation of the baroque bow.

Although the Schröder book is certainly worthwhile, it gives an introductory summary of baroque conventions and then approaches the music in a manner of dipping in to discuss structural aspects and the more unusual technical issues for which a knowledge of baroque conventions provides solutions.

The L. Mozart book I linked above provides much more detail about the conventions.

October 2, 2010 at 01:58 PM ·

Yes the Mozart book is very important as well.  I love these old treatises you can find such funny stuff on it.

Here's an exerpt from CPE's book about keyboard technique:

"Teachers try to make ammends for a stiff left hand by teaching their students to favor their right and garnish adagio or expressive passages with a wealth of pretty little trills to the revulsion of good taste.  These are often interchanged with senile pedantic embellishments and fumbling, inept runs in the playing of which the fingers seem to grow choleric."

There are some doozies in the mozart as well.

October 2, 2010 at 02:51 PM ·

Thanks for these responses!. I will get the Mozart book. and the other one that was mentioned.

Yes détaché and staccato are different things, but staccato notes are detached.

What I meant by slurring was referring to an example from the second (B) part of the last movement (presto) of the first sonata, in measures 17 - 20. I have played most of this piece in first position up until this point. In measure 17 - 20 there are slur markings that imply shifting positions because if you were to play the notes that are slurred in first position, it would be necessary to cross strings and then then leap over a string to get back down to a low note (maybe somebody might choose to do this?), even though the 4 notes slurred are no more than a major third in range.

October 2, 2010 at 11:10 PM ·

Many argue that Bach was a very accomplished violinist, and in any case position changes were not uncommon late in the baroque, they were just sort of treated as a nuisance much like climbing a tree--you had to be careful about getting back down.

That said, string crossings are faster and easier with a baroque bow, and in many  instances the resulting articulation and phrasing fits his music well.

THAT said, I note without comment that the fairly recent Golan edition, which purports to be a historically informed one, has measures 71-72 (your 17-18) in 3rd, and 73-74 (your 19-20) in 2nd position.

Just as a point of interest:  unless I need more coffee it looks as though the Galamian edition has 71-72 in first position and 73-74 in 2nd.

October 4, 2010 at 05:38 PM ·

I have a Peters edition of the partitas and sonatas edited by Carl Flesch which I bought recently and it has the original Bach score printed underneath, which I mostly prefer. I don't like a lot of the edited fingerings and bowings.

In fact I try to play as much of it in first position as I can. The string crossings are perectly fine with a modern bow and instrument, and this is demonstrated by many fine performances from Milstein and Menuhin, to Julia Fischer and others.

I'm sure Bach would have probably prefered the modern violinand bow, not to mention modern performers, if he could hear his compositions now. But then I'm afraid I strongly dislike the HIP performances of any of this music, since I like a full singing sound and some brilliance, and no unmusical bow surges in the slower music.