Should I put the fingers down?
Take a look at the bar 3 of Bach Partita no.2 in d minor, Gigue, which consist of the following notes group:
D-F-E-D-F Bflat-A-G-F-E-D C-D-E-D-C-E A-G-F-E-D-C
Let's assume that I stay on the first position, what I want to ask is, after I play the last F on the first group with my first finger and about to play the next note which is Bflat using my 4th finger, do I need to put the 2nd and 3rd finger down as well?
The same pattern goes to the third and fourth group of the bar, after I play the E using open string in the third group and about to play the A using the third finger on the next group, do I also need to put down my 1st and 2nd finger down?
I have been not putting those fingers down and my teacher told me that it's a bad habit and I should fix it, but I find that if i put the fingers down, my notes would become uneven. Is it okay to continue my 'bad habit'?
Thanks :)
Replies (16)
Just wanted to go a little off topic and say that I teach English as a Foreign Language and you're really very fluent. Don't worry!
I struggle with this problem. Fingers flying in the air when they should be ready to play. Definitely try to get in to good habits now as it's hard to unlearn bad ones.
:)
Thanks for the replies, and also thanks Jude for your compliment about my English ;)
I see...I guess I should relearn the piece and practice it from MM 40 again, then..phew...and does this put-the-finger-down thingy apply to descending scales as well?
Yes! Descending scales also. Everything Mr. Butler said is very good advice. It's all about preparation and efficiency.
It's what my teacher says to me! And after a few months, it starts to pay off.
My teacher has been telling me the exact same thing. It is hard to stay in the habit, but I do notice the improvement in my playing when I can remember to do it.
A lot more than "meets the eye" goes along with playing with "the fingers down." You should really ahve your teacher discuss this. Although I (clearly) learned to play with my fingers down, I prefer to think of it (now) as having my fingers "in place." because there is really no need for them to apply any pressure to the strings - since the "sounding finger" is doing that. This way, it is easier to add vibrato without thinking of lifting those lower fingers.
I'd think you probably need to go back to the beginning (sort of) and work the technique into simple music first. You can probably work up to you current playing level in about a month if you compltely abandon your current technique. (I did this with a change to my bow hold about 40 years ago, and it took me about a month to get back up to my "playing level" with the new technique.)
Andy
Well, it took me a lot more than a month to change! I was badly taught at school and had fingers flying everywhere. My (new) teacher got me to change and relax - and with so many threads about it always - to throw away my shoulder rest. What was a brilliant exercise was Kreuzer 5 - very slowly preparing notes whenever possible. So when you're playing on the E string and the next note is E flat on the A string, I had to have my fingers down on the A string ready while I was still playing the F. And then just move the bow. Sounds simple - but if you're not used to it, it's not. But worth persevering.
In regards to changing the way a student plays - and this would include such fundamental things as taking away a shoulder rest - I always say that it is like pruning a fruit tree. You can cut a tree back and re-shape it and you hope it will eventually give better and more plentiful fruit, but there is always the danger of killing the tree!
Kreutzer #8 (Ricordi edition - E major) is also a good one to think about fingers down, but whatever study you use will depend on your level. Varga had a series of finger exercises on one string. The first one works well for students that want to incorporate this notion of keeping the fingers down. "F1" is simply 1st finger and 2nd finger playing semitone, tone and then alternating between the two in a repeated pattern (say, four groups of semiquavers in one bow for each interval while doubling the alternating pattern). Then, keeping the first finger down, you repeat the pattern for second and third finger and then for third and fourth finger. If you are on the D string it means that the third and fourth fingers will finish alternating between G#A and G#A# while the first finger is on an E and the second finger on an F#. [Wouldn't it be nice to be able to put music examples in our text!]
This pattern is then reversed (tone,semitone, alternating) until you get back to the first couple of fingers. It is a relatively simple exercise (but difficult to explain in words!) which can be attempted within the first year of tuition. It sets the hand up nicely if the correct finger action and wrist position is taught. The thumb position is also important but I know this varies between schools of playing (just as bow holds vary). With Varga - who taught without a shoulder rest - the thumb position was between the first and second fingers a tone apart and more horizontal (like hitching a lift!) than is normally taught. But Varga used the thumb to 'support' the violin to some extent as no shoulder rest was being used [please don't start about shoulder rests!]
Sorry if this is a long response but the thread is a very interesting one!
I've got a question along similar lines. I know that placement of the lower-numbered fingers when the movement of the melody is descending is customary/recommended/"essential", etc. But what if a physical problem prevents this from working for you? I'll explain: Several years ago I took a few months of violin lessons, and was then forced to quit because of my work schedule (waaaaaaay too much overtime!). I didn't start playing again until this January. In the meantime, the onset of arthritis has really placed limitations on range of motion in my hands and wrists.
I tried to "teach" myself to play from January until this week . I resumed lessons (pretty much starting from scratch), and my first lesson was three days ago. My teacher informed me that I should be "pre-placing" my lower-numbered fingers on descending scales (and in descending patterns in the simple pieces I'm working on). My problem is that with my small hands and arthritis issues, this is VERY painful!!! In order to turn my hand enough to get all fingers placed at once, my wrist goes "CRACK!!", and I feel something like an electric shock go up my entire arm. My intonation has been very good on the pieces I learned by ear before I started lessons this week. If I'm very careful in my practice (so that I learn to accurately place my fingers individually, rather than all at once), is there THAT much of a down side to placing them individually? I'm 60 years old, just learning to play for my own enjoyment, and can take as long as I want/need to master each piece. I want the learning experience to be pleasant and exciting, not an exercise in pain management! Would a modification in fingering technique be justified?
Marsha,
Is there any particular reason why you have arthritis now? Have you started some new medications, such as a statin to lower cholesterol? That certainly hampered my violin playing - so I quit taking statins.
There are certain ways to play the violin and if you are unable to play it that way it will seriously limit what you will be able to play.
On the other hand, much of cello playing may be much more arthritis friendly (believe it or not, at least I have found it to be so). You might consider looking into it, but don't start playing cello without a professional cello teacher. I actually start playing every day on the cello BEFORE starting violin - it really warms up my hands, even though playing the two instruments is quite different.
Andy
As a general rule, it's good to have fingers in a descending finger pattern set in advance of sounding them. If you study the reasons for doing this, you'll get the best benefit from applying this general rule, and you'll also protect yourself from applying it in those specific situations where it may cause a disadvantage. (I'm a firm believer in refusing to do anything in one's playing out of blind obedience. You must personally experience the benefit of doing something this way or that way.)
1. Look at your fingers when you play (for example) 3,2. What do you see at the instant you lift the finger to articulate the second note? Repeat several times, to be sure that you see only the lift of the third finger. You should see no simultaneous downward movement of the second finger. No sliding of the second finger to go to its right pitch. -- These movements should be in the past, already completed, at the instant you lift the third finger.
2. If the two notes are slurred, on the same string, and played with a smooth legato continuity of string vibration, doing what is described in point 1. will result in smoothest legato. Use this as a confirmation of the described finger action and a reason to do it.
3. Expect that both fluency and intonation will benefit, as placing a finger earlier, rather than later, gives you more time to set it accurately. This, in turn, increases the probability of the note being in tune and on time.
4. *Depending on the rhythm and tempo of the music*, it is sometimes better to set only one finger in advance, rather than two or three, as the time taken to set three fingers *might* disturb the rhythm by causing a hesitation before the first of the the group of notes.
Andrew --
No, it's not medication-related. I had a number of work-related stress/over-use injuries during the time I wasn't playing the violin. It's catching up with me now.
Because of budget limitations (and the instrument's more challenging portability), the cello isn't an option for me.
The repertoire I plan to develop doesn't include anything that's technically mind-boggling. I'm hoping to eventually be able to develop a good vibrato and perfect various bowing techniques, but I don't plan on trying to keep up with the local symphony orchestra violinists. I just want to enjoy playing without pain or damaging my left wrist and hand any further.
I have been trying to keep all my fingers down - it's hard, especially 2 and 3 (the 2nd finger would move/slide when I put the 3rd finger down for a whole-step), and like Marsha, I encounter pain - in the 2nd joint of my index finger, and sometimes in my wrist (I don't think I have arthritis). It's getting better now that I practice in front of a mirror, pay close attention to my hand and wrist alignment, and micro-adjust my finger shapes to alleviate discomfort. I just got a copy of Louis Kievman's Practicing The Violin - Mentally, Physically, and it looks like the first 3 exercises will really help solidify the left hand frame and finger positions (Thanks Buri for the recommendation!), if only I can keep my 2nd finger from moving and still play 2-3 whole-step trills. Does anyone have suggestions about how to keep my 2nd finger still? Thanks!
"If I'm very careful in my practice (so that I learn to accurately place my fingers individually, rather than all at once), is there THAT much of a down side to placing them individually? I'm 60 years old, just learning to play for my own enjoyment, and can take as long as I want/need to master each piece. I want the learning experience to be pleasant and exciting, not an exercise in pain management! Would a modification in fingering technique be justified?"
Marsha, for me, it's a choice between continuing to try to figure out my own ways, and following the tried-and-true ways that 99.9% of good violinists have been using. Apparently the first path would be more difficult down the road. Like you, I have very small hands. My teacher likens my playing as "playing cello on the violin" - I have had to rock/twist my left hand, employ micro-shifting, and have my fingers in the air most of the time in order to reach notes on a violin that's too large for me. I have managed fine so far, but it definitely takes a lot more hard work than if I can have a stable hand position, and leave all my fingers down. I'm currently trying out smaller violins - I can finally reach, but, alas, old habits are hard to break... It's definitely not worth risking injury to modify fingering technique, but I have found that adjusting the angle of my fingers really helps. I may never have a picture-perfect hand and finger placement, but I believe that trying to be as close to "correct" as possible will save me from a lot of unlearning/relearning and frustration in the future. In the end, it's all up to you, and what you want. Good luck!
This week (Lesson #2) I mentioned to my teacher the problem I was having in using my 4th finger in descending scales and placing my fingers in advance. She suggested bringing my left elbow further to the right to help me reach further across the finger board, enabling me to accomplish what I need to on the G and D strings (the A string hasn't been a problem). Much to my delight, this is really helping! I'm still very slow in getting everything correctly placed, but it's getting smoother (and the "electric jolt" in my wrist rarely happens now). Very encouraging!! :)
Ugh!!! I still can't keep my 2nd finger from slipping when I put the other fingers down. There seems to be a stretching issue between 2 and 3 even when I play a 1/2 size. I don't think I can play anything smaller... My teacher and I spent almost the entire lesson yesterday trying to solve this issue to no avail. Any suggestions and ideas on how to fix this will be greatly appreciated. I don't think supergluing my 2nd finger to the fingerboard is such a good idea...
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May 28, 2010 at 01:09 AM ·
Follow the advice of your teacher! I haven't got the excerpt in front of me but in general you should try to put fingers down in blocks so that if you are putting a fourth finger down then the other fingers should go down underneath. It makes for a more organised left hand. This will mean that sometimes you are 'lifting' fingers to make notes rather than putting them down. This also means that the fingers 'underneath' need to be in the correct pattern (they should be 'diatonically' correct). There are exceptions to the rule of keeping your fingers down (vibrato for instance) but the concept of putting all of your fingers down in the correct patterns on each string is an important one to master (and a very difficult one to attain if you haven't been in the habit of doing this before). Usually it is best to work on a simple study (the first bar of Kreutzer #2 is actually a not the easiest one with which to set out - I would suggest other studies). Trying to get this concept in your piece when you are thinking about all sorts of other issues is not easy but I am sure your teacher is aware of that.