Third finger (bow hand)
After 20 plus years, I've just noticed that if I curl the third finger so the entire top segment (nearest the nail) touches the bow stick/frog, and the stick basically rests in the joint, everything feels much more stable and secure. The rest of my fingers seem to curve in sympathy, and my bow hold doesn't slide around the stick. Still, watching youtube vidoes of different violinists, I see many third fingers look like mine usually does...somewhat straight and resting on the stick, but not curling around it. I'm not sure I should make the change. Any thoughts?
Replies (15)
Third finger over stick and touching frog across the eye keeps the knuckles flat and the hand relaxed.
gc
I use & teach the placement of ring finger described by both Buri & Graham. In addition to their rationales, I think that having the ring finger pad relatively firmly in place as described helps keep the bow from wobbling in the hand, and helps the thumb stay bumped out. There are surely many variations based on hand size and finger lengths. Also those who pronate a lot , often called "Russian grip", more or less use the ring finger instead of the pinky as the counterbalance. Sue
The bow-grip which has quite recently revolutionized my playing is as follows: second finger top joint (i.e., joint at tip of finger, nearest nail) resting on the stick; third (ring) finger resting on the stick between top joint and tip, i.e., a little above the top joint or more toward the nail; fourth finger tip on the side of the top of the stick as usual; and (this was the revolutionary part for me!) the first finger resting lightly on the stick between the top two joints, even "pointing" straight out at first until I got used to letting it rest on the stick, anything but curl around the stick, because that creates rigidity and stiffness and hinders a lot of the off-the-string bowings being in control. All the fingers are fairly close together, not spread out and tense around the bow as if grasping a life-line. The wrist is pretty straight, with generally little if any arching (pronation of the bow, where necessary, is done by rolling it in the fingers, not by arching the wrist). Our conductor, who at different times in his career was concertmaster of a number of professional orchestras, showed me this bow-grip and said he had arrived at it by observing how the "greats" hold their bows and analyzing the basic components. In this basic bow grip, the ring finger (and the all-important first finger!) would not be curved around the bow, actively gripping it, though occasionally the third finger might pinch or grip the frog for something like compression chords. I think it is good to be able to do a number of different things with the bow-grip, depending on what the passage requires; but I have found this very helpful as a basic starting point!
The bow hold that you have "discovered" sounds like "the Russian hold" that Sue Bechler mentions. Take a look at David Oistrakh playing. Oistrakh playing Claire de Lune
It worked for him! I have recently switched to it and have found a lot of advantages for expressive playing. But I'd suggest you work this with a teacher. It has not been simple to get the full benefits.
Hey, Mike, You have that backwards :) The grip that has the hand tipped, or pronated, a lot, so that the ring finger is close to the stick, or on the stick & taking over the counterbalance function (sometimes with pinky floating) is a "Russian Grip". This idea for ring-finger pad placement is a common version of a Franco-Belgian grip, and also often seen in Suzuki circles. I teach ring-finger pad more or less touching the frog's eye. I like the middle two fingers over to add stability w/o tightness. Many young players have trouble with the bow rolling in their hands, or the grip sliding up the stick, and Buri's "gluey" pad helps both problems. Sue
Hey, Sue, I don't think so :-) I hope we are not splitting hairs. Take a look at my link above to David Oikstrakh. His ring finger pad is on the side of the frog. I have learned the Russian hold from a line of Russian teachers, and the defining characteristic, as I see it, is the placement and movement of the thumb. The fingers move from time to time as needed by the music, but the thumb stays "hooked under" with constant movement in the Russian hold.
Watch Zvi Zeitlin, Oleh Krysa, or Mikhail Kopelman's thumbs next time you have a chance.
Greetings,
we are probaly all describing the same elephant, but actually the defining feature of the Russian bow hold is the position of the index finger (on the base joint). Everything else stems from that and may be subject to some variety depending on physique.
Cheers,
Buri
Stephen, I encourage you to click on the Oikstakh link that I posted above and look at his index finger. David has it in several positions, but it is not on the base joint much of the time. I have the same situation in my playing. The index finger joint touching the bow changes depending on bow position and expressions that I create. Some people have fixed hand positions on the bow; some of us have fluid positions for the fingers depending on our expressions. But one thing that does not change is the "hooked" thumb position on the frog and the thumb's constant motion during each bow stroke. Watch David do it.
Mike, does the hooked thumb change in any other approach?
I had a teacher whose teacher's teacher was Ysaye, and she taught me to keep that thumb position constant.
I assume that Ysaye was Franco-Belgian.
gc
Graham: sorry, I don't know the answer to your question. You might give thumb movement a try, but get help from a teacher. I found it initially complicated, and some muscle building is required.
Helen: glad you enjoyed Oistrakh. The link is still there - just click on the colored phrase Oistrakh playing Claire de Lune, and it will take you there. That video does not show the thumb movement well. I posted it originally to show fingers touching the side of the frog. A short glimpse of his thumb happens at 2:25 to 2:35, but movement is not well shown. Look at his turn-around near the violin and try to imagine how the thumb has to move to match the finger movement. Then at the bottom of the stroke the thumb points down to the floor. As the bow comes back up, the thumb comes up also. The thumb is both an accelerator and a shock absorber - as needed. This released, fluid movement creates Oistrakh's fluid sound.
My teacher had me learn to hold the bow between the thumb and fingers 2 and 3. The index finger rests on top for control, colle' strokes, etc. and the pinky is on top near the violin but releases at the bottom of the stroke. You can see that in Oistrakh's stroke. This takes muscle development of the pinky. Do "windshield wiper" exercises (30 -50 per day) using only the pinky to build up strength, but do it over a sofa, because the bow may drop when first starting. Once all this gets co-ordinated, do circular motion turnaround exercises with all the fingers (and thumb) moving. It is more complicated to learn, but as David shows, fluid sound becomes easy to do and many other nuanced sounds become easy. It has paid off for me.
I'm happy to meet someone else who values released, fluid movement.
Greetings,
Mike, I assure you that after studying Oistrakh and hundreds of violinists for the last forty years I know what they look like, but thanks anyway;
Actually you are using terminology without a very clear sense of the history of the development of bow technique , especially in regard to Russia and subsequently the Soveit Union. Nor do you seem to be familiar with the very clear and almost universally accepted writings on the subject by Flesch, Galamian et al.
The Russian bow hold (this is the term most usually used) evolved pre oistrakh and as Flesch pointed out , the future of bowing will be determined by which hold achieves general supremacy. He was quite clear that the The defining feature of this bow hold is where the stick is placed on the index finger and the effect of the subsequent hand position and us e of the arm,. It uses a moderately slack hair as a rule and fast bow speed.
The hold you are incorrectly describing as Russian (although it is in the sense that modern Rusiian players use it in a wide variety of forms) is actually Soviet era (thats when Oistrakh lived) and the Oistrakh bowhold is actually his version of the Franco Belgian which he felt was superior to the Russian. He basically imported this approach into the Soveit Union under the influence of Grumiaux. It is characterized by rather tight bow hair and a rather tilted bow among other things. Many of todays players carry this tradition such as Igor Oistrah and his student Zhakar Bron who remain a big influence on how the young Russian students of today play.
Buri (not Stephen- thank you very much)
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on this issue. I've adopted the "gluey" third finger pad and I'm very happy with the results. The sound is more resonant, my whole hand feels more relaxed and "springy" and it feels much easier to control the tilt of the bow and the contact point. Of course, things change slightly depending on the color of sound desired...
Yes, Oistrakh had a personal version of the franco-belgian hold, not a Russian hold. I believe Heifetz, Milstein and Kavakos use the Russian hold. Many Russians do not.
Here is another source from an interview with Charles Castleman in which he states:
"Both Galamian and Oistrakh would be regarded as being from the Franco-Belgian School(bowing) and they were my "bowing influences". Further on in the interview he states:
"And the main thing that Oistrakh gave to me had to do with the right wrist because I had three teachers with very different points of view: the Sevcik point of view with the right wrist is that it should be stationary and basically immobile. Galamian ( I would say unfortunately) doesn't seem to say anything about the right wrist, so he didn't do anything about what was going on, and Oistrakh made it loose because he was very much {inclined to} flexibility in the right wrist."
There are other violinists interviewed all giving their take on the differences between the various "schools" but my understanding, as with Buri's, is that the point where the index finger touches the bow is the key difference between the different schools.
The full interview is here:
http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/submitted/etd-11182005-160349/unrestricted/BakerCTreatise.pdf
As for the flexible thumb, it would seem to me that that would be a part of every violin school- I have seen flexible players associated with the Russian, Franco-Belgian and German ( or some claim it is also the old French school) schools of violin playing and have never gotten the impression that the thumb was immobilized.
Perhaps I am not understanding just what is so unique about Oistrakh's thumb position- would you be willing to video your thumb movements so we could understand more clearly since the videos of Oistrakh I have seen do not show what he's doing with the thumb particularly clearly.
In any case, there is no doubt that Oistrakh is one of the greatest violinists and greatest musicians ever to have lived and his remarkable qualities extend beyond just his tone. His taste in Mozart is impeccable. His sensitivity as a chamber musician is remarkable. His sense of timing, the subtle changes with vibrato and shadings in the bow are elegant and heartfelt- in sum, he has few equals and we must all be grateful for his having lived and given us such a wonderful legacy.
Hm... I wonder.... what I heard is that towards the end of his career, Oistrakh actually changed his bow grip to Russian. Dunno if any footage of that exists.... but I wonder if *that* can be the reason for the confusion here. I've heard that he changed from several people I trust... so, I have to think there is truth to that. However, I would not characterize his playing as "franco-belgian" since his bow arm (NOT talking about grip here, just arm) is Russian (from the arm). One can call this a "hybrid" (and I've also heard it referred to as the "soviet" school). The only violinist on The Art of Violin that seems strictly franco-belgian (both bow arm and grip, if memory serves correctly) is Zino Francescatti. He's rather textbook franco-belgian, while Milstein is textbook Russian.
In answer to your original question.... no one can answer that. It depends on what bow grip you are using. For Russian, one answer would apply and for franco belgian, quite another. Actually a great place to see various grips is, once again, Art of Violin. It never fails to study the greatest violinists of all-time. :) And then, of course a teacher. Because whichever method you study must be learned in precise detail. Even a millimeter off and you'll never get that comfort, control, or sound.... so having someone help you is essential, even if you've already studied x amount of years.... even concert-level soloists took lessons when switching their technique. It's a big project. Best of luck.
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February 3, 2010 at 05:45 AM ·
Greetings,
it varies according to the kind of sound one wishes to produce but personally I prefer having the pad in a good gluey contact with the frog. Te reason for this is it then has the capacity to be use din emphasizing notes by an increase in contact with the frog. This kind of third finger tone production and cloration should be experimented with.
Cheers,
Buri