How do you learn conducting?

December 20, 2008 at 08:55 AM ·

Conducting is part of the curriculum offered by conservatories, for example ...

www.rcm.ac.uk/Studying/Professors+and+Faculties/Conducting

December 20, 2008 at 01:35 PM ·

As a young conductor myself, Charles, I have nothing but encouragement for anyone who wants to become a conductor. It's exhilirating and highly rewarding. I don't know how old you are -- if you're still in school, it's the best time to start.

 You can start by taking classes in conducting at the college level. I started off by taking instrumental and choral conducting as electives to fill out my performance degree. Later, I did independent study in conducting during my Master's, and then studied privately with a very fine conductor here in New Jersey. 

 The best thing I've found, from a practical perspective, is to carefully study the conductors that you work with as a player. Look at what works, and more importantly, what doesn't -- which rehearsal techniques get the desired result, and which end up confusing the orchestra; left hand technique, and how conductors express emotion with the baton (and whether that emotion is communicated clearly), and so on. You can also study movement, like an actor preparing for a role, to use you arms and hands (and face) to convey what you want. 

Talk to conductors and tell them you're interested -- most conductors, I've found, are helpful people, despite evidence to the contrary in some cases. They'll be able to put you on the right track. And good luck!

December 20, 2008 at 04:40 PM ·

Charles, you're a junior in HS, right? Or am I confusing you with someone else...

Oh well. At my school, there is an internship program and you go to the profession you're interested in and you just see what it's about. With me, there aren't really internships for a performing violinist, but there could be for a music teacher. So that's what I think I'll do my senior year... Be an intern for an orchestra teacher. Maybe this is something you could do. Or you could intern under the conductor of your state's symphony.

You just have to ask around and try to get good conections.

And no, conducting isn't just about leading the orchestra. From watching someone work, like Daniel Harding, I've picked up on a lot of things. He finds the things that are wrong with what the orchestra is doing, and fixes them. He tells the orchestra what he wants, and most importantly communicates that to them properly. If you want to see someone like him work, go to YouTube and watch this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uQ_9yl5IiI&feature=channel_page (it has six parts)

December 22, 2008 at 02:04 AM ·

Very cool.

@ Michael (Benjamin too): thanks for the advice.  One problem which I have is that I won't be going to a music school (I'm a senior in HS but taking my coursework at university) next year.  I may minor in music, but am definitely not going into performance.  Also, I have not played under a lot of conductors, so I don't have the same experience a lot of 'veteran' players have.

@ Paul: cool video.  I started watching it but don't have time to finish right now but it was pretty interesting.  Shouldn't conducting be harder than listening to the orchestra, though?  It would appear that it is much harder than just listening to wrong notes or errors in interpretation or whatnot.

Questions to all:

What is this "studying the score" I hear about a lot?  What makes a 'good' conductor?  (Like, is it more important to be a good musician or more charismatic?)  What is it like conducting an orchestra?

Curious,
Charles

December 22, 2008 at 04:25 AM ·

To be a good conductor, You need:

-An exagerrated sense of self importance

-The ability to wave your arms in a magnificentally inspiring manner

-The ability to do the above and be COMPLETELY ignorable by the people in front of you

-The ability to sing very poorly

HINT: SARCASM, hint HINT ;>) 

In all seriousness a conductor needs to be able to think listen and move all at the same time. Here is the Marc Bettis Patented Rant on Things I've Seen Conductors Not Have And Drove me Batty.  Forgive the length.

A GOOD conductor:

-Knows the music score TOP to BOTTOM.  He knows who has the melody when.  He knows who has counter melody.  He knows the doublings.  He knows the bass line and the chord progression.  

-He knows ALL the transposings instruments transpositions subconciously--if someone plasying Eb clarinet asks if they are supposed to "really" be playing written Bb or A--he would know the concert pitch they are referring to.

-The good conductor is at least informed on the techniques of playing all the instruments, such that he can understand their problems.  For example, few things annoy a section violinist more than having a conductor, who openly admits being clueless about violin technique, recommend bowings to them that are physically impossible or foolish/stupid.

-He is able to move his body in a manner that is necessary to show his interpretation of the music-that is NECESSARY to inform the performers he has of what he wants.  Too little-and no one can tell what to do.  To much over the top-and it is obnoxious.  He is able to move in such a manner that ANYONE can see his pattern from anywhere in the orchestra front or side (something many starting conductors miss)

-He is able to listen to all of the above, whilst moving and decide on the fly what is and is not working in terms of balance, and who is not listening.  He is able to hear and know who should tune to who and why.  He is able to remember all of this to go back and correct it and coach on it.

-He knows how to rehearse and what to rehearse BEFORE the orchestra comes in.  He has a plan as to what needs done-and is flexible enough to do what needs done for the players.  

-Every time he stops his orchestra he has at a minimum of 2-3 things to address.  In  rehearsing-the biggest folly of beginner conductors is they talk too much (I mean that).  

-A good conductor should NOT need to sing to his orchestra to tell them what he wants, except when all else fails--leave the music making to the orchestra....this last one applies to pro and higher caliber groups groups far more than student groups.

-The conductor knows his musicians, and knows when they are playing well, and having an off night.  He knows when something truely needs corrected--or if they just made a stupid mistake they are unlikely to make again.

December 22, 2008 at 04:07 AM ·

Greetings,

yep. And they are few anbd far between. Baremboim is the one who springs to mind who is described accuratley here...

Cheers,

Buri

December 22, 2008 at 06:11 AM ·

Hi Charles,

Everything said above is necessary to be a good conductor, and the best conductors include inspiring the orchestra to play beyond itself at the top of the list. It takes leadership as well as musicianship.

To answer your question, studying the score is just that -- learning the score the way you would learn the violin part to play it. Many conductors are proficient on piano, and can reduce the full score at the piano, meaning to boil it down to the major lines that are most important (I'm not one of them). If you can't do that, and I certainly can't, the next best thing is to be able to play the parts on your major instrument, at sight and in the right transposition.

Marking or preparing the score is really important, too. Many conductors will use colored pencils or highlights to give themselves a "road map" of the score -- one color for the major melody line, another for dynamic changes, another for countermelodies, and so on. All that is so you can start to internalize the score and get to know it. That way, when you get up in front of the orchestra for rehearsal, you can begin to take it apart and rehearse particular lines, rhythms, chords, etc.

December 23, 2008 at 04:32 AM ·

I had the privilege to play (one night) in the orchestra for the Herbert Blomstedt Conducting Master Class in June 1973.  It was enough to see what a true master conductor can do.  He was incredible (this was a few years before he was made Music Director of the San Francisco Symphony).

The conducting students in the class were all "conductors" at the college and university level. I have since played under several students of earlier and later Blomstedt master classes (some before they passed - some who had to take it twice to pass). Not bad conductors, generally, but what a difference.

Anyhow, when you ask what it takes to be a conductor - its like asking what it takes to be a violinist. The difference between fiddling square dances, playing in church, playing in orchestra, playing chamber music, and virtuoso soloist. There are "violinists" at all those levels (and beyond) - and equivalently there are "conductors" with equivalent ability and lack thereof.

To get the basic technique of beating time with a stick - you can get a book and follow what it says to do. It is possible to copy the techniques of great conductors (personally, I don't think there are that many of them) and completely lack the ability to communicate musically with the musicians of the orchestra.  On the other end of the spectrum are conductors (I've seen such in small church "band"/choir combos) who could conduct people playing behind them, their who bodies communicate what they want.

You do have to know the music, what you want it to sound like, and how to get others to follow you there.

If you ever watched an old Danny Kay movie in which he conducted an orchestra, you would think he really knew what he was doing - it looked good to me! Maybe he did!

Andy

December 23, 2008 at 10:44 PM ·

Besides all that's been said here, it's good to do some research, and see what has been written about the subject. As with all things, there's a balance to theory and applications and it doesn't hurt to get a good handle on the subject matter even if you don't agree with everything that the authors of these works have to say:

Max Rudolf has an excellent primer called "The Grammar of Conducting" that is well worth looking over for basics. He poses a number of questions to the reader that are a platform for further study regarding beat patterns, different ensemble combinations, score study, etc.

Elizabeth Green's "The Modern Conductor" is an interesting work because of it's focus on conducting as a "time-space" art. Conducting gestures are a function of their shape, speed, duration, etc.

There are many more...do a search on Amazon.com or check out the library at your local University system. Out where I am in California, the UC/CSU system libraries have near-ridiculous amounts of texts on conducting...one of the classes I participated in had every single person go check out a few different volumes, read then, and summarize their most important points.

For people who are non-string players (I'm sure we all have friends who don't play violin/viola...gasp!) I also recommend that they check out Elizabeth Green's "Orchestral Bowings and Routines" as it covers a wealth of information that is invaluable to the "band conductor." ;)

December 24, 2008 at 10:11 AM ·

All this sounds really interesting.  Thanks for the pointer Gene, I'll check into it after the break (I'm in Japan right now ;)) - I'm sure the library has plenty of books on conducting, I didn't think about that.

Besides theoretical stuff, how does one get actual practice conducting?  I have conducted a real (high school) orchestra a total of one times for thirty seconds.  Basically it was a total flop because I didn't know what I was doing, but my point is this - it's obviously hard for beginners to get conducting experience before anybody actually wants them conducting.  How do they usually start?  Do they have a mentor who lets them conduct their orchestra?  Or do they just take a class on conducting and it goes from there?  Or are those equivalent :P?  Are there orchestras/bands/ensembles just for beginning conductors (like the NYP apparently ><)?

Sorry for all the questions, my mind is like a badger. 
(That means it badgers.)
((Sorry again, this time for the bad joke.))

Charles

December 25, 2008 at 09:49 AM ·

Ask away, that's what this board is for. :)

I think it's actually quite hard for people to get into conducting, compared to say, playing violin in an orchestra. My first major experience conducting (and not just in a conducting class or with a small ensemble at school to practice) was at a summer music camp where I worked with junior high orchestra and high school band. It was my "boot camp" as a young conductor...I spent a month conducting groups three to five hours a day, and during my off hours I worked on my skills, did score study, and picked my teacher's brain for assistance. The directors of the camp and my conducting teacher gave me this great opportunity, and I will always be indebted to them for their support.

Prior to that, I took a year of class and private instruction at my university, and was student conductor for two of the ensembles on campus. I didn't get a ton of "stick time" in there but it was still extremely valuable because I was able to get feedback directly from my own peers about what they felt was good, and what they found irritating/annoying/useless. I asked them to be completely ruthless in their criticism of what I was doing on the podium; it was necessary! Perhaps the most important piece of advice my teacher gave me, and the one thing I always share with new students is: "If the group is sounding bad, it is YOUR fault, not theirs."

I called, emailed, and wrote letters to conductors (or their management, if they were of sufficient prominence) asking for permission to observe their regular rehearsals (not dress rehearsals) during concert season. Once in awhile, some of them were willing to do some Q&A with me if I didn't understand what was going on. Others I was content to just be able to see the process happen. I think it's really important to watch conductors that ensembles respect and respond to...the players will do things for them beyond just playing the notes and rhythms, and it's really something to hear when they're "in the zone."

I now run a youth orchestra where I have an open application for college-age students who need conducting experience as part of their pursuits in music. With guidance from me, I put them in front of both my junior and senior ensembles first in smaller, easy-to-manage works for strings only, then progress up to larger works for full orchestra. They don't just wave the stick for the performances, but take the group through the rehearsal process. It's a great learning experience for all!

Hopefully you'll be able to find a similar organization in your corner of the planet...:)

December 25, 2008 at 06:43 PM ·

When I was a middle school student, I was concertmaster of the California Youth Symphony.  The founder/conductor, Dr. Ernst Katz took an interest in mentoring me as a conductor.  The suggestions that you find a group that will allow you this opportunity are very good. 

I might also suggest that strong leadership attributes are important to the success of any conductor.

December 26, 2008 at 07:23 AM ·

Dear Charles,

You don't have to be a music major.  Many college orchestras will audition music minors and qualified community members, and you can take courses for credit or not.  Undergraduate conducting degree programs are extremely rare.

Conducting is difficult, and listening is difficult.  Imagine doing both at once.  I am always stunned when a conductor stops and, with a quizzical expression, says something along the lines of "Second bassoon, that's a B flat in measure 572." 

A few pieces of advice from my brief stint in conducting, and experience in orchestras (forgive me if redundant):

-First, strive for clarity.
-Second, strive to look like the music.  Practice in front of a mirror, awkward though it may seem; you will catch any goofy mannerisms before others do.  My best friend told me I looked like a fish!  A humbling experience.
-Do not be wholly inflexible, but do have convictions and stand behind them.
-Piano lessons.  ASAP.
-Know as much about every instrument as possible.  Try them out if you have a chance.  Ask lots of questions of your colleagues.  Thank God you already have some grasp of bowings; next trickiest, in my opinion, is the brass section.
-One of the most difficult things of all is pacing a rehearsal; this can be intuitive, but usually comes from experience.  A good rule of thumb is to go from overall to specific back to overall: larger sections flanking the tedious part work. Unfortunately I can't take credit for that -- it came from Harvey Felder, Tacoma Symphony.

-Your goal is to communicate as much as possible in as few words as possible.  If you can sing or use conducting gestures, it is almost always better than talking.  I respectfully disagree with Marc.  Why should a musician be afraid to sing to fellow musicians?
-Following up on Michael's excellent advice, look for a mentor or two among the conductors you observe: a style and philosophy you want to emulate.  Frankly,I learned more in nine months of private lessons than I learned in group classes.
-Learn some kind of solfege.  Fixed 'do' seems prevalent in Europe, movable in many American schools.
-One of the more difficult conducting 'tasks' is following a soloist.  Just a heads-up.
-Sometimes, you have to think outside the baton, so to speak.  If the spirit moves you, just use hands.

-Develop a thick enough skin to handle being criticized on every level, from the trivial to the fundamental.
-Finally, don't forget to cultivate an attractive, charismatic personality.  You don't have to compromise your integrity, but being likable doesn't hurt and can get you out of a pinch.