The difference in graded repertoire by ASTA and Violinmasterclass

May 15, 2008 at 05:07 AM · Greetings,

the ASTA list is put together by a group rather than an individual. I think it refelcts an intention to create very specific levels that are worked out in detail and spells them out.

The mastercxlass levels rfelect the approach and sequencing of one individual tacher to a large extent. They are much broader in outline which has advantages and disatvnatages. It is a reflection of diffcult anything other than generlaizations can be in many cases. Students sometimes improve in systematic steps, sometimes make huge technical leaps thta the teahcer must be awrae of and nurture with approapriate pieces, and soemtiems even seme to be going backwards...

Cheers,

Buri

May 15, 2008 at 01:20 PM · I am not familiar with "masterclass", so I'll defer to Buri on that one. I know the (string) manual of the New York State School Music Association rather well. That document is purchased by music teachers nationwide, not just NYS. The adjudication system has a history edging towards 60 years. The manual is reviewed and updated every four years, with efforts made to keep on top of in-print/out-of-print. There is a chairperson & committee of volunteers, plus any member may send suggestions for changes of level, deletions or additions. The six levels are still quite wide from what could be called entry and exit selections, but a great source. Sue

May 15, 2008 at 01:45 PM · A great source of graded repertoire is the Canadian RCM Violin Syllabus. It is published by Frederick Harris, and is available from many fine retailers.

May 15, 2008 at 02:28 PM · That makes more sense. So something like the ASTA or RCM might be a better choice to use as I consider various pieces to play.

Thanks all!

May 15, 2008 at 02:07 PM · Why?

Everyone has a different opinion as to what steps should be taken to get from point A to point B.

The main syllabi I´ve seen internationally is the Royal Academy of Music syllabus. It really depends on the history of the country and the teacher though of course as to what you´ll see.

The NYSSMA syllabus I don´t personally like--I´ve seen more than a few NY teachers go out and abuse the Suzuki books as tune-books after getting inspiration from it---since the Suzuki books end up having a good share of the rep in the NYSSMA book already in sequence.

The main gripe I have with any repertoire syllabus-is that there is so much music out there-that gets past-over since it is not listed in some persons quick list of good pieces---as a result a great deal of music falls out of print.

-Who knows any of the other 20 some odd Viotti Concerti?

-Or the other Spohr concerti? (I recently was lucky and found a collected recording of all of them)

-Or the 19 Caprices that Kreutzer did seperately other than the 42 etudes we all know and love?

-Or all those Sitt (student) Concertos?

-Or heck, just the other movements of the Seitz Student Concerti that didn´t happen not to be favs of Suzuki-and therefore not in NYSSMA?

-People seldom play Locatelli caprices-I´ve never heard one played....I once had a recording with some of them peppered around sonatas....where is that....

-Heck, what Vivaldi concerti do people regularly know that is not either the infamous A or G minor(s) or in the 4 seasons? I mean the man only wrote what 600 some others in his life? Most of those were even aimed at sudents-bingo good student rep composed as such, all under one name. And it gets ignored.

Of course the above is only the top snowflake of the mountain of repertoire that goes mostly untouched because it doesn get listed in syllabi.

The loss in having these standard rep lists that everyone follows-is not only in music ceasing to get published anymore (If anyone knows where I could pick up the other 20 some-odd Viottis, I´d be grateful)-but in students who lose out in terms of variety and individuality and who constantly end up comparing themselves to one another on the sole ground of what piece they are playing.

Find a (great) music library and start walking going down the shelves and perusing things you are unfamiliar with-and it becomes terribly apparent quite rapidly how much is left out of most teacher/associations rep lists.

May 15, 2008 at 03:31 PM · Marc - I agree with your post completely. But I was asking because, in a much earlier post , I stated that I was playing violin solo catch-up. I've played symphonic music successfully for years, but solo studies just started recently.

So, for example in my latest solo, I'm just completing Mozart 4 for my upcoming recital. This is rated level 10 in the ASTA list, however there are other level 10 pieces I woulnd't dream of picking up for a while.

So it's not as much me wanting to play just the standard repertoire as much as me trying to pick pieces that will challenge me, but that are not so hard I get discouraged or cut corners trying to learn them.

I hope I'm going about this the right way...

May 15, 2008 at 03:29 PM · Hi,Marc,You are certainly entitled to come to your own opinion about the NYSSMA manual. But it isn't quite correct to label it a syllabus, which my dictionary defines as "a summary outline, course of study or examination requirements." Those of us using the manual understand that the scales and sight-reading chart are to put some parameters on what will be tested at each level during a once-a-year Solo Festival presentation. I don't know anyone who thinks that's it as far as level-whatever skills, thus those items are not an outline, per se. Though someone with little string pedagogy could do worse than to build a curriculum that includes everything in a particular level. The list of pieces isn't an outline or course of study by any definition. I have heard of people who only teach pieces from the manual, and who are also so misguided as to begin next year's piece the month after this year's Festival, but I will never agree with that as an instructional choice. By comparison, someone who teaches a strict Suzuki regimen IS teaching a set course of study. I am Suzuki-trained myself with many years in a school-modified Suzuki setting, and now teach privately. But I have some questions about using Suzuki books as "tune books", especially if exclusively, without other key Suzuki method/ philosophy components. Dr. Suzuki's choices, like the many printed fingerings, were in good part about involving parents, not intended as crutches for kids to avoid ever learning to read, for instance. Sue PS I'm teaching at Ithaca's ASTA camp this summer. :)

May 15, 2008 at 03:47 PM · No probs Debra, :>)

A neat way I have-go to a music library and read down the shelves at things you have not played--the neater ones to find and learn/figure out are things you have not heard of. If when sight-reading through in your head, you can wrap your mind around how to play whatever piece it is, and imagine how your technique would work to put it together--odds are you´ll be able to play it with some work (tempo and speed aside-that can be built with a metronome)--if there are open mysteries at 1st sight then odds are it will be a stretch.

If you are fluent with your 4 octave scales and Flesch book-then the main works that will faze you will be works written by composers who were not violinists. Violinist/composers may write hard stuff (i.e. Spohr, Locatelli, Kreisler, Wieniawski, etc etc.) but it often lays nicely on the fingerboard in a way that you never see from composers who are ignorant of the technique of the instrument [you probably already know this anyway ;) ]---usually on sight it is a dead give away if the composer knew the instrument or not.

Warhorse type works that everyone plays are good, they are easy benchmarks and on the whole good pieces-but I find it more rewarding personally to learn and master the less trod that I find and make my own.

Sue,

Tools can be used and abused-that is the way of things I suppose. My experience with the NYSSMA manual, was apparently one where people were abusing it, to make their lives a little easier-I suspected that might have been so at the time (I did student teaching during high-pre/post-local-NYSSMA season at a middle and a high school).

When I say ¨tune books¨ I mean as easy dictionaries of pieces; the result being that when this occurs, the teacher ¨flips the page¨ between pieces-and does not review the prior works--and the second the student starts a new piece, the start forgetting all the prior work they did to earn the last piece. Sandy Reuning is quite familiar with this and is one of his gripes of misuse (tell him I say Hi :>) )

May 15, 2008 at 05:11 PM · One reason for the differences that exist in graded repertoire is that there is no single, objective criterion for assessing difficulty.

Sassmannshaus, for instance, is perfectly forthcoming in stating that his lists are organized purely by technical criteria. Therefore, pieces such as the Mozart Concerti, which require incredible finesse and musicality are placed low on the list. I completely respect that, but on any list of mine, Mozart Concerti would not be introduced until many of the violinists' concerti had been studied in order to guarantee a secure technical foundation.

To answer the question, I think that the main reason for the differences between Sassmannshaus/VMC and ASTA is that ASTA covers a much wider range of abilities on the beginning/intermediate end, whereas VMC only really covers intermediate-advanced repertoire. From ASTA's point of view, works such as Prokofiev's Five Melodies and Saint-Saens' Intro and Rondo Capp. are both advanced, and hence place in level 10, but VMC would discern between different gradients of advanced repertoire.

May 15, 2008 at 05:42 PM · That's a good point, Ian, about the different types of musical difficulty. I haven't found the Mozart that challenging technically, but the musicality is still coming along.

Or as my teacher puts it, "Okay, you have the notes but it's not beautiful yet. Let's make it beautiful..." Aaaargh!

May 15, 2008 at 10:33 PM · Greetings,

Debra, how we percive the techncial difficulty of the Mozart concertos tends to go through shifts in tandem with our cocneption of the pieces which growas all the time as we grow musically.

However, I know many fine violnist who ruefully point out that the more obvious technical problems such as `hitting the first note in tune` can suddenly emerge on stage at the most embarassing times. You can@T egt away with antything in thes eworks. I remember an excellent series of performances by Mayumi Fujikawa on the Beeb about thirty years ago in whcih the opening of number four was botched beyond belief.

Not for nothign Heifetz claimed these were the most fdifficult cocnertos in all seriousness.

Cheers,

Buri

May 16, 2008 at 06:44 AM · It seems to me that the Asta syllabus, like the ABRSM syllabus is designed for the violin teacher who works in music schools or privately with students who are playing the instrument as part of a package of other activities in order to develop into well rounded adults whereas the VMC syllabus is designed specifically for those who wish to become highfliers in their instrument and are able to devote the hours of daily practice in order to do so.