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Szeryng/Icking S&P fingerings
After reading most of what I could find on Henryk Szeryng and his recordings of the Bach S&P, I wanted to get some opinions of the edition he edited for Schott. It's available on Shar and as digital download elsewhere, but I wanted to know if anyone had strong opinions on the value of his fingering proposals over others (I know he stresses a 4-voice approach to string character, but not much beyond that). I was also curious if he includes bowings, especially for the arpeggio sections. I recently bought his recording of the S&P (the 1968 DGG) and I think it is the best of those I've listened to carefully (Heifetz, Milstein, and this new offering by John Holloway, which is not exactly comparable).
I also found a free PDF from Werner Icking which is quite nice in that it provides fingering overlaid onto a transposition of the Urtext. I have not looked closely but I believe the bowings are the same. I may have seen a link to this document here, but I will repost a link to Icking's S&P collection in case anyone is interested:
http://www.icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/J.S.Bach.php#bach1001
It also offers a breakdown of the arpeggios. I would be curious to hear opinions on the Icking if anyone's tried it, especially versus the Szeryng. I know fingering is a personal thing, and I have my own ideas, but I'm taking a measured approach to the Ciaccona and would love any opinions on these editors. Thanks!
Replies (13)
Amen to what Buri said. I have that edition and find it uniformly excellent. This is not surprising since many people consider Szeryng's recordings of the S&Ps to be either the best or among the very best. In addition, this edition is also an urtext in that Szeryng distinguishes which bowings, etc., are Bach's and which are his edits. It also includes some materials on baroque practice (probably not enough to satisfy the A-415 crowd, but....) and Szeryng's comments on how and why he treats certain passages and notes in a particular manner. Get it and enjoy!
Thanks for the advice. I may as well mention that I didn't find the Icking edition very helpful-- at least for my hands and style-- he uses a lot of "same-finger" shifting into second position on scales, which I personally find awkward (perhaps some single-finger scales would help me there, though). More than that, he rarely provides a solution for the several moments in the Ciaccone (especially in the first variation on the theme) where to maintain the longer note fully under the dotted figure, something other than standard first position is necessary. The recordings seem to differ on this point-- some performers use a fingering that allows the transition from the sixth to augmented fourth without breaking the underlying quarter note, and some just break the quarter note off at the end of the dotted eighth and (I would imagine) use that finger for the sixteenth. (This occurs in measures 17 and 18, for instance-- where the interval in the sixteenth note is an augmented fourth as opposed to the perfect fifth which would allow the same finger to be used across the strings).
Anyway-- a digression. Thanks again and I will investigate the Szeryng.
Yes, go with Szeryng! After a few weeks trying Szigeti's awkward fingering Bach D minor Allemande, I'm switching to Szeryng's fingering. Oh, how much easier it is now!
Greetings,
now that made me snort chamomile tea up my left nostril with laughter. I actually much prefer Szigeti`s fingerings and wish the whole lot could be released. I think he was slightly more creaitve than Szeryng fingering wise. In particular I always use the ist position cbflata, 3rd position cbflata, repetition because it is such a beautiful color change. I also think is ending fingering is much cleaner and less romantic. Notice it is in a lower position.
Cheers,
Burp
Buri, I knew you prefer Szigeti's fingering. In fact I followed your advice on this for a few weeks but I just don’t get it at this point. My teacher, after congratulated me for being able to play “the most awkward” fingering she’s ever seen, kept saying “poor Yixi, poor Yixi” when she was putting the Szeryng fingering on the score. Well, all I can say is I tried, but his fingering is awkward for me and requires a lot of shifting, which is something I’m working on to improve. Maybe if I had Szigeti’s large hand, I would be able to stay on the 1st position. Certainly, I’ll be able to see your point on this issue better when I’m getting more mature musically.
What do you think his view on avoiding down bowon downbeats (note 10 on p.100, Szigeti on Violin)?
I just want to say...Szeryng's Bach S&P's are the most wonderful...imo.
he's my favorite violinist.
I have two editions of the S&P's. The international and Schott. Szeryng has wonderful edits and I particularly love his style of Bach interpretation. As Buri stated, the small differences in bowing and fingerings have a much lager effect on the music...but you should also try to get the Galamian edition. It's also a wonderfully edited version, but the real gold is the original manuscript of the S&P's which I constantly go back and refer to.
Either way, you can't go wrong with the Szeryng edition if you believe in his interpretation.
Hi,
I second what Buri said. The fingerings are thoughtful as are the bowings. I think that they are at the service of the music. That said, people who play baroque may disagree, but Szeryng thoughtfully considers the music to be played on a modern instrument and makes suggestions accordingly.
IMHO, I think that it is worth getting and for most, this is probably the best edition to start learning Bach.
Cheers!
Greetings,
Yixi, in the end its goignt o depend on your hand. Mine is very similar to Szigeti. You would look silly like that. You also have more hair,
However, one thing does spring to mind. The techniue of shifting to the same notes on differnt strtings is both sylitically and technically extremely valuable which is why Szigeti so strongly reocmmende dworking on the Kreutzer e major shifting etude in his book. Working on that one everyday will significantly improve overlal playing and make the shift on cbflata a piece of cake.
Cheers,
Buri
Buri, I didn’t know I can blame the long hairs on my head for the problems with fingering:D! Yes, I have some bad habits with shifting and this is one of the major issue my teacher is working on me. Over the years, I learned the basic rules of a few different shifts and then just do them by ear without much planning so the timing is not always perfect. Now when I get to play something more complex, the rhythm, intonation and quality of the sound all suffer with shifting. I’m spending more than ½ of my practice time working on Flesch scale and Kreutzer #1 these days trying to deal with this issue in particular. I will work on the K #11 as well. Thanks for the advice! My teacher is on tour for a few weeks. I hope I’ll be able to establish a good habit of planned shifting by the time she comes back.
Patrick and Christian, I like Szeryng but I'll definitely explore some other fingering, including Galamian when I’m getting more advanced with Bach’s S&p. Thanks guys.
Greetings,
there are three basic ways to shift (Frecnh, Russian and combination). Usually only one of these is germane to your kind of etchnique and taste in music. However, it is extremely beneficial to technical security and your sense of shiftign to pracitce all shifts in the three differnet ways and then return to the one you will ultimately use.
Incidentally, as Szigeti pointed out, Kreutzer 11 is actually a hand contraction /extension exercise. That is, prior to the shift downwards the upper finger moves as close as possible to the finger it is replacing it (without causing strain). This technique has gobne a litlte out of fashion with the advent of shoulder rests but it is worth experimenting with.
Cheers,
Buri
I'm printing this out and put next to K 11 to remind myself. Thanks again Buri!
I wonder how Francescatti and Milstein played the Bach sonatas and Partitas. We have an earwitness account of Francescatti, who describes him playing Bach 'sounding like an organ'. I learn from the Szeryng edition, and hope that my two violin heroes listed above would approve of Szeryng's edition. I think they would.
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June 6, 2007 at 02:05 AM · Greetings,
his fingerings are superb and there are many examples of small tweaks which resolve akward passages neatly. Thes eare the kind of tweaks that only a mature artist who has performed the works thousands of times is likely to come up. AS such they are worth carefulll and assidous study. You may then choose to use your own , perhaps slighly mor elower positon fingerings, but when all is said and done Szeryng went out of his way to avoid providing a very highly perosnalized edition that only someone with his hand could use. It is an edition for everyone.
I also think that the major feature is not so much the fingering as the bowing. Often his bowing are only diffenrt by a note or two to editions like Galamina but the added nuance is so subtle one once again relaizes one is in the presence of a master musician and teacher. Get the edition and study it. It pays huge dividends.
Cheers,
Buri