Mendelssohn concerto difficutly?
Hi!
In the realm of the classic violin concerti (Mozart, Brahms, etc..) where do you think the Mendelssohn Concerto fall in terms of difficutly?
THanks!!
Replies
Hi,
The Mendelssohn is much harder to play well and pull off than most people realize. To give you an idea, Mr. Pinchas said something to this effect on a CBC series program where he talked about the Mendelssohn - he has not played it publically in 10 years because he does not feel that he is in the absolute most top form needed to play it. He still practices it though whenever he has to teach it.
Cheers!
To: Jennifer DeLaney
From: Skowronski: Classical Recordings
Dear Jennifer, et al: Fellow violinist.com member, Mr. Vincent Skowronski, is the source for a Master Class article which appears in the current March 2007 issue of STRINGS magazine. The perhaps provocative item deals with the Mendelssohn E minor violin concerto, i.e., the approach to its first movement CADENZA. The contents are intended to offer a few suggestions and insights that might prove informative if not helpful to those fiddlers addressing this work that, summarily, has been "butchered and malplayed by so many people."
The article is available ONLINE from the STRINGS magazine website, the SKOWRONSKI website (http://www.skowronskiplays.com -- Press & Reviews) and/or GOOGLE.
"Give it a brake," indeed! And our best to everyone.
Skowronski: Classical Recordings
I'm working on the Mendelssohn right now and severely underestimated its difficulty. To put it mildly, to play the Mendelssohn in tune, you have to be a shifting prodigy and an octaves guru. It's a lot of fun, though! I can finally play the first page up to speed...
This piece is too often given to students not quite ready for it. That said, there are a lot of technical/musical problems that can be addressed by a good teacher, if the student and teacher are up to it.
I currently have two advanced college students working on this and my challenge to them is to go beyond the intonation and technical problems to come to an interpretation which is not like the cd they have been listening to and in fact come up with something that they find more convincing or at least different than what is on the CD. This is a hard project since the piece has been recorded so much.
In my experience the Menndelssohn and the Bruch concerti were amongst the first major concerti assigned.
I know a few people who have played Mendelssohn as their first major concerto. The first one played the first movement for sixth months, and it still wasn't perfected, the second person has been playing the concerto for almost 3 months yet can only play the first two pages. I could have done Mendelssohn as my first major concerto, but my old teacher advised me to do Bruch, which I think has benefited me tremendously. I agree that people don't take Mendelssohn seriously enough, it seems almost like a contest with who can play it first. People seem to want to play it so they can say "I'm working on Mendelssohn". I personally think that it's more important that you can play it well than when you play it. If my teacher permits me, I think I would like to learn Mendelssohn this summer when I will have 6 hours to practice every day. But first my teacher and I are going to take a lot of time to practice technique, and then I want to finish the last movement of Bruch. It's one of my favorite pieces, so I want to play it well.
I recall being disappointed when my intructor suggested the Bruch before the Mendelssohn - but it was well worth it.
My teacher started me on the mendelssohn shortly after christmas, im currently playing the whole first movt, fairly up to speed. I honestly don't see the big deal everyone makes of it, technically and intonation-wise, i dont think its really that diffficult cos its very melodic, so it sticks in your head easily, makng it harder to play out of tune (in my experience anyway). Interpretation, is another thing all together, but im finding that by listening to the anne-sophie mutter and joshua bell recordings, and seeing nicola benedetti playin it in concert, its coming together gradually in my mind, making it much easier to play.
To refer to someone earlier comment about being 'an intonation wizard and an octaves guru', or something like that, im far from either, but my teacher has had me playing scales in 3rds and 8ves for 7/8 months or more at this stage, so when i came to them in this piece, i was honestly relieved! the work i put into those tricky painful scales, finally had practical benefit....they were then pretty easy! :-P
Maybe its lack of preperatory work that is making it difficult for people?
I started the piece in June, and am "polishing" all three movements for a recital in April. I'm so glad to hear that I'm not the only one with intonation problems with it! The notes themselves really aren't that difficult, imo, but to play everything musically is sooooo hard....
Well if anyone can get to the standard that Alfredo Campoli set on his Mendelssohn & Elgar VC CD with Sir Adrian Boult on a difficult to get Beulah label, then he/she must have made it.
That is a hard piece. I just got a recording for it . But it's fun to play. Don't worry how hard it is. Just have fun with it.
Do most people do 1-4 octaves on the first page or fingered octaves (eg. 1-3, 2-4)? I've been practising it with 1-4 octaves mostly. Occasionally I give the fingered octaves a try out.
When I played this I did 1-4 octaves. I didn't have the fingering octaves under my belt yet...
Easy to butcher, hard to play well...(Bruch concerto too)
Might be interesting to listen how e.g. Pinchas Zukerman played Mendelssohn at age of 23:
Carlo Maria Giulini conducting.
FMF
i always do 1-4 on the octaves
What is the correct way? Could you post a recording?
Hi - Listened to Zukerman's performance - even Z with his excellent technique does not manage to play the opening passage in tune. It is a very difficult concerto to bring off. My ideal is still Campoli with Boult on Beulah (CD). Minor intonation flaw at the end of the 2nd mvt but the rest of the performance is really great. Campoli must have played it about 900 times in his lifetime.
If you guys send me an e-mail to chartist2618@bloomberg.net, I can make a file of the Campoli/Boult version for you (3rd mvt only) & send you to your e-mail address within the next few days.
Heifetz made excellent recordings of the Mendelssohn. I have an astounding live performance of Heifetz playing it with the NY Phil. He played the last movement in this performance faster than his studio recordings! Erick Friedman's recording on RCA with the London Symphony and Ozawa is super. Hilary Hahn made a very nice in tune recording of this piece a few years ago. What a great artist she is.
To answer the original question on how hard this piece is, yes it is deceptively difficult almost like Mozart. The first page is very exposed, those intervals have to be right there. This is a hard piece to play in tune.
Nate - is that the Heifetz, NYPO, Cantelli version?
Not aware of the Friedman/Ozawa version myself. You should hear the Campoli/Boult. Your e-mail please?
Regards - Lee
Hi Lee, yes that is the live recording of Heifetz I have. Friedman recorded the Mendelssohn with the London Symphony for RCA, I'm not quite sure if it was released on CD. I have the LP here, on the other side of the record is the Tchaikovsky VC played by Friedman with the same group. RCA did release this recording on CD with the Piano Concerto played by John Browning.
Nate - noted. Will send you tomorrow. You prefer Apple format or Windows Media Player? Lee
Lee - windows format sounds great. Thanks a lot!
Nate
Hi,
There is a Heifetz live with NY Phil under Toscanini available (which I have). Is this the possible one refered to here? I wasn't aware there was another live one out there...
Cheers!
Hi Christian,
Yes that is a completely different recording altogether with Toscanini.
There is also a Heifetz last movement only filmed in 1939 with a kids' orchestra.
Kevin
Has anybody heard the silverstein recording?. I heard a little clip on amazon.com and it sounded very good.
Yes Willie, I have heard the Silverstein recording quite a few times. It's a wonderful performance, he can really play!
Wait till you guys & girls hear Campoli with Boult. Your jaws will drop and stay down permanently. Your e-mail addresses please? Regards - Lee
I am not that impressed with the Campoli recording. He sounds a bit dull in some "easier" passages and misses some of the long lines. At least in my opinion.
I like him much better in shorter lollipops :)
Matthais - maybe you listen to the other Campoli CD (with van Beinum) - which is very poor - relative to the Boult. Lee
And here comes how Dmitry Sitkovetsky handels this concerto:
III. Allegretto non troppo - Allegro molto vivace
FMF
Lee - I might have confused them, I havnt listened to it in a few years.
Mendelssohn is absolutely one of the very hardest concerti out there...there is so much that can go wrong (like the third movement to Sibelius), and it has to be crystalline and pristine (like the rhyming?)
practice scales for this piece!
Ack, Mendelssohn is so hard...you have to be as pristine as if you were playing Mozart, as expressive as Tchaikovsky, and as understatedly-romantic as a Chopin nocturne. Also, the intonation is a bitch.
Mattais - You'd better listen to your versions before you comment - otherwise, you'd put people off a really great version. You want a copy of the 3rd mvt of Campoli-Boult? Lee
You are so correct Lee :)
fiolmattias@gmail.com
Dion, I take it you have the Campoli/van Beinum. Mattias - I will send you the file tomorrow (do you prefer Media Player format or Apple format?) Regards - Lee
If I am feeling down, I just need to play Campoli's Mendelssohn VC, Leonid Kogan's Tchaikovsky VC and Michael Rabin's stereo St Saens Op. 28. After these performances, I am just lifted up.
Lee - windows please :)
Sent you the file Nate & Mattais. Any comments, Lee
I enjoyed the recording Lee, thank you. He had a very nice violin, do you know what kind of violin Campoli used Lee?
I noticed that Campoli played this last movement more on the string than Heifetz.
From: Skowronski: Classical Recordings
To: Nate Robinson
"I noticed that Campoli played this last movement more on the string than Heifetz."
For those seemingly few fiddlers who have managed to create a truly fabulous bow technique for themselves, we find that most will play the so called violin 'spiccato' stroke more ON the string rather than OFF. The result, to a critically keen listener, will immediately be self-evident, i.e., that frightful, gritty, thoroughly irritating edge to the sound will disappear. What manifests itself is a plumpier, rounder, more buoyant mass. The intrinsic clarity of the 'spiccato' itself should, ideally, not be sacrificed. Certainly, there are many 'variations' on this theme.
According to a STRINGS magazine article,....."Skowronski hesitates to recommend any recordings that demonstrate what he is talking about,........" buts adds, "don't look to other violinists for good examples. Take your inspiration from what Mendelssohn put in the score."
Here's to 'more-bounce-to-the-ounce' for all.
Best regards,,
Skowronski: Classical Recordings
Be aware that there are 3 Mendelssohn violin concertos. :)
Alex--
Three meaning: d minor, e minor, and vln/piano concerto, or is there another solo one?
Hi Mattias, How was the sound clip? Did you enjoy it? Cheers - Lee
PS: Another video clip coming to your e-mail.
Greetings,
Mattias my boy, Campoli played on a Stradivarius dated 1700 called 'the Dragonetti,'
Cheers,
your doting dad
Burp
There is some confusion here, Buri - as there are 2 Dragonetti Strads - one of 1700 and another of 1706. Is that right? Which did Campoli play on?
He played the 1700 one. Frank-Peter Zimmermann plays the 1706 one which did not belong to any other known violinist before, afaik.
FMF
Hi - On the Busoni VC CD, FPZ seems to play the 1711 Strad violin that used to belong to Kreisler. Did he play the 1706 Dragonetti Strad before this? Regards - Lee
Yes, you are right, meanwhile he got on loan the Stradivarius from 1711, which once belonged to Fritz Kreisler, and which is sponsored by the WestLB AG, the same bank which was already providing the 1706 Dragonetti.
FMF
Ah so! I see the light now. Thanks, Lee
FMF & other esteemed experts, What violin did you think Campoli play back in 1954 (the year he recorded the Mendelssohn with Boult)? Cheers - Lee
Most likely the 1694 Baillot-Pommerau, since he got his Dragonetti around 1961 only.
I wouldn't stress the importance of the instrument actually played, however. I have been witness to just too many double-blind trials where both experienced luthiers and esteemed violinists failed miserably in identifying "upper class" instruments by listening to them live.
There is no doubt that professional violinists rarely fail in identifying "good" Strads and alike by actually playing these instruments and good luthiers by actually looking at them. But it is also true that instruments in the hands of a great soloist sound much more like the player wants them to sound than the builder and/or maintainer of the instrument wants them to sound, proper maintenance assumed.
It would be quite another thread, why esteemed teachers keep telling poor students how important the "class" of instrument is in terms of their student's career outlook.
In any case one of the double-blind trials has been held for and in front of French public TV, I happen to own the DVD recording of this whole exercise. I wish lots of young violinists-students would have a chance to watch it before ending up in nervous breakdowns for not getting a "valuable" instrument. Too much commercial interest of too many people involved in selling an instrument has created a terrible hype around certain violins. Terrible because it deviates attention far away from real music and provides too much of an excuse for players and teachers alike. And terrible because it gets violinists into financial trouble for no real reason other than using the instrument as kind of pension fund. And terrible for teachers who on one hand have to fight for proper fees from students who on the other hand are willing to spend a couple of hundred thousands on a violin.
FMF
FMF - I'll send you a file of the Campoli last movement too. Enjoy! Lee
Thanks a lot!
FMF
Did you just simply love his playing of the last mvt, FMF? Lee
Lee, for obvious reasons - as stated before in other threads here - I never comment on the performance of violinists. But I shall certainly enjoy the insight your clip will provide.
FMF
OK FMF - will send you the files tomorrow. Cheers - Lee
(Have to run - my "boss" has invited me over to his place to try some violins).
Lee,
I'd like a copy, too, if possible. QT. Thanks!
-Peter
If desired I'll put the clips up on one of my own servers and will publish the links here; instead of Lee mailing a multitude of large messages around. How about that?
I am just waiting for the clips to arrive.
FMF
That'd be awesome if you could, because I'm interested in hearing it too. Thanks a bunch! =)
Lee - ol d h j d33£333##¤
Sorry - Mattais - what is your message? Lee
Hi - I will try to send to FMF in about 4 hours time (earliest). There will be 2 clips - Mendelssohn VC 3 mvt Campoli-Boult (on a NLA Beulah CD - and original Decca recording) and a video clip of Campoli playing a short extract of Sarasate's Gypsy Airs coupled with another piece which I don't know - it is in a trio form (piano, violin & cello). Regards - Lee
Now, here are the four media files as Lee mailed them to me:
Mendelssohn's VC First movement
Mendelssohn's VC Second movement
Mendelssohn's VC Third movement
These files will be available for a few days only, since they sit one of my personal servers as a courtesy to violinist.com members.
Some of you (depending on your PC software setup) might need to right-click on the links and download the files before you can play them locally.
FMF
If I were Felix Mendelssohn, I would sanction the way Campoli plays my Violin Concerto Op 64. Apart from 1 (questionable tuning) note at the end of mvt 2, it's just simply wonderful. Cheers & enjoy it - Lee
I'd like to know you guys & girls thoughts on Campoli's version please. Thanks. Cheers - Lee
Hi,
"If I were Felix Mendelssohn, I would sanction the way Campoli plays my Violin Concerto Op 64. Apart from 1 (questionable tuning) note at the end of mvt 2"
I am really sorry, but I feel that I need to say this: with all due respect, why is one missed note important to single out in a performance?
This is just to inform you: The US Dept Of Justice (internet node wdcsun28.usdoj.gov) just decided to download the First movement. Are we having lawyers-violinists here in the forum? Or did Mr Campoli miss some payment deadlines? Any insights? ;-)
FMF
Unless some more requests arrive here in the forum or in my email inbasket I'll take the Mendelssohn VC samples off the net coming Monday morning my time after about 18 finished downloads requested from Singapore, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, all over USA and Hawai.
Any feedback, so I know whether it's worthwile to setup such or similar downloads for violinist.com members in the future?
FMF
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March 25, 2007 at 02:56 PM · Violinmasterclass.com rates the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto in e-minor as a level 8 out of 10. Keep in mind, that they are grading the pieces on a solely technical level. Mendelssohn is a very difficult piece to play, especially the cadenza. Good luck Mendelssohn-ing :-).
Ian