Real Koltz violin?

August 29, 2023, 7:20 AM · Post on Maestronet.com Pegbox Forum. Likely you will hear that it is the "usual"- mass produced German violin from early 20th century. Labels like the one you have were printed out in sheets. As they were sold in Sears catalogues and Wards- the Amazon of the time- they are the mostly likely thing to find at a second hand shop. Post decent photos there and you will get a possibly terse, but knowledgeable response.

Edited: August 29, 2023, 7:24 AM · Try to follow the instructions for photography pinned to the maestronet bulletin board. And get the name right in your title...

Edited: August 29, 2023, 8:27 AM · As Matthew suggests - You might do well to inquire at Maestronet
(https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/forum/4-the-pegbox/). Experts there might have seen originals or copies of this maker.

There were two Aegidius Klotz violin makers and according to Henley's "Universal Dictionary of Violin & Bow Makers" only the first (and better maker) sometimes signed his instruments "Egidi Klotz" and with the rest of the label you quote - and only he could have made in 1708.

But looking at more of your photos, I think Mathew is right that it is not an original - but that does not mean it might not be a very good violin. I have a niece who was a virtuoso level level in her youth and her instrument was a "Mittenwald."

August 29, 2023, 8:42 AM · its a mass produced fake circa 1900, worth a few hundred dollars and a bit more if professionally set up

August 29, 2023, 9:12 AM · Thanks for taking the time to respond and to drawing my attention to the shortcomings of my post (Koltz - oops!). I'll post on maestronet.com as suggested but I imagine Lyndon has got it right with the circa 1900 comment.

August 29, 2023, 9:47 AM · Fake is an odd term in the sense it was pretty standard practice at the time. As a player, it's possible to find great sounding and playing violins among these.

Edited: August 29, 2023, 12:02 PM · Actually the better grade production violins almost always had the name of a contemporary maker or dealer, the fake label models tended to be cheaper instruments, at least this is true for German instruments, French fake label violins can be quite decent, and I think Klotz labels were used sometimes in French violins, yours appears to be Markneukirchen, German, though

August 30, 2023, 12:33 PM · I agree that it is hard to call these violins fake, they tended to be the cheaper student violins (priced at a pound or so in Britain, a couple of dollars in the US). At that price no one was kidding anyone that they were buying a real Stradivarius, or Guanerius, or Stainer or Klotz.

You could say the labels were fake, since they did approximately look like those used by the named maker, and of course that is what gets people excited about attic finds. A few of them were more honestly labelled "Copy of..." though even then the experts say the resemblance didn't go much further than having 4 strings and 2 f-holes.

As Lyndon says, there are plenty of them still around and many of them make good first violins at a few hundred dollars or pounds if they have been properly set up. The price relates to their origin (usually around Markneukirchen in Germany) so if you find one that sounds good and plays well you can get a bargain.

Edited: September 1, 2023, 10:41 AM ·
QUOTE: Lyndon Taylor · 09/29/23, 8:42 AM
"its a mass produced fake circa 1900, worth a few hundred dollars and a bit more if professionally set up"

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Could you please explain the logic you applied in arriving at this conclusion?

Edited: September 1, 2023, 10:40 AM ·

It would be interesting to see the entire label. Is there any adornment around the perimeter of the label?

I took a look at the Cozio archive at tarisio.com, and there was no "Edigi Klotz" listed. Many others; but, not Edigi. But, the color of several Kotz examples seen there was similar to the color shown in your images.

September 1, 2023, 11:30 AM · Neil,
From my entry above see:
"There were two Aegidius Klotz violin makers and according to Henley's "Universal Dictionary of Violin & Bow Makers" only the first (and better maker) sometimes signed his instruments "Egidi Klotz" and with the rest of the label you quote - and only he could have made in 1708."

September 1, 2023, 3:27 PM · "It would be interesting to see the entire label. Is there any adornment around the perimeter of the label?"

I can't get a pic of the entire label through the F hole. There must be a trick to it that I'm missing. There is no adornment around the perimeter of the label. The typeface is consistent with the exception of the 1708 which looks like a different font and aligned differently to the rest of the text. I took a few more pictures...

https://ibb.co/b7VR5Gy
https://ibb.co/pyh5nws
https://ibb.co/wwQGtnr
https://ibb.co/pXWmwkm

Edited: September 2, 2023, 2:17 AM ·

That makes sense.

Try taking separate, horizontal photos. That is, see if you can get photos in horizontal slices from top to bottom and display those. That would likely give us enough to visualize the appearance of the entire label.

September 2, 2023, 2:16 AM ·
QUOTE: Andrew Victor · 09/01/23 11:30 AM
"Neil, From my entry above see:
'There were two Aegidius Klotz violin makers and according to Henley's "Universal Dictionary of Violin & Bow Makers" only the first (and better maker) sometimes signed his instruments "Egidi Klotz" and with the rest of the label you quote - and only he could have made in 1708."

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That possibility occurred to me at the time that I was reviewing the archive. Thanks for making this clarification.

September 2, 2023, 7:54 AM · Really, the odds are nearly 95% that Lyndon is correct. These labels were sold in sheets at the time (and you can buy them on Ebay now.)
Put it on Maestronet and you'll have a world class expert answer from Germany in a very short time.

September 2, 2023, 10:22 AM · well I would put the odds that its a genuine Klotz at 0%, so well??

September 2, 2023, 11:22 AM · We have a bunch of nearly useless photos for an ID, but the corners appear to be pinched, not mitered (that is, not Mittenwald). We almost have a decent photo of the bottom rib, but it's hidden in the case... sigh... I would be willing to bet that it's in two pieces, not the one-piece bottom rib we would expect to see in an actual Mittenwald violin. F-holes and scroll look wrong for Kloz. Lyndon is 100% correct that there is 0% chance this is Kloz, or even from the 18th century.

However, I think it is wrong to use the term "fake" with a Markneukirchen violin like this. The maker in no way tried to mislead anyone that this was a Kloz (I mean, they obviously weren't copying one), they just made their violin parts and sold it with the others to the wholesaler, who grabbed his labels and stuck one in. The violin itself looks better than a lot of these dutzendarbeit fiddles, and I have heard/played a few of these that sound and play wonderfully. Some, not so much.

September 3, 2023, 6:15 AM · hi paul, thanks for the post, may I ask, how did you get to this level of knowledge? did you follow a course, or did you read some good books (which ones?) or are, or were, you a luthier?

September 3, 2023, 9:39 AM · Such knowledge as I possess is all thanks to hours spent sifting through the discussions on maestronet.com. It's the kind of fuzzy expertise that's only born of experience and that you can glean a little of through word of mouth.

September 3, 2023, 10:56 AM · Hi Jean, I'm with Steve here as far as our source of information is concerned. I'm just a player (composer by training) who has been a devoted student of the experts on Maestronet for years, which eventually paid off in a big way with the violin I now play on. These mass-produced cottage industry violins from Central Europe are distinctive, and Jacob Saunders on M'net produced a method for distinguishing Mittenwald work from Markneukirchen work, which is what I was applying, above. You see SO many dutzendarbeit violins that eventually you can spot them from a distance.

September 3, 2023, 1:47 PM · thx Paul & Steve.

September 3, 2023, 3:14 PM · dutzendarbeit means 'by the dozen'
Often the individual parts were made by farmers and laborers as winter work, then sold to wholesalers who would assemble and sell them on.
Or at least as others said, that's what I have gleaned from Maestronet.