Amorim vs Edgar Russ

June 11, 2023, 4:06 AM · Is there a reason you’re only looking at these two makers? They’re both well known for producing good violins, but there aren’t the only ones especially in the price range it seems you’re looking at.

However, like Alexander was alluding to you could get a very good modern violin for much less than both of these makers and then get a very nice bow like a Bazin, Lamy, Hill, Tubbs, etc. A nice bow can often go much further than getting a more expensive violin. Often times people will buy a bow that costs more than their violin purely because it just adds so much value to the sound they can get out of their existing violin or a modern violin they end up getting that’s on the more affordable side.

June 11, 2023, 11:49 AM · I am planning a trip tomorrow to Cremona, but the time is limited and the violins too many. I have tried a violin from Russ and was much superior than other violins from younger makers such as Anna Arietti. Tomorrow I will visit also Tonarelli and Bergonzi. Amorim is excluded because there is no violin that I can try, but I will try to compare Bergonzi, Tonarelli and Russ. I am not sure if I will manage also to try a Villa, depending on how long it will take. But all this makers are under 20kEur, so I wonder if I am losing time and should just go to Russ... Or if I should wait and organize a second trip when also violins from Amorim will be available. But is super difficult to find informations and distinguish the "social media hype" from the real value...

June 11, 2023, 12:18 PM · If I had the opportunity to visit Cremona I would not miss the shop of Riccardo Bergonzi. I have not had much experience with contemporary Italian violins, however I did visit three of the "traveling Cremona instrument shows" in years past when they were on exhibition at Ifshin violins and Bergonzi instruments (violins, violas and cellos)** were the only ones that impressed me and were the only ones I might have considered purchasing were I in the market, even though they were priced at the high end of the entire collection.

Beware the effect of the acoustic differences of the various venues on the apparent sound!

**(I have played all three instruments for many years.)

June 11, 2023, 12:22 PM · Most makers (and any worth their salt) offer a full refund on a commissioned instrument. It's not a unique thing to consider those particular makers. Simply don't buy from anyone who doesn't offer that policy.

Also regardless of makers previous work, every violin has different characteristics. A maker can have a good repeatable process, but the tree got the first vote.

Enjoy the process and don't rush. There's plenty of living and dead makers with plenty of instruments in that range.

June 11, 2023, 12:51 PM · I know that they always allow a refund if one is not happy, but I would prefer to avoid, even because their waiting list is quite long, and they often do not have instruments to try. I have been to Cremona some weeks ago and I tried some instruments from contemporary young makers at the 10-15 kEUR range but I was quite disappointed. I am asking about Russ and Amorim because they are the only ones in Cremona for which I found informations in this price range, but no opinions on their violins. I found a lot of opinion on Tonarelli and Bergonzi in this forum, and I am going to visit them, but I wonder if the different pricetag (30-40 for Amorim/Russ vs 10-20 for Bergonzi/Tonarelli) is justified or not... and, if the different price tag is justified, do you know other makers in Cremona in this pricetag?

June 11, 2023, 1:00 PM · When you get to the Bergonzi shop, ask for Carlo.

Edited: June 11, 2023, 1:34 PM · I tried one violin by Amorim, which was sent to me, and has been selected by the shop, based on a description what I was looking for. While it met the description tonally, I was not impressed with it at all. Given its price tag, I would have expected significantly more elegance in tone and easier response: While expecting a Mercedes, I got a Jeep.

I am happy now with another maker's violin, who is well-regarded among his colleagues (also as a judge in competitions), but not so strong in marketing... ;-)

June 11, 2023, 1:40 PM · Thank you for your opinion Stephan! Can you share the name of the maker you preferred (also in a private message if you prefer)?

Edited: June 11, 2023, 3:04 PM · @Stephan, the funny thing is that the comment in the original post about these makers having a slick web page and marketing presence really put me off. The best makers surely don't need that. My guess is that a good maker can create, what, 10 violins per year? Fifteen if they've got no life?

June 11, 2023, 3:23 PM · @Paul that's the point, how to know which makers are good without having to try all the 150 cremona's luthier :) I asked about these two because I know them from social media, I am now trying to understand if the hype is well founded or not, and if there are other makers (in Cremona for geographical reasons) worth to be considered.

June 11, 2023, 3:51 PM · I’ve heard good things about the Villa brothers. Mostly I’ve heard of Vittorio Villa. The late Emmanuel Borok (former concertmaster of the Dallas Symphony) had one made after his Brothers Amati and he was very satisfied with it. I had a chance to play it and it was a very good instrument for the money. It had a brighter and more laser focused sound which wasn’t what I was looking for but I could tell it was a high quality violin. I think they’re running for under 30k.

June 11, 2023, 7:00 PM · Paul - are they keeping Carlo in a box?

June 12, 2023, 12:51 AM · If you have your heart set on a Cremona violin, I second the the Villa brothers. Both of them are also accomplished violinists - you can find Marcello's videos of him playing his own instruments on YouTube. Being able to actually play the instrument is definitely a plus for a luthier.

Edited: June 12, 2023, 12:44 PM · I had a chance to try an Amorim violin a few months ago when one of the sons was touring our town. It was aesthetically near to perfection with special attention to details. Not a surprise as Amorim is a plastic artist, same as his wife whom helps also. The family has a very competent professional arrangement with sons on the making, on the business side, marketing, etc...
The violin I tried was easy to play, with a nice tone but nothing outstanding. If you want a nicely copied violin, maybe it is an option to consider but I think Amorim's instruments are a bit overpriced.

June 12, 2023, 9:35 AM · Maurizio Tadioli is also worth a look. His violins both look and sound beautiful...

June 12, 2023, 4:18 PM · @Giuseppe Alonci I 2nd Alexander Saldarriaga in stating you should check out Dereck and really think about having him build you one.

Just like Alexander, I own one of his violins. And to describe that fully - I own the violin that he won a Certificate of Tone for at the 2022 VSA competition. It really is an amazing instrument - his violins are played by people in State Orchestras.

And just like Alexander said, his violins have that same sound quality, but with a better price. I was just in his shop and he has an exceptional gold mounted SLC Pernambuco bow that is amazing to play on. Get one of his and then get an amazing bow to go with it - and still save some money. Best of all 3 worlds imo.

https://www.dcoons.com/

His next violin he is making will be phenomenal as well - I would ask him about the model and everything - I won't spoil it for you :)

June 21, 2023, 10:01 AM · Well... some updates. I have tried other violins from Tonarelli and Bergonzi, unfortunately the Villa brothers didn't reply to my calls. I also tried several violins in Russ shop in the 10-20 kEUR range, and also two violins from Russ himself. I tried also several violins in Amorim shop between 10 and 20 kEUR, but no violin from Luiz were available.
The violins from Edgar were honestly superior in sound quality to anything else I tried, but also the budget was much higher. I was quite disappointed from Bergonzi, I tried several violins but it was not the kind of sound I was expecting, although they were all gorgeous. At the end I decided to commission a violin from Tonarelli, I tried three different instruments from him and I loved them all. I also considered very strongly a violin from Pietro Moltani at 12 kEUR, violin sold by Russ. Very high quality from a very young luthier and a beutiful sound!

June 21, 2023, 10:25 AM · I'm still looking for a violin that "resonates with the core personality and character of the player" (DCoons). I guess that means one that I like very much.

June 21, 2023, 1:59 PM · The country a maker works in, or was born in, doesn't mean much anymore, since so many of the better ones get their education and training (including post-graduate training) in the same places.

So I prefer to look at specifics of the background and training, over country.
Not that this is foolproof. Two people can have the same background, and one ends up being an ace, while the other never quite comes up to speed.

June 21, 2023, 3:41 PM · David, this is such a great advice, already said here in other occasions but it is worth saying it a million other times.

It is nice to have an instrument with "Cremona" in its label but it does not necessarily mean you have the best possible instrument for the money.
For a good contemporary Cremonese, one needs more than a life time for the waiting list.

On the other hand, there are makers that studied in Cremona currently in places like Japan, Brazil, Malta and almost everywhere in the between.

I had one fine contemporary Cremonese violin made in 2019 but it was traded in by locally made violin (Hermann Janzen) that is even nicer and further increased my motivation to play every day.

June 22, 2023, 8:08 AM · What it comes down to is: are you buying an instrument as a permanent play-partner or as one that you can trade in (possibly at a profit). An unknown and unconnected luthier may become famous but the odds are low whereas a violin from Cremona is always from Cremona and catches the eye of the buyer. Thus, its the usual question of 'providence' vs 'playability'.

As you may be aware violins are expensive far more because of the former than the latter - a no-name perfect playing violin will never be worth as much as one from an ideal luthier (say Stradivarius). Indeed, one of the dealers I know has two separate collections, 'Room 1' with violins with providence (that may or may not be great instruments) and 'Room 2' violins for playing. Why? Well, the former are for customers who want an instrument with status and also investment vs ones that need an instrument for their job. Ever wonder how all those orchestra players could get excellent playing violins on an orchestra salary? Well, they pick from room 2. These instruments are often without an identity, with mixed parts (from repairs), or just one of the marvelous violins made in Bohemia (and now China).

BTW I am not being judgmental - if you put a lot of money in a violin you do hope that it will at least retain its value. I have an American violin that cost me a pretty penny - but one with an excellent providence and that is a delight to play.

June 22, 2023, 9:50 AM · providence vs. provenance

Edited: June 24, 2023, 9:24 AM · When I sell a viola the player buys a tool for making music. He is interested in a quick response, generous dynamic range, dark and focused sound, powerful C string, clarity, no wolves, and a viola that you can play up to the 7th position on the C and G strings. I never sold a viola as an investment. I sell them as tools.
I see this idea of investment is in the head of players but, eventually, when you are playing for an audition, you will depend on the tool, and not on the name inside the soundbox.

Edited: June 24, 2023, 9:26 AM · The violin market is a bit like the art market, it is irrational. Van Gogh sold just two paintings, even if his brother was one of the most important art dealers in Paris. Gauguin came from Taiti to Paris with 60 paintings that were badly received. On the other hand, a contemporary artist sells cut sharks and cows for million of dollars.
By the way, I love buying art too, I buy what I love, I never see it as an investment, and probably it will not be that. One of the painters I love is worth much less now than when he was alive. Good for me, I get some of his fine works in auctions as bargains.

Edited: July 1, 2023, 7:20 AM ·
I agree that a violin shouldn't be thought of as an investment. It's not liquid, since one can take months and months to sell. And, a typical sales commission is 30%. So, a violin doesn't have the attributes of an investment.

But while not an "investment," a violin is an asset, and this needs to be taken into consideration as part of its purchase and ownership. How vulnerable will it be to theft during a burglary? Does it have authentication papers, and if so, are they safely stored away from the violin. How recent is its appraisal? Has the violin been insured? If and when it comes time to sell the violin, what will be the market, and how difficult might be to sell?

My violin has some value, and I immediately purchased a safe for its storage and protection during a fire. (< $1K used, < $2K new.) I know from a previous thread [ (-: ], that some will deem a safe unnecessary, and I can understand that. But when I leave my house on vacation, I leave worry free. As an asset, my violin is insured by Clarion, and its authentication papers, appraisal, and bill of sale reside in a safety deposit box inside a bank vault. It's worthwhile that these papers be kept separate from the violin to help prevent its being successfully fenced, if stolen.

Edited: July 1, 2023, 7:16 AM ·

I agree that a violin shouldn't be thought of as an investment. It's not liquid, since one can take months and months to sell. And, a typical sales commission is 30%. So, a violin doesn't have the attributes of an investment.

But while not an "investment," a violin is an asset, and this needs to be taken into consideration as part of its purchase and ownership. How vulnerable will it be to theft during a burglary? Does it have authentication papers, and if so, are they safely stored away from the violin. How recent is its appraisal? Has the violin been insured? If and when it comes time to sell the violin, what will be the market, and how difficult might be to sell?

My violin has some value, and I immediately purchased a safe for its storage and protection during a fire. (< $1K used, < $2K new.) I know from a previous thread [ (-: ], that some will deem a safe unnecessary, and I can understand that. But when I leave my house on vacation, I leave worry free. As an asset, my violin is insured by Clarion, and its authentication papers, appraisal, and bill of sale reside in a safety deposit box inside a bank vault. It's worthwhile that these papers be kept separate from the violin to help prevent its been successfully fenced, if stolen.

Edited: July 7, 2023, 12:49 PM · Yes Neil, but what you have said about violins as an asset coud be said about cars too. A car is an asset, valuable, you need insurance, a safe place to keep it, documents. And for a professional driver, a car is a ... tool. In the very same way, a musical instrument is a tool for the player