A question about Baroque G strings

March 7, 2023, 3:16 PM · A few weeks ago I played on a Baroque violin for the first time in my life. It struck me that when I bowed the G string to give a loud tone (more bow speed than pressure) its pitch would go up. To me, that would signify that the string is not thick enough, but others insisted that it was: 1,2 mm.
My question: is it normal for a Baroque G string to give a higher pitch when it is bowed? What are normal values for string tension and thickness on Baroque instruments?

Bart

Replies (20)

March 7, 2023, 7:57 PM · Obviously this should not be happening. The string was probably old and false, or otherwise low quality to begin with. Very very few baroque violinists of my acquaintance seem to use a plain gut G.... most stick with a Eudoxa or similar covered gut. I tried a plain gut G for a while but the results were, shall we say, highly unsatisfactory. I don't think there is a standard for thickness and tension, with these values all over the map.
March 7, 2023, 8:39 PM · Plain gut G strings are a thing of the (distant) past. Wound G strings don't have this problem.
March 8, 2023, 2:34 AM · I had this problem with a plain gut D (sporting "true fifths" on the envelope!) back in the dark ages.
The stiffness makes the "bulge" start too far from the finger.
March 8, 2023, 3:51 AM · Even the baroque period preferred wound Gs.
Edited: March 8, 2023, 7:17 PM · @ Bart Meijer

the effect you heared with that g-string technically is called "amplitude dependence of resonance frequency". Your guess that the effect depends on the thickness of the string is partly right.
For understanding that effect you have to take in account that the string needs to stretch for reaching the maximas of it's transversal deflection. That stretching of the string results in an increase of the tension of the string. That means that the vibration of the string causes a periodical change of the string tension. As a result of this the temporal average of the tension of a vibrating string T_vs is higher than the tension T_nvs of the same non vibrating string. An increase of the maximas of transversal deflection causes an increase of the temporal average of the tension T_vs. Since the frequency of a vibrating string depends among other parameters on the tension of the string, the pitch of the string will be slightly increased when the string is played louder.
It depends on the size of the relation
(T_vs - T_nvs)/T_nvs
how big the deviation of the pitch of a loudly played string will be. The bigger the value of the above relation is, the bigger is the deviation of the pitch of a loudly played string. When the value of the above relation exceeds a certain threshold you can hear that deviation of the pitch. And obviously that was the case for the g-string you played.
Since T_nvs is the denominator of the above relation, the value of that relation decreases when T_nvs (that is the tension of the non vibrating string) increases. That means that you have to increase T_nvs to diminish the value of the relation above and push it's value below that threshold for that the deviation of pitch can be heard.

Using the average density of string gut of 1330 kg/m³ at a relative humidity of 50% together with Taylors formula for the string tension, a 1.2 mm plain gut g-string with a vibrating length of 0.325 m delivers T_nvs = 24.4 N = 2.5 kp.
That's pretty low tension, even for a barock g-string. On the other hand, 1.2 mm is a pretty thick gut string for a violin bow. Increasing the diameter of the plain gut string increases it's stiffness and because of that will result in awkward sound effects. As written by the contributors above, you should use a wound g-string.

Just a last recommendation: on wound gut strings you can combine different diameters of gut with wires of different diameters made of differnt materials so that you get wound gut strings with different diameters >>BUT<< same tension for a certain vibrating length and pitch! So it's rather meaningless to sell or buy wound gut strings by diameter. Instead look for the value of the mass per unit length. That will give you a reliable and commensurable measure for the tension the string will have on an instrument with a certain vibrating length at a certain pitch.
According to my experience for a barock violin the mass per unit length of a g-string should be in the region between 180 g/100m (gramm per 100 meter) to 200 g/100m depending on what the violin likes. For playing classical or romantic repertoire on a modern violin you can choose a wound gut g-string in the range of 200 g/100m to 240 g/100m. By the way that is about the range Pirastro offers for their standard Eudoxa and Wondertone Gold g-strings.

Have a nice day!

March 8, 2023, 7:09 PM · 1.2mm would be a wound gut string, an unwound G would be like 2mm
March 8, 2023, 9:51 PM · I attended an outstanding Baroque performance by the 45th Parallel Universe, and during the introduction, the lead violist explained that they were playing either authentic, antique instruments or replicas of same. He also commented that their instruments owed their unique voices to the gut strings that they were using, tuned to a 415 A.

I had a chance to visit a bit with him afterwards, and while the A and E strings were gut, the D and G strings were metal wound gut strings. (Pirastro Olive Strings to be precise.)

March 8, 2023, 9:51 PM · I attended an outstanding Baroque performance by the 45th Parallel Universe, and during the introduction, the lead violist explained that they were playing either authentic, antique instruments or replicas of same. He also commented that their instruments owed their unique voices to the gut strings that they were using, tuned to a 415 A.

I had a chance to visit a bit with him afterwards, and while the A and E strings were gut, the D and G strings were metal wound gut strings. (Pirastro Olive Strings to be precise.)

Edited: March 9, 2023, 11:58 AM · Keep in mind that baroque stringing is best approached with consciousness of the tradeoffs you are making. What are you after, and what are you willing to give up to get it?

A pure gut G string will give you an opportunity to explore the unique tonality that players and composers were used to in the early baroque--at a cost in terms of playability depending on the exact construction (and the violin, its setup, and the bow).

Even reproductions of the best historical baroque violin G strings exact a price for the exploration they allow--which is why you find violinists who proudly aver their historicity using non-historical Oliv D and G strings. The implied principle being "Well there are limits you know!" :-)

Edited: March 9, 2023, 2:07 PM · Jose,
More than ten years ago (shudder) we had a discussion about this on Violinist.com. It seems that you more or less confirm the conclusions we reached. Thank you for contributing, and responding in depth to my question!
Bart
March 9, 2023, 2:16 PM · Actually, Lyndon is right. 1.20 mm would make it on the high end for a D string—or a medium in the equal tension system (yuck). Facepalm

It's not a G string.

March 9, 2023, 6:02 PM · The OP never said it was unwound if its a G string 1.2mm it would be a heavy gauge wound string or a medium gauge unwound D
March 9, 2023, 6:18 PM · I have never seen a wound G string that was 1.2 mm. That would be massive.
March 10, 2023, 4:01 AM · OP here: it was a bare gut string.
March 10, 2023, 12:56 PM · there is no such thing as a 1.2mm plain gut G string, maybe someone was just guesstimating the diametre
March 10, 2023, 7:56 PM · The lightest gauge gamut G string unwound I can find is 1.4mm
March 12, 2023, 2:31 PM · Thank you, Lyndon. This confirms my suspicions.
March 12, 2023, 3:44 PM · I recall when watching the movie "The Red Violin" in a theater that the lower strings showed up as wound in a time frame that corresponded to the Baroque.

Now, I know that I should not take my history from fictional movies, but this info from Claire Givens website would tend to bear that out.

https://www.givensviolins.com/violin-strings-history/

March 15, 2023, 11:19 AM · Hi Andrew,

Leaving the movie aside, since the period we frame as 'baroque' goes from 1600 to 1750, there wasn't a single type of baroque G string.

Edited: March 19, 2023, 1:58 PM · @ Bart Meijer

Thank you very much for the link to that detailed discussion of the subject.


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