Fingering hand position

December 3, 2022, 5:43 PM · I see you have been here at least 10 years and possibly playing longer.

In my opinion the proper left hand position is dictated by what your personal body structure allows you do most naturally to achieve your goals.

Personally I was taught to rest my violin's neck on my first thumb joint in 1st position and to allow my thumb to project up higher in 3rd position. However, I have seen good string players do all sorts of things based on the lengths of the arms and the visible and invisible details of their hand structure.

Do it the way it works - otherwise it either will not work or it will hurt and likely (eventually) worse. It sounds to me like you know what works for you. If you find it limits what you want to do, try to find a teacher/coach you can trust to help you fix it. A good teacher should be able to understand how YOUR muscles work and suggest paths to sensible changes - and not be one of those "my way or the highway" types.

I think it is important to resolve such issues as soon as one recognizes them, because my experience is that as we age we all will eventually "age out" of the ability to change, or in fact, to improve in any way.

December 3, 2022, 5:59 PM · Watch Ray Chen. His thumb is like yours from your description.

December 3, 2022, 6:28 PM · I agree with Andrew: "Do it the way it works - otherwise it either will not work or it will hurt and likely (eventually) worse." This is good advice whenever you have a question about technique. If you don't have a teacher, it is difficult for anyone to give you any better advice.

December 3, 2022, 7:39 PM · The other side of all this is that it's good to experiment with things and actually give them a real try. There's a reason the textbooks put your thumb underneath the neck more -- because then your fingers can come up over and reach the stops on the fingerboard. I think it was Gingold who said "The purpose of hand position is to reach the notes."

Edited: December 3, 2022, 7:52 PM · Thanks Andrew and Tom.

Paul, I just checked out Ray Chen (for the first time) and
actually his thumb is considerably longer than mine, so perhaps
instead of saying my thumb is "a little short" I should have said
it is "short".

For finer details of my thumb extension in my two left-hand postures:
1. Thumb is 1.25" above finger board in lower positions
2. Thumb is .25" - .5".

This may not sound like much overall, but everything is in relationship to one's hand/arm structure.

There is a distinct difference in feel for me between these two postures.

Again the first posture gives me a much more solid feel for where I am on the violin neck.
The second posture gives me much more freedom for vibrato and finger movement.

Andrew and Tom said I should do what works.
Well I guess it will mean continuing to go back and forth between the two depending on the piece or how I feel on the given day. :)

December 4, 2022, 12:44 AM · I also have a short thumb. My original teacher always insisted that it should not 'peep' at all, which brought my elbow forward nicely. That was important to being able to reach getting notes easily (ie purpose of the hand position being to reach the notes).

However, another teacher, much later, advocated a constantly changing hand position, depending on which string I was playing. She gave me arm swinging exercises to help develop a more flexible hand position - elbow forward, thumb down on g string, elbow under, possible peeping thumb for e string. It took a while (esp in positions) to sink in but helped a lot with having a relaxed hand (important for vibrato and playing fast). It might be a good idea to keep experimenting, but to aim for a relaxed hand, even if it means having to relearn shifting or finger formations ...

December 4, 2022, 1:30 AM · I may have had some times where I was thinking more explicitly about that thumb (I did used to point the thumb towards the scroll, which my teacher got me out of the habit of), but I don't think much about the thumb, and instead see its position(s) as emerging from what the other fingers need and are doing.

I can set my hand in a really solid frame for Schradieck, but I can also be more up on my fingers for vibrato; in the first case, the thumb just needs to be relaxed and out of the way, and in the second case, the thumb may need some minimum amount of contact with the neck to act as a fulcrum for the vibrato. I can move between these two attitudes, but I can also practice vibrato from a more stable handframe.

As long as my thumb isn't squeezing, then it's probably doing what is needed. The only time it does some really different that I need to think about is when I have a big stretch like a tenth, where it comes under the neck, or when I get up high in position, where it comes up the other side of the fingerboard.

My understanding is that a much more active thumb is needed if playing without a shoulder rest, particularly in shifting. I play with a shoulder rest, so all those nuances are over my head.

December 4, 2022, 12:30 PM · For a beginner all sorts of ways to play work. It is when more advanced techniques are added that certain hand positions begin to show disadvantages. A good teacher should start students off with a hand position (or indeed any element of technique) that can "bare the higher load" of more advanced techniques--even if students don't see the purpose at the time. One of my teachers explained this to me when I didn't like something he wanted me to do.

It is possible that your case is such a case: I assume you used your position 1 from the beginning with few problems--until vibrato showed up. And the reason you feel "at home" with position 1 is maybe mostly that you are used to it. "Retrofitting" your hand position in this situation is hard. It may be unavoidable.

At any rate this is a case where a teacher is required who can watch exactly what you are doing and guide you from there.

December 4, 2022, 1:46 PM · Thanks Albrecht.

"It is possible that your case is such a case: I assume you used your position 1 from the beginning with few problems--until vibrato showed up. And the reason you feel "at home" with position 1 is maybe mostly that you are used to it. "Retrofitting" your hand position in this situation is hard. It may be unavoidable.

At any rate this is a case where a teacher is required who can watch exactly what you are doing and guide you from there."

You have read me incorrectly (as you will see below). :)

My position 1, raised thumb (in earnest) has been fairly recent.
My thumb up until this point has been almost always 'lower', barely peaking over the fingerboard.

Thanks Anish and Christian for your replies.

First I need to say that looking more at Ray Chen's thumb, I would say it is average to long rather than short. :)

I also need to fill in more about myself.
It may sound ludicrous to you, but I have been playing violin for decades.

I have been both a student and teacher of violin. Same for guitar, but I am self-taught on the instrument.

I got off to a really bad start on the violin because of poor violin teachers. :(

It took me approximately 20 years to figure out that my bow grip was so fundamentally wrong that no one, even the world's greatest violinists,
would have been able to play their instrument properly and not sound like a rank amateur.

Neither of my first two violin teachers took the time to spot my 'unplayable' bow grip! And one teacher was a fabulous player (assistant concert master of major orchestra).

Back to my dilemma. I will continue to experiment with the two postures.
I am gravitating at the moment to the more 'solid feeling of position' posture and am trying to build a decent vibrato with it.
For fast passages I can always dip the thumb and move to the other posture.

The other downside to the higher thumb posture is that the arm needs to be held slightly higher, which means fatigue will set in sooner.

I always thought Sarah Chang, a player I greatly admire, had a short thumb.
I was just watching her in a video and can now see that her thumb is average in length (actually longer than mine).
I had thought her thumb was short because she never lets it peak above the fingerboard.

It just goes to show there are so many possibilities when it comes to fingering hand/thumb positions.

And there is no Rule of Thumb (sorry about that). :)