The bows blow my current one both in playability and sound quality. Both bows are very smooth to play and it makes using the whole bow a lot easier! The one that has been tested before is amazingly smoother to play. It makes me wonder if perhaps the rosin previously applied to it is a significant factor? I remember Lydia's story about still looking for that rosin used on one of the bows she tried before.
Then I start to wonder if it's the horse hair. That does mean that the bow will feel and play slightly different (not sound-wise) once rehaired? If not then it would be the bow itself, which is interesting because it doesnt even make direct contact with the strings!
P.S. Coming from a beginner, quality bow really does make HUGE differences. Almost feels like I'm cheating since playing got easier with added bonus of better sound from my violin. Just wow!
Just a few things with terms regarding bows that I'm still not 100% clear. Correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Feel = Playability. Includes factors such as weight, balance, and flexibility
2) Sound quality. Mostly due to quality of the bow ie wood vs CF
3) Where does "smoothness" go? Is it under feel / playability or on it's own category? I remember someone saying a bow played buttery smooth but didn't have a really good playability.
I now have a clearer idea what to look for in a bow. Technically smoothness shouldn't really be a factor in choosing a bow because, as Sylvan mentioned, there are huge differences in hair quality and a bow will be rehaired eventually in the long term.
You said you are a beginner. When you are trying bows for purchase, you should definitely ask some help from your teacher or someone has a lot of experience in violin. You need certain violin technique to test the playability of a bow and well-trained ear to hear the sound the bow can produce on your violin in more reliable way.
Some bows can feel like an extension of your arm.
I'm currently using Kaplan Dark #7 rosin. I did some rosin research last night and will be getting the Bernardel light.
2. Because everyone is different physically, technically, musically, etc. I don't think I can get the help from internet the same way/quality as I get from my teacher because most time people are talking general terms rather than something specifically applicable to me personally as a violinist and a person.
3. If you are considering buying a bow, I have to be straight with you just as I usually am with my friends who are beginners or the parents of beginners: In this commercial world we live, buying a violin or a bow or both is the easiest but the least important part in learning the violin. Unless your teacher suggest that you need a better bow or violin, it is often wasteful because the solution to the problems we are dealing with usually isn't the stuff we can purchase, but the right direction we can get at each point when we feel stuck, especially when we feel we can make better sound by buying a violin or a bow. Most likely, you need to just work on your technique, and saving the money to find the best teacher you can afford which can be a much better investment.
I am speaking from my own experience as I too have the tendency to acquire stuff and have made a lot of mistakes by buying things (instruments, books, etc.). I still have to remind myself again and again, each time the impulse comes. Having said that, sometimes each person has to find their own way to learn. As they say, life is short but the road is long. Enjoy the journey!
A good player can probably pick up the bow and within 30 seconds, tell you whether or not it's decent quality for a beginner.
That said, if you have a terrible $10 bow, it's worth upgrading to something with decent playability, but honestly, for a beginner, a $50 Glasser fiberglass bow will probably do the trick.
My main reason for trying bows is curiosity especially with everyone talking about playability and sound quality. My $70 Fiddlerman CF bow is mostly fine (minus the occasional oscillation) and I can definitely learn far with it. For me there's some separation between learning and enjoying. I can definitely learn with a $80 violin and $20 bow, but I may not necessarily enjoy the sound I can get from it. If I continued lessons with my previous teacher for 2 months of weekly hourly lessons (8 classes + transportation), it would be an equivalent of one JP Avanti bow.
My other hobby is listening to quality audio (audiophiles if you've heard that term before, though I don't consider myself one). I appreciate getting every bit of good sound possible, but there's definitely a price point when the diminishing returns start to plummet. I believe being able to try quality equipment just for experience and spoiling ourselves a little bit once in a while is part of enjoying the journey :) As long as it's reasonably affordable and not self-destructive for us now or later.
With my other previous hobbies, I've also fallen victim to my own constant desire of upgrading for the "better". My regret is the incremental upgrades that I took since I still ended up with what I was initially aiming for. Now I just go for the best I can reasonably afford (if not then I cut back on other expenses and/or hold off my purchase until I can save enough) and never look back knowing that I made the decision to the best of my knowledge at that time. Of course, more info is better and getting a feedback from a skilled player would be beneficial. I'm just in a somewhat tough spot to get someone to try the bows.
I've been trying to avoid spelling out which bows I'm currently trying as to not draw attention to the models and price :s But since I already mentioned, the other one I'm trying is the Carrera. A second Avanti is on it's way. I'm doing a 2-week home trial from Fiddlershop. The store here only allows a week of home trial and it's far from home. I'm meticulous with my testing and I think 1 week won't be enough for my first trials. I feel ill-equipped to do trials at the shop and I would feel obligated to purchase if I took the bows home from the shop unlike online where it's less personal. My goal right now is to try and compare the JP bows as much as I can and then visit for in-store trials using the Avanti as my baseline preference. By then I won't be as clueless when testing.
When you're about to hit the intermediate stage, work with your teacher to select a bow. That may still not be your long-term preference; at that point you could pick a neutral decent bow that will last you until the point where you have more mature technique and therefore more specific preferences.
I suspect that much like beginners need more forgiving violins, they also need more forgiving bows. Something that is highly and precisely responsive is better, objectively, but it may also be really frustrating to use.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31rbUbJ7vSL.jpg
http://www.jonpaulbows.com/images/img-bow-avanti-bottom.jpg
Which Suzuki book would you consider as "about to hit the intermediate stage"?
Cheers Carlo
Suzuki introduces off-the-string strokes in book 5, so that would be a good time to upgrade bows.
Anyways... At my current pace, that would probably take me another 3-4 years before I get to book 5. I've been playing a lot more recently with the trial bows though! Perhaps I can get it to 2-3 years with my recent increase in play time.
Both JP's have been super fun to play with! Smoother to use so it's easier for me to use the entire bow. Cleaner sound so I'm less likely to halt my playing from screeches. It's also a lot more rewarding to play notes right since I can get a much much better sound than my current bow. Interestingly, the Carrera is too smooth that I end up sliding sideways more often. You're right that some bows would require better skills, otherwise it could cause more problems than improvements.
I'm too spoiled now to wait another 2+ years to upgrade my current bow :/ I'm set on getting at most the Avanti.
I believe I've tried the five models of bows at the lower end of the JP line, so everything excluding the Carrerra and Vetta -- Bravo, Arpege, Corona, Avanti, Muse.
I did not like the particular Muse I tried as much as I liked the Avanti, as that thread details.
Just got more info. Avanti was released in 2004 and the Carrera in 2012. Asked the manufacturer regarding Corona and Muse plus any discontinued models.
Rather, it's a crack in the body of the violin itself, beneath the soundpost. A crack like that is pretty much a 50% devaluation of the instrument, regardless of how well-repaired it is.
Of course, this is due to somewhat uncharitable projection on my part.
If it's to compete and sound good compared to others or to play for others or to be the next famous violinist, then yes I agree that looking for equipment for "quick fixes" is not the best way to go and that practice and lessons should be priority.
I play the violin for self entertainment. Since it's entertainment, which is the same category as watching movies and sports, playing video games, going to concerts, or whatever people do for fun, so in some ways since it's not "productive" then it's "lost time" and "waste of money". Am I getting better as a player? Perhaps not, but I sure am "wasting" and enjoying my time with experimenting with bows and rosin as I find that entertaining =P I mean arent we all supposed to enjoy the instrument in whichever way fits us?
Just tried the Bernardel rosin last night. Cleaned my bow hair first with denatured alcohol. I messed up a little and got some of it on my bow, but thank goodness it's carbon fiber and worst case it's not an expensive bow. The alcohol went up the horse hair (I forgot the science term for water having the ability to climb up through certain material) and then to the tip and frog where the hair is attached. Immersion is probably the riskiest method because of that. I'll probably try the other method I read like using paper towel damped with alcohol or the toothbrush method. I don't think I'll have to do any of this anytime soon. Whichever new bow I'm getting, I'm not going to risk it. The horse hair looked and felt brand new after the cleaning!
The Bernardel gives a smoother feeling compared to the Kaplan dark. The Kaplan has more grip. I prefer the Bernardel. I didn't notice difference in the overall sound. I also noticed the dust from the Bernardel is finer.
Indeed, what feels good to you now as a beginner might actually not even be what would optimize your learning as a beginner. You might get a few months down the line, for instance, and get a good teacher, and find out that what you thought was great equipment is actually hampering you.
Is it likely that a bow like the Avanti could hamper me over my current beginner bow? In what ways?
By the way, many thanks for all the input you've been providing (in my other threads too)!
Avanti was released in 2004 while the Corona, Muse, and Carrera was released in 2012. So my initial guess that more models similar to the Avanti was released just recently is right. The Muse was apparently supposed to replace the Avanti, but a lot of people liked it so it was never discontinued. I have no idea about their production and selection process, but all four models look too similar that I wouldnt be surprised if they're produced as one model and then sorted into those 4 models.
Avanti 1 (A1) 61g 250mm/9.84"
Avanti 2 (A2) 60g 255mm/10.04"
Carrera (C1) 60g 255mm/10.04"
Fiddlerman (F1) 60g 255mm/10.04"
I might be doing something wrong since I read that typical balance is between 9.5" - 9.75"
I blind test myself as possibly as I can. I played them before measuring and could already tell A2 feels a bit closer to the Carrera. A2 and C1 also sound similar with C1 still gliding the smoothest compared to the two Avanti's. In my case, I'm definitely crossing out the C1 since it's almost twice the price for such a small difference.
I kept hairs that detached from the bows and I noticed the JonPaul hairs are finer than my Fiddlerman. If only it was easy to interchange the hair, I would totally test that!
I still prefer the overall feel of A1. I'm meeting up with a teacher on Tuesday and will ask his opinion.
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An experienced player can feel what is low-quality hair (or the need for a re-hair) and what is insufficient rosin, for instance. (An experienced player can also feel when a re-hair isn't done quite right -- there's just something slightly off.)
I normally try bows however they come to me -- i.e., with whatever rosin was put on them before. If there's not enough rosin, then I use my own.