I think in all likelihood, this is an opportunity for rapacious capitalism to re-entrench, as it did after the last financial crisis, but I'm not sure that the classical music world will be particularly affected in such a re-entrenchment. If tax reform and a more socialist-minded agenda can actually gain a foothold, then public arts funding could help make for a more sustainable industry, but it seems like kind of a low priority even if it's possible, when you have such dire problems of homelessness, environmental degradation and housing affordability that are so pressing and neglected.
There is a lot of will, and perhaps in a Covid world moreso than ever, to preserve community focused music like local orchestras, if online fundraising is anything to go by. These organizations are typically held afloat by small grants from local governments and donations from the players, with a few players who are lawyers/techies/financiers carrying an outsize portion of the load. I don't see this going away anytime soon, and perhaps it will actually increase in a post-Covid world as adults rediscover instruments in their time off.
Professional orchestras, especially small ones, are different as some of their funding sources are being hit hard by budgetary shortfalls and lack of safety (plus their audiences fall in the most vulnerable risk group).
I would be particularly most afraid of any orchestra which has annual budgets in the $250,000 to $5,000,000 range, as these orchestras are most likely to not carry a preponderance of assets to survive unless they can negotiate some sort of pay freeze for staff, including musicians.
This raises a completely different question about the roll of governments in fostering the arts, but we'll leave that for a different thread.
What that means is that concerts have become even more dependent on financing from other sources than ticket sales. This particularly affects fund-raising concerts for charity organizations.
Another issue is that many soloists from foreign countries are in some cases unable to fly to Italy and then back home, due to travel restrictions.
Once we get through this mess sooner or later, I am confident that things will return to some kind of normal because even a year or two will not change habitual concertgoers' love for this kind of event.
Even in California, which is subject to relatively strict limitations, my semipro orchestra has returned, rehearsing and performing as a string orchestra for now. Last week I also saw a Facebook ad for what I think is a regional orchestra in Northern California (I don't remember exactly who), performing outdoors as a string orchestra.
If you get a non-rainy day, and the orchestra under a huge tent/carp and covered from the sun, these places will allow huge amounts of people. I'm sure you guys will find or will be given all kind of formulas to keep the business floating, relevant and most important, keep classical music alive.
I hate it when people talk about post-covid as the end of the world or the huge change of an era. This looks like the change from 1999 to 2000, people hallucinating and saying "nothing will be the same in this new era". It will pass, and everything will be the same again. Actually, everything will be the same with many improvements, but if people didn't take advantage of this situation to reorganize a lot of things that were messed for years and decades, we will go back to February 2020.
We are not being invaded by aliens, we are not suffering nuclear bomb attacks and losing cities... it's just another crisis of the system, exactly like 2008, but this time plus a "deadly" virus. There's absolutely nothing special about this, I mean, everything is the same, the only difference is a mask, a mask for precaution, not even a mask because if you don't wear it you die, it's just to protect others in case you are infected.
‘Ellume received the US funding to accelerate the clinical testing and manufacturing scale-up of its COVID-19 antigen tests. It has developed three tests: at-home; point-of-care for medical professionals; and another for high-throughput settings, which can complete eight tests at once and is ideal for use at airports, stadiums, offices and other places with crowds.
The at-home test uses an analyser connected to a smartphone via Bluetooth which digitally analyses a self-collected sample from the user’s nasal passage. Results are transmitted through a secure cloud connection, generating a digital certificate of the results.’
Just speaking for myself, before the pandemic honestly we were pretty lazy about going to the symphony -- oh, it's going to take an hour to drive there and park, and what-not, plus there's a lot of really good music local to us -- especially chamber music. But honestly we were getting lazy about going to see that too. But once the pandemic lifts I think there's going to be a sense of "Yay! I didn't die!" and a euphoria that propels us back into restaurants and music venues.
I think we've learned how to live with a lot less air travel, especially for business travel, and I think some of that will stick. Boeing and Airbus have every reason to be clutching their wallets. But there's a good reason not to go flying around the world -- because it's really bad for the environment and it takes you away from your family and because, when you get right down to it, it's a hassle most of us don't need and an expense that I'd personally rather direct toward lab supplies or student wages. I don't think people will feel the same about the local symphony. I don't think we've "learned how to live without it" by streaming old performances or whatever. Our little no-audition community orchestra would be rehearsing next week if COVID were to magically disappear (as we were promised it would, by Easter Sunday no less). I think there's a yearning there, a sense that breathing fresh vitality into our local and regional cultural institutions is how we prove we're still alive once this is all done.
A middle road, which I suspect is where we shall go, is that many will have used this period of increased leisure and decreased money to reset priorities. A lot of wasteful spending will not necessarily resume. But high-quality experiences will still have a public. That means that not everyone will necessarily charge down to the mall to buy silly t-shirts, but they may be more inclined to sit down with friends in a bistro. Perhaps things may more resemble the 50s, when growing prosperity still meant smaller houses and one-car families.
In many cities, there was already an oversupply of good arts groups. Some will gain a competitive edge based on how they are handling this crisis. Others will re-form after some dormancy. Still others will fade away. That doesn't necessarily mean that the total amount of activity will be less.
In the US, the non-car-owning percentage of the population is the most economically fragile, in part because lack of a decent car means unreliable transportation to work.
Besides, the part of the population that is buying larger houses in the first place is the portion of the population that is doing great in this K-shaped recovery.
Note that the trend towards urbanization in the US is decreasing the average size of a home, as people move into apartments/condos (or at the high end, rowhouses) in the urban core.
Most classical music organizations have priced themselves out of the range of casual entertainment. When tickets are $75-125 on a routine basis for the major symphonies, plus $20 in parking, a weekend concert for my family is easily a $250 investment. (And even the community orchestras are often $20-30 per ticket or that's the suggested donation.)
You could buy, as you put it, many silly T-shirts for that amount of money.
The irony is that I found everyone really friendly and helpful. Indeed, whenever I locked my keys in the car (absent minded....) just about anyone could get them out :D Once I even left my keys in the car with the engine running (yes very absent minded) - I came back to a note under the wiper 'left your keys here, they are at the bar'.
Problem was that the "street" was a four-lane boulevard, so we had to walk all the way to a traffic light, cross the street, and then walk back the same distance to the restaurant.
No sweat except for the fact that once on our way we kept running into creepy people and my daughters were attracting unwanted attention. Once we made it to the traffic light and saw a drug deal in process right there, we turned around and went back to the hotel. To take the car, of course.
Classical music and playing the fiddle
Drinking malt whisky (but not getting tiddled)
Amazon packages delivered by hand
A hit from the Pixies - my favourite band!*
Touring the country, the vales and the heights
Exploring the coast and historical sites
Walking the countryside, finding a pub
Arriving back home for a soak in the tub**
*apart from the Fall
A few years ago my daughter-in-law flew to the US from the UK to attend an international science seminar. The plane landed in the early hours and she took a cab to the hotel where she was booked in. Unfortunately, the cab driver apparently misunderstood his instructions (or just didn't care) and left her in a part of town she didn't recognize. At 2am she was wandering with her luggage along a deserted street trying to find her hotel when a police car stopped by her. The officer asked if there was a problem, so she told him. When, in response to the cop's question, she said who she was, why she was in the US, and that she was from Oxford University in the UK, the cop couldn't do enough for her and immediately drove her to her hotel a couple of miles away.
To your question: "will live orchestras be viable in a post-covid world?"
This is not the first and won't be the last. Life goes on.
Brett and Eddy (unfortunately distinct from Bert and Ernie) have a show though.
Finally, no it won't get wiped out regardless, so no fantasies will be fulfilled in that manner. Live Carnegie Hall performances (and others) will be back in due time.
My son's youth string orchestra is also doing outdoor rehearsals. In CA we have the weather going for us for now, but I think as it gets darker and colder, there will be less of it.
I have had more viola/in lessons since the pandemic because I've had them over zoom and haven't had to drive there.
What has been worrying me lately is that I am just less motivated to practice without regular orchestra rehearsals. When I started playing again 14 years ago, after quitting twice, I swore I wasn't going to quit again, but it's starting to feel like that a little bit. I go days without practicing and it doesn't matter. This weekend's playing session inspired me to practice more, and I hope that momentum lasts until I have regular rehearsals again.
I feel that our regional orchestra, the Roanoke Symphony Orchestra, has been very creative in its programming and other offerings in the years prior to the pandemic and I expect they will continue to do that. So, the claim that it's "inarguable" that "the scene has been creatively stagnant" is false, because I'm arguing that point specifically. Maybe young Cotton could share his vision for how he thinks a Mozart symphony or the Dvorak cello concerto could be performed more creatively. To me, the lion's share of the creativity occurred when Mozart and Dvorak were writing their music. The performers' task is to report that music to us faithfully, but with enough of their own individual artistic contribution that the music stays fresh. Often this is the difference between a weak orchestra (or soloist) and a better one, but there is also some responsibility to be borne by the listener to invest himself in the performance and to be receptive toward subtlety.
About young people going to concerts -- young people these days are pretty busy with other stuff. When our kids were school-aged, I would guess they came with us to concerts about half the time. When you do find a career that you enjoy and want to pursue with all of your talent and energy, Cotton, and if you do have a healthy, active family, you may one day be lucky enough to find yourself truly busy. When I go to the symphony and I look around, I see a lot of people who are less busy -- because they have retired from those careers in which they invested themselves so fully, and their families have grown and are on their own. It's not so hard to understand if you are just willing to come out of your shell a little and see things from different perspectives.
I actually do not see how the destruction of the concert scene will "purge" the audience in favor of a younger audience, or how is it "evil" that an older audience favors concerts. I do not see the point behind this revolution.
There are things I do not love about the format of the concerts, but my qualms have nothing to do with attendees, and if I had my way, I am sure stubborn people of any age won't attend anyway.
In short, I do not understand how a "COVID trauma" makes things better for people of any age-even the young.
And remember once again, things will get better in due time.
Are you arguing that people who do go to classical concerts do so because they have a shortage of other activities? That classical music is for the aimless and bored? How would you account for younger people attending massive arena concerts or any number of other entertainment options including binge streaming and festivals and be consistent with that claim independently of genre?
Times when I went to chamber music concerts here, I saw mostly older people, some with difficulties with mobility. I don't think these people made the trip despite difficulty because they had nothing better to do, but because it meant something to them.
Well even that argument depends on how late one has had - 50-somethings might easily have 10-year olds (and therefore be more free for such at an earlier age!), but two points specifically: (1) There's always something else; it is a matter of your priorities and scheduling. If you really wanted to you could get a babysitter. (2) Even better, take the kids along - for their experience and education. If you can't get your kids to behave, of course it's between you and your kids. I made a point of taking my son to concerts fairly often, and for the most part, he didn't disturb anyone (I recall confiscating the program on occasion).
Returning to the point, if concert-going was more engaging, people would make a greater effort to attend.
Not really, the overall audience for classical music skews older - this is a general rule. Of course there are exceptions, they would skew much younger for specifically targeted kids' concerts (even their escorts).
Concerts I often attended were chamber music - first-class musicians, excellent programs, reasonable pricing, central location, and outstanding promotion pricing for young people in the audience, yet my son was usually the only kid, and the next youngest person might have been 40.
One element of this which is entirely reasonable, as Paul suggested, is audience capability. Pop music skewing younger and diminishing with age corresponds to musical maturity; conversely more challenging music skewing older. But the entire demographic seems to be aging, and if younger replacements don't appear, it could go from bad to wiped out. Whether or not it's "bad" somewhere does depend in part on local factors, but overall it hasn't been thriving.
While the audiences for the warhorses are larger overall, the raw numbers of audience members under 40 are clearly larger at other concerts.
I'm sure Frieda and Andrew are right in that the audience also varies with the presentation of the program - its location, choice of material and performers; apparent marketing intent.
Moreover, I might have overstated the aging demographic concern, because it might be a combination of several factors - including the baby boom and post-war culture appetite; with what we're seeing being a bump in the age and taste distribution which is passing through; not representative of the norm. What is to be the new norm is yet to be seen, and to be defined by us as well.
Interesting - new music in a sense. Hopefully it worked out better than digging through my old record collection hoping to find something I previously overlooked generally does. But you never know, one day maybe..
“I was so much older then;
I’m younger than that now.”
– Bob Dylan
Counting on "old folks" to support demand and increasing ticket costs is not a strategy for success. Participation doesn't just happen when you turn 65 or something like that - it generally has previous exposure and interest, often starting young. And declining health significantly reduces participation at 75+ years of age.
All that aside, classical music wasn't doing well before COVID, and is certainly not doing well now. If it is to return and thrive, there would have to be some changes from the past.
Also, I still do not understand why older audiences going to concerts is bad. The young will get old too, if all goes well.
What is the point of the argument, and what do you have to offer to "make younger people attend concerts"?
If you want more young people to attend concerts, besides the scheduling matter discussed above, many things have to change in society to grow the appreciation of "large scale classical music". (Of course, not only "large", but classical in general.) Dumbing it down is a wasted and unproductive effort. One can like all sorts of music and still enjoy a classical live performance. Crossover is not really needed. And people are actually quite loose in what they wear for performances, as far as I can see (I do not mind or care, personally).
Just tell me what is alienating young people from attending concerts. The music? Perceived "snobbery"? I see it as a cultural phenomenon, rather than anything inherently bad in classical. Thus, it is the role of teachers, parents, and society to offer a better appreciation of the concert classical music scene. I bet many of those not in attendance have no idea of what they are missing out!
I vote "no" on dumbing down the repertoire, or making it more of a show (some pieces are enough to impress on their own.) Teach people to appreciate what they are missing on.
(And to all of you who are reading this, do attend concerts whenever you are able to.)
When I was a kid, I thought people age 30 were old, LOL.
If you make a ruckus, giggle a lot, or watch FB/text message during concerts, expect annoyance around you. Not Beethoven's fault. Some older adults make similar noises and get similar treatment. A few people get annoyed by *anything* (including my very existence); ignore them, and watch the performance you came to listen... not worth your time getting agitated over what some irrational individuals may think about you-focus ahead.
Frankly, if you love the music, you'll come to see it if you are able to afford it, and will make the proper arrangements for the most important performances of the year for you. Listening to a CD/high quality stream or MP3 is not the same, and we all know it.
No offense intended, as I am certain many will disagree. I won't relent on this, though. If it is important to us, we'll make the time, and submit to the few "rules" there are.
(I am the least "elite" audience in the world, and am greatly annoyed by snobs... that is not a good reason to avoid concerts of the music I love.)
Just because young people don't go to professional orchestra concerts doesn't mean they're not going to other types of classical performances, whose conditions they may find more enjoyable and therefore worth their time. I have seen more young people going to those (sometimes majority to 90% of the audience), in stark contrast to the old people at professional concerts in big halls. They're not hearing dumbed down repertoire either (ranging from Mahler symphonies to late Beethoven quartets to new music).
Still believe it is a matter of cultural background, and personal priorities. It is not a matter of snobbery. The more conservative music lover would be disgusted with my music taste, or lack thereof.
And lastly, I am not opposed to young people attending non-big Hall recitals/concerts anyway. There is not a single one way to enjoy live music you love, and am sorry I gave the opposite impression.
In any form of live entertainment, including classical music, dismissing people who attend occasionally as insufficiently committed is a recipe for bankruptcy. The people you are dismissing are the majority of the audience.
That is why I said the more important issue is that people are interested since they are young, thus the importance of cultural upbringing. Trying to lure younger audiences to go to events they are not remotely interested in is near-impossible. If they have an interest since childhood, they are more likely to attend as teens and twenty/thirty-something year olds.
When you love something, you do something. This is not meant as an slight to anyone.
In my view, there is little concert halls can do other than cultural outreach programs, and letting others who should care about this get involved as well.
Contemporary music is already part of many modern concert halls programs, and many young people do not necessarily care (no offense intended... it is not an issue with the music.)
That said, audiences also skew younger at less formal venues. Excluding college/university ensembles, I can think of three times I've been to concerts by professional musicians where the average age of the audience was almost certainly under 30:
* all contemporary and mostly newly composed chamber music, at a jazz club
* string quartets by Mozart and Dvorak, and folk tune arrangements by the Danish String Quartet, at a warehouse
* chamber music by Dvorak, Kapustin, and Shostakovich, at a coffee shop
The youngest audience I've seen for professional musicians in a formal venue (average age probably not much above 30) was for chamber music as well: Haydn, Durufle, Martinu, and Klaus Hinrich Stahmer, in a recital hall at a museum.
People generally want to enjoy their music in places where they feel like they fit in and are welcome. Maybe this is wrong to say, but young people usually prefer hanging out with other young people than be surrounded by senior citizens on a Friday or Saturday night. That factors into the types of classical performances they’re willing to attend. It's not only chamber music. Before COVID-19, some university ensembles played standard repertoire to packed auditoriums where the average age of the audience was under 35. It's easy for students to attend these shows too, since they're on campus.
I do not like the suggestion that young audiences "avoid" older people, and that such tendency as a priority would impede them from attending a genuinely good performance on a bigger venue. It would be their problem, and not the venue's fault, were that the case. I never felt unwelcome at any hall when I was younger.
Still, this problem is not as big as it is made to be, in my opinion. Young people still come when there is enough interest. That may sound "offensive" to some, but humans of all ages always make time for things they really enjoy. It may be a valid opinion that for some the Concert Hall is "too old", but then I could argue it is their loss. They could attend both big halls and smaller venues anyway, not just one or the other. But again, I always see teenagers to twenty year olds at most if not all performances I attend, so it is hard for me to relate to the "big halls are old and stodgy!" sentiment.
(Not a free read, however.)
When I was a kid I always wanted to sit between my parents so that I would not have to sit next to a stranger. But it would not have bothered me if the stranger was someone my age. It bothered me more, the older the person was. My suspicion is that there are people who grow up around a lot of elderly people -- interactions in their own home and families, churches, or whatever -- and there are people (like me) whose interactions with elderly people throughout my childhood was limited to seeing my grandparents once every three or four years. I was not comfortable around elderly people, not at all. If that means you'll never vote for me for POTUS or SCOTUS then that's fine.
One other thing about the four concerts I mentioned above with young audiences: none of them were in the Friday and Saturday night time slots that classical concerts usually occupy here. If I remember correctly, two were Sunday afternoons, one was a Saturday morning, and one was a Monday night.
It noticed something similar when my orchestra tried playing a few Sunday matinee concerts. We didn't continue doing it because we never sold more than half of the tickets for Sunday. But I noticed that I would routinely have 8-10 friends in the audience (mostly millennials) on Sundays, and for Saturday night concerts it's typically 0-2 and never more than 4.
Since I am not rich myself, I usually look at a season and set aside tickets, usually via subscription, and make sure I will attend no matter what. There are also "partial view" tickets for some halls that are economical, and it is better to have far away balcony seats that not attending at all. I am no longer young, but I feel it is my part to support the artists and music I love. This is not sanctimonious on my part. I feel we can do more for music than just practicing, performing, and/or listening to our favorite recordings.
Of course not everyone can afford to go to all concerts one would like. Choose the ones that are most important, and just go and enjoy.
Big halls are not for older people-it is a sort of excuse for preferring to do something else with one's time-which *is* fine, but not the Hall's-or the elderly's-fault.
I agree more time slots make it convenient for more people of many ages and backgrounds, but many orchestras probably cannot accomodate it.
I find that sometimes big cities take for granted the wealth of performances they have (had) throughout the years, taking them a bit for granted. I know I have missed too many concerts I could have made the effort to attend, and it was not about time in my case. My loss, to be sure.
No offense is intended, regardless. Hope you can all go when things get better for everybody.
You mention professional sports. Most professional sports ticket revenue is not from superfans but from casual fans who only buy tickets occasionally. For every season ticket holder, there are a hundred or more people who follow the team casually but only go to games when there isn't something they're more interested in at the same time, and if those people show up to just 5% of the games they still make up the vast majority of the spectators.
You cannot sustain live music or any other form of live entertainment solely on people who "love" it. You have to cater to people who "like" but do not "love" it by making it easier to attend.
That is why I boil it down to interest. Increasing the amount of people who love and would attend the performances is perhaps the only "solution" I can "offer". I cannot blame concert halls in all good conscience. And as I mentioned before, young people *do attend* these concerts.
Might depend on the sport. Something like 85 percent of National Football League (NFL) ticket sales are season packages.
With college football, season tickets are in such high demand that the teams can require fans to reach certain minimum donation thresholds just to earn the privilege of buying season tickets. Hard to research locally right now because the Hokies have suspended their ticket sales. I live less than a mile from Lane Stadium. I have neighbors who park cars on their lawns and some of them only sell season tickets for lawn parking ($10-30 per game depending on how close you are). The biggest such operation that I have ever seen is run by Ann Arbor Pioneer High School, right across the street from Michigan Stadium, which holds over 100,000 people. The school system banks over $3 million per year just from that.
When you see folks roll into town in their brand new $75000 pickup trucks or full-sized SUVs, you realize most of these are not people who will ever be going to the orchestra. These are people who will gladly buy a second home near the stadium -- there are several such homes in my neighborhood, that are used maybe 10 weekends per year by their owners, including all the game weekends. All of them have seen significant renovation ($$$). The mind boggles at what people will spend to enjoy sports. As they are walking by toward the stadium you can see that they are each wearing hundreds of dollars in branded spirit-wear and accessories. A cheap VT polo shirt is $45 -- I have a couple of them. The expensive ones are $75 to $125. For a polo shirt.
What's required is a sense of perspective. If it costs me $200 to take my family to see a concert, which is what we might pay to see the Roanoke Symphony Orchestra at the Moss Center, then I just have to remind myself what else I might buy for $200, like three violin lessons. $200 is a quantity that I wouldn't be spending every week. If I had to guess I would say that we spend $600-1000 per year going to concerts and recitals (but, obviously, not right now).
That said, I think the analogy still applies. The Los Angeles Philharmonic fills well over 90% of capacity with subscribers and single tickets for subscription concerts are extraordinarily difficult to buy. That isn't nearly representative of orchestras.
Sports is a way for men (and some women) to experience something big and communal. It's on TV. There is a lot of excitement, even though the game may be blah.
Nothing in a classical music concert looks like this. It's all inward. Introversion is a bad characteristic in many societies. Leonard Bernstein was a brilliant marketeer of classical music, but there is no one like him now. (BTW I cannot stand his talks.)
The way some people always go on aboyt so many old people at concerts, or the way people fidget or cough, is a kind of destructive behaviour that is unique to classical music. These comments are intended to indicate the superior sensitivity to the tiniest distractions during music, but it's really nonsense.
Never mind, but if I had to choose, to take what to a desserted (wow, not enough nutrition these days) island... well the violin. That's the only object you can take with you.... otherwise objects are not permitted.... so technically you're a ............ hahaha you're so kool!!!! ;D
First classical concert was at age 12 when I went with a friend's family, after getting hooked through classical radio. But I didn't start attending concerts regularly until college, which was the first time I had the chance. I was only ever able to get to two live concerts before I graduated from high school.
Andrew I think the analogy between NFL and LA Phil is a good one. NFL might be kind of an outlier but it's an elephant-in-the-room type of outlier. The NFL takes in twice as much total revenue as the NBA, for example, even though NBA teams play five games for every NFL game. (An NFL team also employs over 50 players whereas an NBA team might have a dozen or so).
Music is part of what it means to be human and while how we hear/witness "classical" music will go through changes, it will continue. The only way that the pandemic will eliminate music is if the pandemic eliminates all the humans.
Age-wise, for "going to classical concerts because I wanted to", it would be after 30: established enough in second career (to justify discretionary spending), gotten over the complexes ("classical music makes me sleepy" and "it's weird to go by myself"). And I had started playing community orchestras and needed to be reminded what pros sounded and looked like.
In the Before time, I was also getting my students started young (well, they go if the parents take them): sent them to family programs at the local symphony, pops/movie, a few have actually attended the standard classical programs. There was a small chamber orchestra that performed in a venue less than a mile away from our rehearsal location, and that was easy to promote, especially whenever they were presenting repertoire that I could tie to ours. To Elise's point, we even partnered with them to have my students perform during one of the pre-concert receptions, which of course meant most would stay for the main program.
The 85% mask-wearing people getting sick sounds like anti-science propaganda. In our heavily divided times, it is best to check our sources. Not every doctor or "truth teller" has a clean or honest agenda (Dr. Atlas being an horrible case of this.)
Of course indoor activities are worse. But I do know that in due time indoor concerts will be back-no one can stop music, as Mr. Wells suggested above. A matter of us working together carefully and intelligently, to make it happen faster.
Be careful to still properly wear masks whenever appropriate. Being safe and alive for your loved ones and each other has nothing to do with politics.
Best wishes to all. Do not quit your dreams over our current temporary circumstances.
The study's important finding, however, was that people who got infected were much more likely to have dined indoors at restaurants (not wearing masks while dining), and much more likely to have been at large in-home gatherings (where masks are not worn nearly as much). The 85% number that's being cherry-picked out of the study is much less meaningful.
I was sixteen when I first bought my own ticket to a symphony concert -- to the Philadelphia Orchestra, where I could get cheap tickets through my college dorm, and where my teacher was a violinist. I saw very, very few professional concerts as a child.
As for masks, there have been lots of mask-related surveys published, but I'm not sure any of them really got at the issue of how well they prevent disease from a cold epidemiological perspective -- at least I could not find any with a 10-minute Google search. But you don't only have to study the incidence of COVID-19. You can also analyze the incidence of other airborne-transmitted illnesses like the cold and the flu. But watch out for the unexpected, such as people who use masks being more lax about other guidelines such as distancing.
@Lydia I think they call it "pimento spread" now, or maybe that's what I see because I live in "the south."
Adalberto, i did not follow this thread, but I think the whole issue with masks is not a question of neglect, but ignorance. The sister of a friend was a politician, and she ensured me (I did not know about this) at her workplace, that the wuhan provence level 4 biolaboratory is a nonsense from the point of view of the biospherical spread of the virus. I believe it was an accidental leak.
Mainly because biosuit method includes taking on and off the suit, which must be devoid of any molecules capable of interaction by living tissue. So, only hostile biomass like viruses are the dominant lifeforms in a sterile chemical vacuum.
I think concerts are risky, if we don`t wear the masks.
Krisztian wrote, in one of his more lucid moments, "The whole issue with masks is not a question of neglect but ignorance." The origin of the virus notwithstanding, at least in the US, refusal to wear masks in public places is more than just ignorance. Otherwise how do you explain not just one "Starbucks Karen," but two?
Also, if Easy Cheese would just hire me to do their marketing and product development (I'm thinking CTO would suit my needs just fine), I would change their product from cheese to Cheez, so that I could then change the product name to EZ Cheez (or maybe even ĒZ Chēz) in order to save money on letters. That way, you could probably stuff more chez into the bottle and reverse the pernicious trend of shrinkflation that is the bane of any upstanding consumer.
THEN, I would make some kind of propellant recycling system, or escape tube to be paired with a much more explicit marketing campaign to bring in the whippit-enthusiast community, and just like that, sales are through the roof, and people have something to better pass the time during quarantines.
Edit:Figured it out. FYI - The line above the e in ē is called a "macron"
"Philadelphia Cream Cheese" has nothing to do with "cheesesteaks" which are not called "cheesesteaks" in Philadelphia, they're just called steaks. Here's some history for the curious:
pat's, geno's, billy bobs (for the west Philly crowd) all had their devotees.
provolone was the cheez way to go. with mayo
as an aside, having sampled cheesesteak attempts in many other parts of the country, can't figure out why they are unable to do it correctly. the bread is wrong (usually too hard and thick), the meat to rest-of-sandwich ratio is off.
You may have been right at one point Paul, but then time and the demands of people's implanted memories brought this into existence.
Well, at least the last one seems on point with that menu.... :)
No! COVID is not going to wipe out the NY Phil or the LA Phil even though they cancelled the rest of their seasons. They will be back. There is too much inertia. They may have to renegotiate with their unions, and there may be some shared discomfort there. You know I teach at a public university and we discussed having a 20% pay cut. Nobody wants that but it's better than firing people. My local orchestra is a freeway phil with a low musician payroll, so they'll be fine too, although I don't really know what their finances are like. They are supported by community industries including banks and such that are quite stable right now.
Here in Italy the Covid situation is getting pretty bad as the weather cools. You can't trust the official data on new infections because there is a lot more testing going on, however the hospital IC rooms are rapidly filling up again with Covid patients and that's not a number you can argue with.
On our Prime Minister's table is a decree to make bars and restaurants close at 6:00 PM (no one in Italy eats dinner that early!) and we are already under a curfew from 11:00 PM to 5:00 AM. And they've closed theaters, movie houses and concert halls again.
We're not out of the woods yet...
One of the sad things is people stay indoors more, and that's not healthy either. Chances are there are going to be a lot of depressive complaints during the winter, and even for people who get thru this without catching the virus it will take a long time before the way they look at life will be the same.
Maybe South Korea has the infrastructure and contact-tracing to have symphony activity, but western governments are abjectly failing at mounting a meaningful response - That LSO testing regimen is pure hubris.
Now is not the time for stupidity. Stupidity later.
We're lucky the survival rate is so incredibly high (especially with treatment), contrary to the media circus' fearmongering. I'm aware this is anecdotal evidence, but I know several 65+ who tested positive, never checked in to a hospital, and were fine after a week of mild fever and cough... odds are my whole family had it and never even noticed, because we were all in close contact.
Whenever governments have set their eyes on individual freedoms, it has historically always resulted in terrible loss.
Edited to add: A google search indicates Milton Friedman did take violin lessons. He never progressed to viola though.
Come on! Real Tea Party freedom fighters scream, "Give me liberty from seatbelts or give me death! Remember the Alamo Drafthouse! One if by Disneyland, Two if by Seaworld!"
The US is #10 in death rate in the world, and #11 in infection rate in the world. The rate of infection in the US is almost 100x higher than New Zealand. By the way, New Zealand is ranked #1 on the Cato Institute's human freedom index - The US is #15. So maybe you want a landlocked country with some form of representative democracy - Let's choose Botswana, with the highest freedom index of a landlocked country in sub-Saharan Africa, coming in at #60 in the world - #125 in the world infection rate, with 10x lower infection rate and a 70x lower death rate than the US.
Get real man! Terrible loss...
Funny how the libertarians really raised their voices up against the Patriot Act and the Invasion of Iraq, which you haven't even heard of, since the libertarians saved us from that crappy timeline.
It is not the government's business to decide whether you should be allowed to visit a bar. It is as you said; people will decide for themselves whether they want to go. And that won't result in more deaths, because we see restaurants and visitors taking all proper precautions anyways---not to mention the bar owner won't hang himself because he probably won't have had his life's work completely vanish before his eyes.
Those infection / death rates are interesting to look at and speculate about, but scientifically useless because of one huge reason: a lot of people who contract the disease never report infection because their symptoms are either not severe or nonexistent. As I said, I likely had the virus myself, and thought it was just a random cold or fatigue. Another couple fun facts are that many tests that were in use were inaccurate (I heard some early ones were actually worse than chance statistically) and that a number of deaths have been wrongly attributed to COVID when there was comorbidity involved. Also worth noting is that the US conducts a lot of tests compared to other countries.
Yes! It is a terrible loss. Did I mention my parents are from Soviet Poland? That my grandparents saw the tail end of the Nazi regime? I'm NOT comparing oranges to oranges here, but there are some eerie similarities that have come up during quarantine time.
I believe that my mother would not survive an infection, and am grateful to all those who are doing what they can to reduce the chance that she and others get infected, which includes limitations. From the early days I've had to face the question of what risks I can take and to what extent I could put her and others at risk, and how I would feel if I was a carrier to them or others, and the only conclusion I could come up with was to exercise caution to the extent possible. This requires all of us to be as responsible as we can - to voluntarily recognize that others are at much greater risk than ourselves through our own and our collective actions.
This illness mirrors an illness in our society that is callous towards others in favour of ourselves. We the healthy and strong are quite likely to live through this without long-term harm and perhaps even come out better for it in time, but the many weaker ones, including financially weaker individuals and institutions, need our support to survive.
Classical music, big and small, is on perpetual life support as it is not self-sufficient financially. Even the large apparently successful institutions do so not only with ticket sales but require significant donor support. There is no vaccine for this condition, and COVID alone will not change it one way or another.
Do agree, however, that in the US, because of millions of fellows with similar lack of patience to the detriment of everyone else a la "Cotton", recovery has never reached the point it should have. These people fail to understand that we all want things to be better, but "my rights and freedom!" are getting in the way of the normalcy they so much desire.
Over here, too many people worship the orange god and his message of positive nothingness. You are lucky you are not in our shoes, Mr. "Mather". Even as he will be ousted soon, too much damage due to horrible negligence and a bad example/lack of leadership has been done. We could have done so much better, but politics and "us vs them" has costed us mightily.
If Mr. Mather had a son/daughter/mother/father die of COVID, I doubt he would keep believing what he posted above.
Have hearts, and put yourselves in the place of those who are suffering-not only the sick, but also those in terrible economic uncertainty. A faster recovery helps keeping more people alive, and things getting back to normal sooner. The more reckless we are, the further we delay the recovery. Let us make no excuses for recklessness-disguised as "freedoms"-and think of others other than ourselves.
Think of seat belts and no smoking zones if it helps. Sometimes we must relinquish our "rights" in order to do what's right.
Best wishes and safety to all. Keep practicing and making music you love.
Here is just one paper about a single superspreader event that resulted in 106 cases.
Here's a superspreading bar in Lansing Michigan
Here's the whole database of superspreader events - You can find instances of bars, weddings, meals.
You see how many nursing homes are affected? Get that QAnonsense out of here - I'm giving you facts and they're going to be totally wasted on you, kid, and I thought you were a thinker.
My parents and brothers lived under the Soviet system in Poland - You don't know the first thing.
Cotton's magic trick is disappearing up to 210,000 unnecessary lives lost in the US - Heaven forbid we shut down some bars, because bars are corporations and corporations are persons, and the important lesson from this pandemic is the respecting of a person's rights.
And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free!
I beg to disagree. Not everyone can or wishes to be "educated". Just about everyone I know who is in a business in contact with the public (bar, restaurant, retail) will tell you stories of clients who will not wear a mask or maintain the proper distance even when asked politely to do so. One friend of mine, a bank branch manager, had to call the police after a client refused to wear one.
You an find a video here where violence broke out inside a supermarket near Cremona when a security guard asked two men to wear a mask:
Wearing a mask outside one's home has been mandatory in Italy for quite a while now. Evidently, the more rigid meausures by the government that went into effect today were necessary thanks to a minority of infection-spreading fools, whose only immunity seems to regard good sense and civility.
Freedom is not "I'm going to do what I want regardless of the consequences."
Remember "freedom fries"? It's one of the most abused words in the book.
Dimitri I understand things are getting quite bad again where you are. I hope you will be well.
A hogie roll? Reminds me of Day of the Tentacles...... my favourite game at that time. Image, getting back from mount Olympos (and the polises), and then submerging in a story of a mad professor ordering a diamond to fix his time machine.
Dimitri, thanks for the update! I only know that Félix Lajkó (do you know him, by the way?) had to cancel a concert, because he lives in srbija. Ok, ok, I was at his concert once, but I don't know these guys, and I have nothing to do with Kraft.
The other game I liked was splinter cells, there was even a demo show here on a boat at BP, but I have no idea who those guys are either.... :(
yes I know... that won't stop the virus, I agree....
Paul!!!!! If you want to know why, watch Michelangelo Antonioni, la notte....
I saw that film 15 years ago, and I'm still wondering why on earth Elise behaves like that? The only conclusion I drew, is that I will probably never understand, so, I just shut up, and let her be. Girls are smarter anyway, and they drive better too. :D
Do you know what 3,000,000 dead people looks like? And what about the unknown number that will be crippled?
I have a better idea. I have a plan that if we reduce the population density there will naturally be improved social distancing. Why don't you and all the other herd-immunity proponents simply commit suicide for the common good? Oh, you don't like my plan? I wonder why.
Not true. Such measures have worked in the countries, like China, that have managed to implement them.
Infection and death rates here in Oregon have been much lower than in other states for a good reason: our early and effective lockdown.
"It is not the government's business to decide whether you should be allowed to visit a bar. "
Why not? The government has lots of rules and regulation about what we can and cannot do. Just because you like to go to bars doesn't mean the government shouldn't forbid it in some circumstances. I'd like to do many things, like just jump on an airplane without going through security, or dump my toxic waste in the river, or text while I drive (because I'm really good at doing both).
"Did I mention my parents are from Soviet Poland? That my grandparents saw the tail end of the Nazi regime? I'm NOT comparing oranges to oranges here, but there are some eerie similarities that have come up during quarantine time."
Correct, you are not comparing oranges to oranges here. And yet you made the comparison anyway.
If there any comparisons to fascism to be made, they do not involve the governors telling us to stay home. There is a reason why Oregon has not, up to now, suffered the same rates of infection and death that other states have.
"Those infection / death rates are interesting to look at and speculate about.."
Some of this does not involve speculation--one only need look at the fact that, in many hotspots, the hospitals are full of COVID patients. That's all you might need to know, especially if, like me recently, you have an emergency ride to a hospital.
I did not have COVID. But what would have happened had the local hospital been so full that they had to turn me away? This is an aspect of the pandemic that so many people stupidly ignore.
That said I thought I'd shed some light on the Covid issue that perhaps not everyone is aware of: you stand a higher chance of getting severely sick with it if you have Neanderthal genes.
The presence of Neanderthal genes in populations seems to mirror to a large extent the Covid spread; and it could also explain why Africa has been largely free of Covid despite sometimes desperate medical and hygenic conditions. Natives of the African continent in fact do not have Neanderthal genes practically at all.
So it might be a good time to research your family tree to see if any of your family had more-or-less sanctioned relations with a Neanderthal...
I don't know if there is such a thing as a neanderthal, but if there is, they probably eat GM corn, hahaha
I think I understand why you wrote "lucid moments". I tell you why. It turned out, almost everybody was lying!
Just an example, from my life. Buri used to write these kind of things, so I think this will be ok.
I was treated with drug induced psychosis. I never really used anything else, just weed. It turned out, I did not have, and do not have any psychotic state, it was a lie. I had this paranoid idea, that CIA agents receive 750.000Huf ( 200 HUF is about a buck) for a job here in Budapest, and they actually poke your head with a stick (like an electrotelescope) from behind, and when you get angry, they put you in jail, and psychiatry, because you have a problem.
Well I did have psychotic states from weed, but everybody has, the solution is not locking you up in a closed ward with neanderthals (haha joking) for 4 months, receiving about 500mg of cisordinol per week. the solution is to not smoke weed for two days.
So, I actually have memory problems because of those hospital drugs. The example: I spent 5 months at a remote rehab (I had to, my parents threw me out from the family house where I grew up, and my flat was rented. Actually my ex girlfriend was renting it, but I did not remember, or recognize her). So, I found a job at a decent bar, like 20m from my flat. And my parents insisted to take another job closer to where I was living with them (near Déli rail station), so they made sure I cannot move back to my flat, or go there. I had to. The funny thing is, that the owner of that place lied to me, and did not sign me up for tax, state job, don't know how you call in the U.S, NAV here.
So I was to receive a social security money from the government for job search aid, after I moved back to my flat (beginning of COVID). I did not get anything, because I was not signed up for NAV.
So, I bought my flat from my grandmother's house (who died among strange consequences, along with my grandfather). But my parents lied to me about how much money they got from selling their flat, and so they had to ask for a loan at a bank.
I did sign something like a "haszonélvezeti jog", which means that that right if given, is stronger than ownership, It is about right of using the benefits of the house owned by somebody else. I'm not sure if it is good for anything, but that is another issue. So, they took two loans from the same bank, and somehow when the first loan expired, another "haszonélvezeti jog" appeared on the land office papers (I saw it on the net), for my stepfather. That was exactly the time my first treatment was in hospital, and I had to move away from my flat.
I don't understand why they wanted my flat so much its quite small actually. My stepfather was like very important scientist, with like a Volvo car with a chaffeur, owned by the HU academy of sciences.
Anyway, I lost my Balaton lake property from my grandfather, because I had to gift it to my sister, who pretends she is with my parents. It's ok, she'll not throw me out from anywhere, don't worry :)
Krisztian, it sounds like you are safe and sound! Are you familiar with the song "Erdõ, erdõ de magos a teteje", that Bartok arranged for his "New Hungarian Folk Song"?
Are these songs known to the average person in Hungary? What a fascinating language...
wow amazing. Yes I know bartók. Only thing is, if you get a picture with a arrow-cross thug guy-glass photoshopped to it, nothing would happen. It's just I think you can never talk with any old lady at the food store about hogie rolls anymore, in any Christian country.
what about this?
I actually gave a violin lesson, and my student liked this video. Did the homework, and the above is supposed to be derived from this:
strange. Does anybody really know when gregorian was flourishing?
It was supposed to be around the scholastic era, Duns Scotus, St Tom of Aquino, Ferenc of assasin. But... if you remember from school, the notation of the gregorian is entirely different.
It is there, in front of your eyes. Everybody knows this.
What does "Kreatura" means in latin? A creature? What kind of creature? Like a minotaurus from the greek island?
Why not? Imagine a meteorite (which synchronizes nicely with the ice age) which disrupts gene regulation, leading to mutations in the population. At that time there was no GM plant, for sure...
??? I don't know, I1m just philosophiseing....
You know, it's kind of interesting really. One of the problems that I see in the writing of college students (and sometimes graduate students) is that what they commit to paper really is not very well translated from what is in their heads. So it makes sense to them internally, but to an objective reader (and by definition, that's me), it's sometimes almost rubbish. I have seen this in fourth-year grad students who are, in other ways, obviously highly intelligent and even creative people. I wonder if there is something about the experiences of folks like Krysztian that could help us understand what is going on there.
There is a wonderful book that I would recommend to anyone who has curiosity about unusual psychological phenomena: "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat" by Oliver Sacks. It is a brilliantly researched and beautifully written (and warm-hearted) book. Sacks was a chemist by training and a neurologist by profession -- and a fine musician by reputation.
Why not? Imagine a meteorite (which synchronizes nicely with the ice age) which disrupts gene regulation, leading to mutations in the population. At that time there was no GM plant, for sure..."
Creatura, with a C means "all that's been created" or "the entire creation" i.e. all living things. It's plural.
I believe there are many places online where you can look up the lyrics to Dies Irae with a parallel translation.
The minotaur obviously was not part of the Judeo-Christian church tradition. The "Greek island" is Crete, famous for its remnants from the Minoan era, ballpark 1800 to 1300 BC.
Maybe it's a historical coincidence that the Minoan age and most likely the other early Greeky settlements on the mainland of around 1600 BC were set back badly by a volcano eruption. Not the same as a meteorite, but still a major blast.
Creare means to create. It gives the gerundive creatura, which can mean a feminine thing "to be created" or "things (neuter plural) to be created". "Creata" is a thing or things created. I suppose God's creation, if creatura, is from his pre-creation pov. I only read Greek Bibles, not Latin ones. (for the record, I'm an atheist, but there's nothing wrong with ancient wisdom literature)
The Minotaur was creatus (I suppose: maybe he was just natus), but far more he was a "monstrum", a thing shown (monstrare = demonstrate) to the senses, whence monster.
I understand your concerns. its ok. ill promise ill never get worse again.... im taking really good care of myself. I do not drink alcohol.
I think, in the first place, lots of people don't care what you really say. They don't even process the auditory signal, by shock, so they cannot help that. Or, some do not translate anything into semantic categories.
The other hing is, that usually mind mind is musical. This is what mekes me happy.
I like other things, like programming a bit.
I think you cannot understand how a neural network works. You know the mathematical rules by which you instantiated (which is a oop, anything like java or c# language state of mind).... but you cannot know what happens in a random layered simple neural network.
I wanted to share this:
One of the things I really thankful is that they took the responsibility of entereing the church premises, and some months, or more, and I knew how to behave, so I don't get into trouble, or end up in a hospital.
One more thing, and then I'll stop writing for some time, maybe till Xmas, because this is a foreign forum for me, and so....
I cannot tell you why.... but I actually thought about it. But you can figure it out yourself :)
This is a photo of my sister and a family friend in India. Hint: I downloaded it from the internet.........
if you can find this photo on the net (it is there), you'll understand why .... cheers, k
I did receive help from telecommunications companies from abroad, regarding my problems with a phone provider here.
And I am not writing usually these kind of things in private...
So, I learned a bit of data science, I mean, I saw the docs. But, I think, if you really want to understand how that works, there is a simple way.
Around 1980-89 (Maybe I'm wrong) only three identifiers existed for a citizen (here).
Name, Gender, and ID card No. That time "Központi statiszikai hivatal) did use algorithms with card programmed (paper caard) supercomputers :)
Then came social security numbers, Ad preferences, anything else.
You can figure it out ;-)
I was wondering. whether it is really true. You know, the things people were talking about at this site.......
wandering, sorry. Sorry for the....... .... nono, sorry for misinterpreting certain things :))
This discussion has been archived and is no longer accepting responses.
Violinist.com is made possible by...
Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases
Violinist.com Summer Music Programs Directory
Johnson String Instrument/Carriage House Violins
Discover the best of Violinist.com in these collections of editor Laurie Niles' exclusive interviews.
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 1, with introduction by Hilary Hahn
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 2, with introduction by Rachel Barton Pine
The Covid crisis increasingly affects so many aspects of life for everyone, and its resolution appears so uncertain and so far off in the future, that the question you raise is (I am sure) is in the minds of every musician and music-lover.
Let us hope and pray that the answers can be found, and as soon as possible.