Kreutzer's sequel?

Edited: May 12, 2020, 10:04 AM · I have Googled this and can't immediately see an answer. Does Kreutzer's sequel "Etudes des diverses positions et démanchés pour violon" not have an opus number? Is it not in IMSLP? Has any of you ever seen it or know where I can find it?

This link just seems to go around in circles
http://www.senza-basso.info/en/search/publisher/Jean_Andre

Replies (16)

May 12, 2020, 10:58 AM · Kreutzer’s sequel is Rode 24 Caprices
Edited: May 12, 2020, 6:52 PM · I go along with the Rode choice. Although some of the Rode "24" are obviously addressing technical issues (passages in thirds or broken octaves, for example) there are others that would not be out of place in a performance. Some of these latter comprise a slow lyrical first section followed by a quick second section, common in a lot of music of Rode's time, also as evinced in Kreisler's P&A Pugnani pastiche. These are perhaps the ones to consider initially if public performance beckons.

Incidentally, the Rode "24" progress through 24 keys, so if you want to work on something in six flats, it's there waiting.

May 12, 2020, 7:56 PM · The harder book of Dont is a challenging set of studies too.
May 12, 2020, 11:40 PM · Most of Kreutzers works lacks opus numbers, not totally uncommon in those days (Like Mozart).
Regarding the work... It might be an other work by him, it might also be a re-package of other etudes he wrote. I have never seen it, nor any source (from that time) that calls it a "sequel", only an early advertisement.

From the title we can learn that it is position and shifting studies.

May 13, 2020, 5:10 AM · Yes, perhaps I should have translated the title. I assumed it was obvious, although I only guessed that démanchés meant shifts.
May 13, 2020, 4:07 PM · More than the other Etude books, the famous Kreutzer 42 covers a wider range of technical levels, and is not in order of difficulty. A student that has just enough skill to do # 2,3,& 5 will run into trouble when they get to 8--13. It's OK to have more than one etude book on your desk, postpone some etudes and overlap books. Mazas bk 2 is commonly used before Kreutzer. The Dont Op. 37 has some very useful fingering problems in lower positions. The already mentioned Rode set and Fiorillo can be started before finishing Kreutzer.
Edited: May 14, 2020, 3:58 PM · In the Peters Edition of Kreutzer's Etudes the editor, Friedrich Hermann, suggests the following progressive order of study:

2, 5, 3, 6, 9, 7, 4, 8, 10, 15,

11, 16, 14, 17, 13, 18, 12, 22, 29, 27,

19, 24, 21, 25, 20, 1, 23, 26, 28, 30,

31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 33, 38, 39, 32, 42, 40, 41.

This is, of course, just one person's suggestion and is not an absolute. There is no reason why the order couldn't be changed here and there to suit a pupil's requirements. But note the sensible placement of Etude 1 in the list.

I remember in one of Heifetz's recorded TV master workshops back in the '60s, at the end, as he was about to put away his violin, he ordered one of the advanced students (who had doubtless worked on all 42 Etudes at some time) to go home and work on Etude 4, presumably to cure shortcomings that Heifetz had perceived in the student's execution of up bow staccatos.

May 14, 2020, 5:04 PM · Does anyone know if Rode's Caprices were, like Paganini's, written as little virtuosic show-offs for use in concert, or were they written, like Kreutzer, primarily as etudes?
May 14, 2020, 7:15 PM · I think many, but not all, of the Rode Caprices were indeed intended to be played as performance pieces. Some of them manage to combine the performance aspect with good technical training - see No 7, for example.

Btw, were Paganini's Op 1 caprices ever performed in public in his time, by him or anyone else?

May 14, 2020, 8:27 PM · Paganini did not perform his caprices publicly. The first player to treat them as performance pieces was Ruggiero Ricci.
May 14, 2020, 8:53 PM · Thats an interesting little tidbit to know
May 14, 2020, 11:33 PM · It is true that we don't have any documentation that Paganini performed any of his caprices in public we have some documentation (Moser wrote that Ernst told Joachim) that he (Ernst) heard Paganini prepare them for encores.

But Ricci was not the first to treat them as performance pieces, we have documentation of Sivori, Ernst, David, Joachim etc that performed them during the 18'hundreds.

Ricci was not even the first in modern times, even if some claim that he was the first to perform the complete 24 without piano accompaniment.

May 15, 2020, 5:00 AM · Trevor do you have some historical source for that (about the Rode caprices) or is it just what you "think"? It's an interesting question but I have no sources. I personally "think" they were educational material, as Rode taught a lot (I believe). They were also published by him when he was already around 40 (according to Wikipedia which again has no source :-)
May 15, 2020, 10:14 AM · Jean, yes, it is my "thinking", or personal opinion, based on my observation that the Rode Caprices have more performance material in them than do most books of technical etudes. This could tie in with Rode's teaching; perhaps teaching pupils the art of performance with pieces that can stand up to public performance but are Rode's own and not in the repertoire. Documentary evidence (published programmes) of public performances of a Rode caprice is unlikely to have survived, even if such programmes were ever published.
Edited: May 15, 2020, 1:01 PM · I think that the study of orchestral excerpts is of more practical use than working on etudes which will never be used professionally. Excerpts tend to be much shorter than the standard etudes in order to give an audition committee a good idea about a players strengths and weaknesses in a very short period of time, thus are like mini-etudes.
May 15, 2020, 2:03 PM · Does anybody who has played through the Rode Caprices think they helped with technique any more than working through repertoire? I've been wondering if I should start working on them. I've been going through the Kreutzer I never did as a kid and I think it's been immensely helpful for intonation and double stops. Much more helpful than if I had simply done repertoire in place of Kreutzer.

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