What happens after Viotti 22?

March 20, 2020, 4:14 PM · Hi,

It looks like I' m obsessed by repertoire, but we just assigned me Viotti 22
I've played other Viottis(23&12),Kreutzer's 9th and 10th concertos and one Mozart concerto (n°3)
What do we generally play after?
I've think about these:
-Bruch n°1 (except the 3 mov)
-Saint-Saens n°3(all mov)
-Khachaturian (don't want to play it)
-Kabalevski (don't want to play it)
-Maybe Lalo 'SE(1st mov only)
-Maybe another Mozart

Is there anything I'm missing ?
Is my list wrong?

Cheers

Replies (30)

March 20, 2020, 4:26 PM · People do usually do Bruch, I did Mozart 5.
March 20, 2020, 5:19 PM · Do Bruch. It's the only way of determining whether you're at the Bruch Level.
Edited: March 20, 2020, 6:40 PM · Viotti 23? Chronologically speaking.
March 20, 2020, 6:43 PM · It looks like you asked this same question about 6 months ago, Guillermo.

I did Viotti 22, followed by Vieuxtemps 2, Kreisler Praeludium & Allegro and then Wieniawski 2.

I don't think Vieuxtemps 2 is commonly taught, aside from certain schools, like the Russian school, but it's a worthwhile intro to more virtuosic playing like in Wieniawski.

Different teachers have their styles and reasons for doing their thing.

March 20, 2020, 7:26 PM · Typically: DeBeriot 9 (if you didn't do it before Viotti 22, as they are not always taught in the same order), and then Kabelevsky, and maybe Conus, before Bruch. Kreisler's Praeludium and Allegro somewhere in there, as well, and often the Vitali Chaconne and the Wieniawski Legende.

March 20, 2020, 7:36 PM · I personally didn’t play Viotti 22, but have a friend who did. He played that, then Winter by Vivaldi, and the Bruch, then Mendelssohn. I personally did Mozart No. 3, Bruch, took a concerto break with the Devil’s Trill Sonata, and then jumped into Wieniawski No.2. Lalo is about the same level as Bruch, Saint Seans No.3 is much above both of them, about the same level as Wieniawski. Hope this helps!
March 21, 2020, 11:13 AM · Saint-Saens first concerto in A looks interesting. There is a nice looking copy available on IMSLP through the Classical Music Library of Thailand Project (2015).
Edited: March 21, 2020, 1:21 PM · I really love Viotti 22, delightful music!

I don't see any reason not to familiarize oneself with the other Mozart concertos, especially 4 and 5 (since you have done 3). Number 2 is delightful and #6 (Eb major) is an interesting challenge compared to the others and good prep for taking on the violin part of the Sinfonia Concertante - then find a violist to play it with! The violist does not have to be at the same high level as the violinist.

These days (and here) many people seem to shy away from the MENDELSSOHN, which was my next one after the Mozarts and Bach #1 (A minor). From Mendelssohn I went to the BEETHOVEN (another one that doesn't seem to show up on the lists here), but that was because my father got tickets to take me to see Heifetz play it for my 16th birthday and I wanted to be ready - (there is nothing like a powerful motivating force). Heifetz 78 RPM recordings of the major concertos were the only ones we had at home in 1950 (Mendelssohn, Beethoven, Brahms, and Tchaikovsky).

I found a wonderful book at the local music store with 10 major violin concertos with piano accompaniment for $1.25. It was from trying to work through that book that I developed a decent level of sight reading ability, but except for the Bach#2 I never got any of them to what I would consider an acceptable performance level.

March 21, 2020, 3:06 PM · For the Sinfonia Concertante, the violist absolutely has to be good if they don't intend to play it is in scordatura. The E-flat key is just as inconvenient for them as the violinist.
Edited: March 21, 2020, 6:12 PM · Lydia, I beg to differ.
I found Eb major the perfect key on viola. It might be related to hand size. After "discovering" this I mentioned it to a female violist in our chamber orchestra, a large woman (taller than me (these days)with large hands, who agreed.

In fact, it was after reading through the SC that I decided to switch to viola in orchestra and chamber music 5 years ago because if the trouble my ancient shaky right hand was having with violin bows.
I have since found unconventional bow holds that help me somewhat with that problem - and violin.

March 23, 2020, 8:53 AM · Viotti 22 is tough music! It is also singular - 15 years after the Mozart concerti, 15 years before the Paganini concerti and Beethoven concerto...it's a tremendous bridge between musical generations...and, as a boon, the Ysaye cadenza is brilliant.

Viotti 22 is considerably more challenging that Bruch 1 and Kabalevsky. Additionally, someone mentioned the Conus...also much more challenging than some of the earlier concerti. Conus is a good transitory concerto before Saint-Saens/Scottish Fantasy/Vieuxtemps. Have you learned the Sinding Suite? Mozart 1st concerto? Dvorak Romance?

March 23, 2020, 12:46 PM · I agree with Andrew Sords that the V22 is plenty hard. I'm working on it now. By the way, here is a gorgeous recording of it. Better than Perlman by a mile, that's my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1f7mK6USW8&t=1027s

March 23, 2020, 2:14 PM · Lola Bobesco...indeed let's never forget this jewel of a violinist...
Edited: March 23, 2020, 5:21 PM · For answering Andrew Victor, I didn't put Mendelssohn or Beethoven(harder that Mendelssohn)because my teacher told me that people usually play Bruch ans Saint-Saens(n°3)

For answering Andrew Sords, I didn't play Mozart 1 , Dvorak Romance and the sinding suite

Just, why do we give Viotti22 before Bruch?
Bruch 1(except 3 mov) is easier than Viotti 22

I also'd like to play Brahms 's double concerto, but it looks a way harder than Mendelssohn and the SE from Lalo(including 5th mov)

Beethoven's triple concerto is beautiful, but apparently, it's extremely hard for the cellist

I need to listen to the SC(Mozart) and, according to Lydia, to take a look at Deberiot 9

Thanks for your answers!

March 23, 2020, 5:28 PM · If you just got assigned Viotti 22, just practice that instead of worrying about Deberiot. Don't you have any etudes assigned?
March 23, 2020, 5:56 PM · Sorry, I didn't express myself very well:
I meant that I shall work on Viotti 22 and that I'll listen to the SC and Deberiot.Then,after, I'll work on DeBeriot(or Bruch)
And I have a lot of piece and etudes(assigned by my teacher)to play(scales+"colunms"+Mazas+Schubert sonatina and trio n2+Faure 's berceuse+Viotti 22+other technical things)I also play Meditation from Thais when I have time

Cheers!

March 23, 2020, 6:28 PM · DeBeriot No. 9 *is* an etude.
March 24, 2020, 6:19 AM · hi Guillermo, what are "columns"?
March 24, 2020, 7:02 AM · Schubert sonatina and Viotti 22? Definitely a mixed bag here.
March 24, 2020, 11:12 AM · While I agree Viotti 22 has its difficulties, I'm not sure I'd say it's more difficult than Bruch 1.

We study works by violinist-composers from the classical period because these give us 99% of all the skills we need to learn to play the violin as a solo instrument. They're etude-like because they include passages idiomatic to the instrument which we can also find concentrated in etudes from the same period. But they are not like playing a bunch of etudes back to back because those etude-like passages are part of a larger cohesive composition. A big part of the pedagogical progression is to get students to analyse and grasp larger and larger works as a whole.

We don't necessarily always want to go from easier to harder works, or smaller to larger. It all depends on the current needs of the student. But one big leap coincides with the evolution of music and instruments roughly around the turn of the 18th to 19th centuries, namely the need to play with greater volume, projection and with more sustained tone. That's why it makes more sense to go from Viotti to Bruch, than the other way around. Bruch contains the tricky passage work; plus, it requires the added technique necessary to project and sustain sound.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Viotti 22 is a prerequisite to Bruch 1, but it does have a lot of technique which is useful for and is expanded upon in the Bruch.

Edited: March 24, 2020, 2:58 PM · For answering Jean Dubuisson, columns are a left hand exercice on one position on one string where you repeats these fingerings:
1234,1243,1324,1342,1423,1432,2134,etc...4321
Example in third position on E:
abcd,abdc,acbd,acdb,adbc,adcb...dcba
After, you combine it with right hand difficulties (flying staccatos,2 legatos and 2 staccatos,2 staccatos and 2 legatos ,Staccato 2 legatos staccato,etc...)

Well, it's an exercise that's a bit boring, but it's effective

Cheers

March 24, 2020, 4:36 PM · ah I see! 24 possibilities ;-)
March 24, 2020, 5:09 PM · What do columns do, exactly?

The beautiful thing about scales, arpeggios, thirds, and octaves is that those patterns and the familiarity with the fingerboard and shifting will appear in all the major concerto literature.

March 24, 2020, 5:56 PM · I think it's pretty much just Schradieck exercises (I imagine Sevcik is pretty similar) - Mechanical exercises for developing dexterity and facility.
March 24, 2020, 8:34 PM · Christian thats exactly what I thought when seeing his description
March 24, 2020, 8:52 PM · Hopefully the audience applauds!
Edited: March 24, 2020, 9:52 PM · I saw on YouTube that Benjamin Bielman performed Viotti 22 with a pianist on a recital. All along I have heard from people on here that one should not use concertos with piano reductions on recitals, that it's somehow prohibited. So accordingly I left a scathing excoriation in the YouTube comments.

Of course he played it beautifully. (But not as well as Bobesco in my opinion.)

March 28, 2020, 1:08 PM · Paul, why shouldn't fiddlers play concerti with piano reductions? Heifetz, Kreisler, Rosand, Stern, and others did that more often than not...and it gives the Viotti 22 an airing on Ben's terms...rather than a conductor declining programming the work in favor of a standard.
March 28, 2020, 3:32 PM · Paul just checked the scathing excoriation...you *were* being cynical I hope?
March 28, 2020, 3:46 PM · I can't imagine the piano reduction of the orchestral part is a big step down for something like Viotti. It might even move people past their prejudice of the piece as a student concerto if they saw it more as a chamber work. It's a pretty nice piece.


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