In your opinion what important pieces are missing from the Advanced Suzuki repertoire?
Or better said, what pieces would you add to Suzuki Books 6-10? Just your own opinion :) Are all the popular ones, like Kreisler Preludium and Allegro and Vivaldi Seasons post-Suzuki pieces?
How about concertos? There is Vivaldi g minor in book 5 and the next concerto is Bach Nro 1 in Book 7 and Mozart A major and D Major which are Books 9 and 10. So are there other popular concertos Book 6-8 level? Im assuming the Mozart concertos are important and almost everyone plays them regardless of teaching method, but am I right in assuming that? So not many concertos there, wouldnt a player need more for competitions for example? Though I have no idea how long the advanced books take to go through but if it is about a year per book then there isnt even one concerto per year and it sounds too few.
How about Accolay, is it post-Suzuki? So are there some concertos or other pieces that are a must and great for performing that are not in the Suzuki repertoire?
Suzuki wanted to include many other pieces, he purportedly loved Kreisler, for example, but Kreisler and many other other romantic/contemporary pieces were still under copyright when he complied the books.
The Suzuki advanced repertoire across all in instruments lack more modern music and music from South America. This is due to the difficulty in obtaining proper copyrights, it's up to the teachers to find excellent supplemental repertoire as the students progress. Most active Suzuki teachers (those that are actually Suzuki teachers, not just using the books; those that attend the Suzuki conferences; those that are a part of the larger Suzuki community) have agreed on several pieces that would be excellent supplemental repertoire. Violin is not my instrument so I don't have any suggestions, but I'm sure we'll see some excellent suggestions in this feed.
For a long time people said, "Oh, there's no heavy-duty sautille piece in the Suzuki rep, like 'Elves Dance' by Jenkinson." Then the Suzuki folks wised up and included "The Bomb" (Perpetuo Mobile by Bohm) in the most recent edition -- it was not there before.
The list that Ingrid posted is a nicely concise summary of the usual intermediate warhorses. Generally, people won't learn all of those works, and teachers will pick and choose depending on the student's strengths and weaknesses. How much repertoire is done will typically be dependent on how much polish the teacher demands.
I would also love to see more Latin American music for intermediate violinists. Please suggest options!
When Lydia says most teachers stop around Book 6, I think that's true but in practice what it often means it that you buy Book 7 anyway just to have it in case there are pieces you need for a Suzuki summer camp, and the Bach A Minor is in there along with maybe a couple of other useful things (the Corelli Allegro is a useful third-and-fourth-finger study). You only buy Book 8 if you really really love the Eccles and the Veracini -- "going for baroque" as they say. People don't buy Books 9 and 10 unless they're truly hardcore Suzuki nuts because those are just whole Mozart concertos and if you ask your student to play a concerto from a Suzuki edition you'll be ostracized from the community because "everyone knows" they have no redeeming value whatsoever (even if they do).
Just to say that Vols 9 & 10 (Mozart concertos 4 & 5) are based on the Joachim editions, with his cadenzas. The fingerings are very "19th century" (not enough even-numbered positions etc.)
Right, thanks, got the picture :)
Just to add where would you put Infat and Boy Paganiis in terms of Suzuki-books?
My teacher took me to book 6, then we moved onto concerto repertoire and lots and lots of Etudes. With the occasional Spanish influenced piece thrown in. I was also in a outhitting orchestra, so much of my lesson time was covered by orchestral work. And of course, chamber and quartet music!
I move on from the Suzuki books after Book 4, but I'm not a trained Suzuki teacher nor do I present myself as such--I use the first four books as repertoire and many (but not all) of the pedagogical ideas on the rare occasions when I teach a beginner.
We ought to clarify: the Suzuki Method is a philosophy of teaching, and not really about what pieces are published in the books. While difficult, it is possible for someone to teach the fundamentals of the philosophy using completely different repertoire, which is how the philosophy has been adapted to other instruments besides the violin. Just because someone uses music other than the published books does not mean they have abandoned the method itself!
There's really good pieces in Book 6. I think it's one of the best books.
I fit Anthony's definition of "Suzuki teacher" and basically Ingrid/Paul/Lydia/Susan's comments are consistent with my experience. I only disagree that it's "best not to play Suzuki after book 5" because, well, go with your teacher's guidance (or the guidance of the next teacher). What's critical is "the teacher, not the method" or "the teacher, not the book".
Our daughter went off Suzuki after Book 4. Her teacher at the time was a believer of powering through the repertoire so she went on to play crazy hard pieces.
My kids played Infant Paganini around end of Book 4 or early Book 5 and Boy Paganini around end of Book 5.
Several things generally happen by the book 6 level.
"Her teacher is focusing on repertoire pieces that demand 'cleanliness.'"
"She no longer has any professional aspirations because she cannot stand the idea of playing something she hates for a paycheck."
I dunno. At age nine I was pretty certain that I would never want a job where someone else could tell me what to do and I had to do things that I didn't want to do. :-)
Good replies. Especially nice to read about Kikis daughter (9). But 2-3 hours per day feels a lot at least now (she is 6 and home from pre-school at 3 pm and to bed at 7.30 pm. We practise 45 minutes 6 times a week. She also swims and I teach her English every day, both of which are really important things. And she has to have free time to play outside with her friends.
Vivaldi G minor is certainly a workable competition concerto -- indeed, I won a local competition with it when I was a kid.
> "There is only 1 competition here and its once in 2 years, so one has to plan carefully if she wants to take part the next time too."
Book 5 at age 6 is especially amazing if you're only practicing 45 minutes a day. Assuming that book 5 is played at P2+ quality (to use the parlance from the other thread).
Is AmericanProtege legit? So many you find online nationally (esp. if Carnegie Hall is mentioned) seem like the main focus is $$$. Multiple first places, additional fees for award performances, etc..
Practicing 45 minutes a day at age 6 is amazing just by itself.
I think many of those organizations are offering a product for sale, and judging by the numbers of buyers, they're quite popular.
American Protege is definitely a pay-for-play competition. If I remember correctly, they charge you $100 a MINUTE if you want to perform longer than the handful of minutes they allot to you. It's a minimum of $600 to participate, and that doesn't even count accompanist, travel, and recording.
Maria, I don't know how logistical this would be, but have you thought about having your young daughter perform more in the community? Community performances aren't easy to organize, though. Have you had a discussion with her teacher about performing opportunities?
Susan, for impressing people who don't know any better, it works very well. (Ditto the orchestras that perform there, like the "Honors Performance Series" mentioned in a now-deleted thread.) Parents in this area do it to bolster applications for private schools, scholarships etc.
"We ought to clarify: the Suzuki Method is a philosophy of teaching, and not really about what pieces are published in the books."
I think that the Suzuki philosophy, method. and repertoire are all distinct things, but the norm is that those three things go together. Importantly though, Suzuki was clear that his published pedagogical material is not intended to be used exclusively, nor was it intended to be a complete course of instruction. You will find Suzuki programs where the kids are playing, at pretty young ages, material post-book-10, but still theoretically within the structure of the program, in that they still receive group lessons, participate in play-ins, etc.
1-2 good teachers from a pre-cons school can provide you private lessons. Just ask them for the "preparation" to get in the program in 2years.
Thanks again for the replies, it si so interesting to read your views as I have no parents to talk to. Now she is not a prodigy, I can feel it, she is talented but not a prodigy. There are a couple of prodigies I have come accross in my country and my girl certainly is not as talented.
I believe that some people are looking at those low profile competitions the wrong way.
At last year's Suzuki conference, Rachel Barton Pine presented on Baroque performance and her daughter was part of the demonstration. I don't remember the details but for sure her violin (1/8 or 1/4 size) was not in Baroque tuning.
I dunno--the correlation between family wealth and "competitive" string and piano playing seems pretty tight--today even more so than some 30-40 years ago when my peers were competing. I'd wager winning at American Protege is actually cheaper than achieving a win at a "real" national (U.S.) competition. Lessons, rehearsals, collaborative pianists, summer camps, master classes, audition tapes, instruments--all need to be chosen very carefully for the latter. I've probably missed some expenses. The cheap way is just to enter American Protege with whatever you've got and pay 100 bucks an extra minute.
" I believe that some people are looking at those low profile competitions the wrong way.
@Maria Sorry for shifting the topic earlier. It seems that you are thinking about relatively easy concertos that can be used for local competitions. You can find Jubin's graded repertoire and various members' concerto sequence from this forum:
Marry Ellen wrote
I believe, at age of 6, parents can and should control and adjust the child's development pathway.
Our daughter certainly had some help from grownups reaching that conclusion but it wasn't from us!
> But how can one separate the two?
I see the same thing in Open University students: there is a problem letting go of the apron strings.
I'm not sure I buy into this fundamental divide between "aural/intuitive" and "analytical" learning.
I completely agree with Gene.
Well, I have to say that I have done a lot of other things in home practise with my daughter, in addition to the things that the teacher has advised. Maybe some one will remember that I was the one who taught the so called perfect pitch to my girl. I asked a lot here and then read a lot and then devised my own way of teaching the pitches to her and it did work. She has a perfect pitch now (not an inborn absolute pitch but a very usable sense of pitches). She also started reading the music at the age of 4 as she has a somewhat bad memory. Wrote a whole lot of exercises for her back then in addition to doing the ”I can read music”-book. We have done also a whole lot of other excercises with both hands that I just have figured. Plus she has done a lot of exercises she has herself figured out, just by fiddling with her violin.
Lydia, what is Galamian approach and what is an Ayer approach?
As has been previously noted in this thread, Suzuki never intended his repertoire books to be the only pedagogical material used. He also wrote etude books but he expected that students would also learn scales, exercises and etudes as their teachers saw fit.
The Galamian style is the modern American approach to technique. That's the spread-fingered bow hold, sound production that tends to emphasize being very near the bridge, thumb placed across from the index finger on the left hand.
However, the discussion was about the future development of a talented child, who completes the Suzuki program at age of 7, and is too young to start at the conservatorium. And there are several scenarios:
It’s interesting you mention the differences between the different schools of violin playing. Last year when I started studying violin performance with my professor, she changed a lot of how I held everything and a lot of the stuff I was taught by my other teachers. It was interesting to see the differences.
K CH, actually no my girl will not finish all ten Suzuki books at the age of 7. Far from it. She is now in Book 5 and is 6 years. Given the pieces in book 6 and above I dont think think them being the best pieces to play so I was asking for recommendations for what is left out from Book 6 and above. So that I could ask her teacher later on for supplements, I would think that my girl would be in book 7 when she turns 8, but as I dont play violin much myself it is hard to say how things go. And it depends also what else is she doing, as now she is not progressing with the Suzuki book because she is training for her first competition and after that for the London Suzuki Gala. She allready plays with an orchestra in her music school.
I will note that in the US, most Suzuki teachers hold either a degree in performance or a degree in music education, and then pursue Suzuki training. (There is "long-term" training that's typically embedded in an MM program as well, in which Suzuki training is done as part of a student's coursework, but this is very rare.)
Thanks Lydia for the clarification. Yes it is probably true everywhere that not everyone who graduates plays very well. And it is really hard to know if someone plays well or excellent if one is not a violinist of some standard. One only has to trust gut feeling and being in a peripheria one also has limited choices. And then there are other considerations. Not everyone is a good teacher however well they play.
Yesterday I bought the Baerenreiter Bach double, partly because I don't like Suzuki's presentation and partly because Suzuki only has the first movement. And so a natural way to go is to find anything you like in Suzuki and get a complete edition of it (unsimplified if Suzuki has simplified it) and learn the missing movements. After that anything you like.
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