Arpeggios(jumping and ricochet)

Edited: November 6, 2019, 2:59 PM · Hello,
I'm secretly preparing for Mendelssohn so I can play it in 1 year(or 2)
So i'm making Octaves , breaking them etc...playing pieces and scales in G major or in E minor etc...
I've noticed in the piece that there is ricochet and I don't know how to play them.
I arrived to play E,G,B,E (cadenza passage ) but I can't play E,B,G,E with the ricochet

Can you help me?

Replies (13)

November 6, 2019, 4:01 PM · According to Perlman, you just let your bow "kind of bounce".
November 6, 2019, 4:15 PM · I got instructions just like these for arpeggio from more than one violin teacher. No wonder I never succeeded I guess...
November 6, 2019, 4:29 PM · Four-string saltando should require next to no effort. I start the bow with a little momentum on the G-string with a flick of my fingers, a little like a colle' release but with the fingers loose, and just do a smooth four-string crossing as if I were playing legato, and the bow bounces on its own.
Edited: November 7, 2019, 7:43 AM · Not every bow will do it - but if your bow can, you just move your right hand up and down with the right part of the bow starting on the G string and the bow does the rest.

But if you can find a video of Menuhin doing it many years ago you will see that he really powered through it using quite a lot of bow and no ricochet at all.

Edited: November 6, 2019, 8:10 PM · What you need to do is to try to remember way back into your childhood when you were first learning sautille so that you could play "Elves Dance" by Jenkinson and "Perpetuo Mobile" by Bohm. Remember? There was some combination of making it happen and letting it happen. Well it's like that except harder because it involves all four strings and a more delicate sense of the timing of the bounces. But even though I have never learned this technique I would assume that the plan for learning it is the same -- just be patient and sensitive to how things feel and how they sound, so that you can determine what helps and make small adjustments toward the intended goal. Like sautille, nobody can really break it down for you into individual concrete steps.
November 6, 2019, 9:07 PM · If you aren't ready for this stroke, you are going to spend a lot of time spinning your wheels on it. Why not wait until you're really ready for Mendelssohn, at which point the stroke is likely to be very much easier to learn?
November 6, 2019, 11:12 PM · Violinmasterclass has some videos about it. While they are short you may find good info and advice if you care enough to think about and feel the concepts behind the techniques.
Edited: November 7, 2019, 7:02 AM · Sibelius's En Saga, which we're performing in a couple of weeks time, opens with rapid up-and-down arpeggiated 4-string chords in 16th notes extending over several pages, but the problem in this case lies more in the fingering and the necessary hand-shape for each chord. I give you as a typical example, 14 measures of (starting on the G-string) A-F#-D#-C# (on the E).

P.S. I've been waiting weeks for an opportunity to have this particular moan on behalf of my section!

November 7, 2019, 9:02 AM · Hehe. Secrelty preparing a piece you're maybe (or totally) not really ready for is sort of a rite of passage among high school students I knew. There are upsides and downsides to this - I imagine it gives the teachers fits and you can burn in all kinds of bad habits if you do it too much - but I also think it marks when a student gets really excited about the violin. Some pieces may work a bit better for this sort of thing than others...some teach you how to work your way through their challenges, some just bludgeon you. I think the first movement of the Mendelson is neutral to harmless in this category. (I tried to secretly prepare Tchaik #3 when I was a teenager...I do not recommend this approach, heh.) It might help to show your playing to someone you trust who plays well but isn't your main teacher, explaining that you're just woodshedding and asking for tips. I wish I had done that. 43-year old me could have saved 15-year-old me years of work with a few totally nonobvious (at the time) tips.

For the specific question, I agree with Andrew Victor, Menuhin's recordings (visible on the Art of hte Violin DVD and doubtless youtube) show that it is perfectly musically viable to just not do bounce here. I also recommend practicing it this way for a good while first even if you do want bounce.

When you want to transition to bounce, just start it a tiny bit above the bow and make the same motion. Most people use too much bow height (me too).

Now that said, you may actually be asking a much more specific question. The notes you listed suggest that you're looking at the bit about two lines before the end of the arpegios. If you can bounce _everything else but not that_, do you realize that it is meant to be played in fifth position? I.e. it is across all four strings just like the previous page - fingered 1-1-2-3 then 1-2-3-3 on g-d-a-e, just higher. If you were trying to start it on the D string, it would be infinitely harder to bounce than the previous page. I play the passage before it in first position (so the B with a 2 on the G), then go from 2 to 1 a whole step above the pitch of the open D. Some folks would probably go to second position first and shift 1-1.

If you are already doing this, you might also try doing the bounce for the last 2 lines closer to the tip. Playing in higher positions tends to require smaller bow motions and finger control.

November 7, 2019, 9:59 AM · Guillermo, despite you not seeming to have your own best interests in mind and despite my hunch that you don't actually pay any attention to any of the responses to any of your posts, you don't need to worry about what your left hand is doing yet - The stroke is going to be the same in your right hand regardless of the notes, with you just needing to have the chord set in your left hand.

You need to work the bowing out slowly on open strings with legato, so that you have a very even motion from the movement of your elbow and so that you have a very even sound across the strings. When you have that very comfortable, then stop, and just work on that for 5x longer than you intend, and when you have an efficient motion for changing strings in your right hand, you can speed it up and at a certain speed, with a little flick to get you started, your bow should start to jump naturally.

Orrrrrrrr, you could stop wasting your own time and work on other things that are more relevant to actually playing.

November 7, 2019, 10:40 AM · Oh,
Forgot to say that I'll ask m'y teacher how to do that bowling(so I can avoid bad habits)
November 7, 2019, 1:58 PM · Christian,
There is a confusion
I meant to begin to work it and not to play it(gonna play Viotti, Kreisler and Solo Bach,finishing Mozart 3 before)
November 7, 2019, 2:50 PM · Indeed Guillermo, there IS a confusion.

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