European or german violin
These 2 violins are the same price $2200.
Not sure out of the 2 which one I should get?
maybe the pegs and the chinrest are made in germany, with german labor law and the amount of hours a experienced luthier would take to make a violin highly doubt its made in germany.
Just go ahead and get them both.
I just sold a really nice labeled German violin from 1912 for $1500, sure it is much better, those have to be Chinese, no way they could be made in Germany with German labour rates.
I've no idea about the Klier or Staufer instruments. But in general, it's ridiculous nonsense that a violin at this price level could not be manufactured in Germany. AUD2200 are worth €1200, which usually represents not the very basic entry level of instruments made in Germany, but already one or two steps above and already offers decent enough tonal quality for the first year(s).
I heard Paesoldt stopped making violins in Germany in the 1990's.
"made in the European tradition" doesn't mean "made in Europe". The other is out of stock and perhaps they only had one that was 100 years old? "Made in Germany" may mean "assembled in Germany". Would they export wood to China, have them carve the bits there, then return them to Germany? Don't they have vast amounts of wood in China? No idea.
some people are really gullible about Made in Germany, to be labeled Made in Germany legally, a Chinese or Romanian violin only has to have minimal set up work done in Germany, that's what so many of these "German" violins actually are.
same with Made in France
This subject, Violin "Made in Germany," came up in this forum a few years ago. A contributor wrote that under German law, manufacturers are allowed to label their violin "Made in Germany" by investing a required number of hours of labor. In this way, a violin can be assembled in Germany from Chinese parts, and be legally labelled "Made in Germany." If I find the original post, I will copy it here.
Bud, I don't think so, but as usual I may be wrong. But it should be possible to make profit with violins completely made in Germany around 1k.
There are some "makers" in just about every part of the world (including Cremona) making use of pre-carved Chinese parts, and sometimes even complete instruments.
David, you're certainly right, and I do know about this practice. Without wishing to be insultive against Chinese people, this is simply fraud, if not legally, but morally.
Just to make sure we put the blame where it should really be; the Chinese violin scroll (or whatever violin part) makers are not the ones committing fraud, but rather the people/makers who utilizes them and claim the violin part as their own making.
Nuuska - how do you figure that it's the Chinese who are committing the fraud, not the "makers" who are profiting from their products? The practice has been going on for a century and more. Before the Chinese it was German factory violins that were being imported in the white, before them French. I suspect I'll be seeing one or two at auction viewings today, boasting the names of known and unknown English makers, varnished and self-labelled by the makers themselves.
Define "made" bearing in mind expressions such as "the army made me".
I wrote a very long answer that seems to have gotten lost (Sorry if it isn't and this is repetition).
Steve (and everybody else) - I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I didn't guess this could be misunderstood.
@nuuska, im curious, whos responsible for the fraud in this case. makers buying the scrolls and labeling it as their own or the people making the scrolls.
Anyone can produce and sell whatever he likes, if theres a market. Thats okay. Using parts made by someone else like an apprentice is okay, as long as this is clearly communicated, either as a workshop violin or like "this is the way my instruments are built". Buying parts or even readily assembled violins and add a label is okay as long this is declared, or at least as long as one doesn't claim this to be a "master instrument made by one single experienced maker". It's just not okay if someone is not telling the truth. This is called a lie. And if someone is lying out of a financial motivation, then I'd say that's fraud?
Germany is in Europe, no? Or did I miss the Germexit?
nuuska, it is fraud i agree with you, but i'm asking is who is the fraud, the scroll maker or the guy purchasing the scroll and saying its his.
The scroll / plates maker is clear about that it was him / his company who made these parts. I cannot see fraud there. Theyre selling to anyone willing to buy, and for whatever purpose - and be it a cryptic art "installation" including dozens of these, as gas happened here a couple of years ago. (Noone understood, but still it was there...) And if they would go to customers who might say "well, I'm just someone who's gluing parts together" everything would be okay. But since things don't happen like this...
To clarify a clear statement - the fraudster is "the guy purchasing the scroll and saying its his".
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