Fastest in the world Schumman Scherzo?

Edited: July 3, 2019, 3:58 AM · This piece, that i didn't know before, pissed me Very much;)):
It isn't hard technically, but very annoying to play it fast as Schumman wanted - in 144 in good level. Because of all the switches of strings.

I worked on it a lot and eventually managed to play it in 160, in a pretty decent level in my view,
It might be the fastest in the world version of it - what do you think?

Replies (285)

Edited: July 2, 2019, 4:10 PM · Mr Krakovich, I am truly impressed. That was a most outstanding performance. I have never seen anything quite like that.
July 2, 2019, 4:15 PM · It would be extremely hard to know what Schubert wanted, seeing as he had been dead for 18 years when this symphony was composed.
July 2, 2019, 4:56 PM · I kind of feel like you need to use a less sticky rosin.
July 2, 2019, 5:06 PM · Your camera is wrecking your intonation.
July 2, 2019, 7:17 PM · Not the least bit musical..... perhaps a different vocation that requires dexterity but not insight?
Edited: July 2, 2019, 7:37 PM · That's not so much the Scherzo as an impressionistic form of it. In many cases you're playing the wrong notes. You're also immensely out of tune, to the point where in some cases it's hard to tell whether you're playing the wrong note rather than just severely missing the correct note. Most professionals would be embarrassed to put up a video like that.

No orchestra will take "but I can slop through it really fast!" over perfect accuracy as a more moderate tempo, since the audition committee is well aware that perfection at a slower (but still fast) tempo is far harder to achieve than fast slop.

Edited: July 2, 2019, 7:45 PM · Greatest in the world. Flawless performance! I would be honored to be your stand partner and the small (very small!) intonation slips and the inability to synchronize your right and left hand would not get annoying at all! Please next post a video of Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto "Canzonetta" Fastest in the World! I know the mute will be bad for the flawless sound but you have to respect the dictator composer style!
Edited: July 2, 2019, 9:54 PM · why not just write Shman?
It's much faster.
Edited: July 2, 2019, 10:20 PM · I agree with Erik. You might want to consider using a less sticky rosin so that it will sound cleaner at that fast tempo. Stickier rosin is going to make it sound sloppy when you're trying to play faster passages. Less stickier rosin also help your bow achieve a better sautillé.

Also, I wouldn't say it's immensely out of tune, but there are parts where there are notes where you were in 3rd position and it was flat because your hand didn't make it in time. Also there was a note that I think was supposed to be an e according to the key, but was between e and e flat. As in not exactly e, but too sharp to be e flat. Bottom line it was out of tune, but for the most part it wasn't too bad.

July 2, 2019, 11:02 PM · The difference between the F and F# needs to be clear, ditto E and Eb, and all the other accidentals. When that difference isn't clear, it's either a wrong note or an intonation problem. To some extent, this excerpt tests the ability for a player to learn a passage with full attention to detail (all the correct notes, dynamics, accents, etc.) and not just technical coordination between left and right hands.
July 2, 2019, 11:24 PM · It was horrifically out of tune.
July 2, 2019, 11:36 PM · "THE RULES TO BECOME WORLD'S FASTEST VIOLINIST:

The performance needs to be recordedThe performance needs to be verified by independent music experts - not known by me.The performance needs to be "Mostly in tune, mostly in time"The performance needs to include the entire pieceThe performance needs to still be recognisable as being The Flight Of The Bumblebee."

https://www.vovdylan.com/the_worlds_fastest_violinistgold

Edited: July 3, 2019, 1:48 AM · "Mostly in tune, mostly in time"? That shouldn't be the case for someone going for a world record for fastest violinist. If you aren't in tune then how can the performance be recognizable at such a tempo? Likewise, if it's not completely in time, are you truly the fastest violinist? Or are you the sloppiest violinist?

Side note: I wouldn't take advice from the likes of Vov Dylan. The man can't play worth a damn. His attempt was literally him sliding all around the fingerboard whilst having a stroke in his right hand. He plays so many wrong notes that the piece is unrecognizable. He wasn't mostly in tune or mostly in time. And you can't say it included the entire piece because he was spazzing so much that he skipped considerable amounts of the piece.

A real attempt would have been the attempt made by David Garrett.

July 3, 2019, 1:57 AM · Thank you. Next!
July 3, 2019, 2:22 AM · Is it really necessary to be so acerbic? I know he keeps saying 'fastest' in the world and such things, but I still think characterizing it as horrifically out of tune is overly harsh. I mean, it COULD be much more out of tune, no? What would the adjective be then? At such a tempo an amateur's intonation will usually suffer.
Edited: July 3, 2019, 2:39 AM · David, we are back to square one!
So I shall repeat my earliest posts in your first, Paganini No24 thread:
- I should like to play as fast as you, but without proper intonation and decent tone, I should be too embarrassed to put this out on YouTube;
- Speed without beauty is worse than silence.

What you have here is a remarkable comic stunt, nothing whatever to do with the professional playing that you aspire to.

Edited: July 3, 2019, 2:56 AM · You are killing the messenger here:

I personally think that if you want it played well, in "classical level", it should be in 120 or even less - that was my previous thread here about.
https://www.violinist.com/discussion/thread.cfm?page=3107

But if Schumman wanted 144, he probably knew he is going to compromise on something here.
And didn't set the rules for "the fastest in the world violinist".
And anyway - if i already learned it and i can play it faster in the fastest speed , why not to record it?

I will probably do another version soon with real stunt!;)) I'm have an idea to do something new as a stunt.

July 3, 2019, 3:17 AM · The fastest violinist record is no longer supported by Guinness World Records, they tweeted about it and left comments under a YouTube video of David Garret regarding this.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/the-application-process/reasons-applications-are-rejected

“Fastest musician (Fastest violin player, piano player, etc.): after conducting a full and thorough review Guinness World Records has concluded that we are unfortunately unable to continue monitoring these categories. It has become impossible to judge the quality of the renditions, even when slowed down. ” (from the web page)

July 3, 2019, 3:22 AM · If you go on YouTube, you can even find students and amateurs playing the excerpt in the 126-132 range, not necessarily with the level of perfection needed in a professional audition, but certainly in good enough quality for orchestral performance and quite a bit better than your playing at 120.

Top-tier community orchestras can give a creditable performance at 132-138 -- perhaps it's not being played at professional audition level, but each of 10-12 people in the first violin section, all but one or two of whom are unpaid amateurs, will be playing it in tune and in time, reasonably cleanly, and reasonably musically. Never mind professionals, I'm still not sure you realize how many serious and highly competent amateurs there are.

July 3, 2019, 3:36 AM · In contrast to all you snarks I like to believe the best about a person; David is (still) taking the piss
July 3, 2019, 3:38 AM · What´s with the obsession of speed all the time, fleeing from something?
Sacrificing all aspects of what music should be about in the name of rushing through some notes will never get you the praise you are so desperately craving for. No matter how often you try. Just deal with it already.
Edited: July 3, 2019, 3:43 AM · David fischer

I'm telling you the truth now - i didn't try to Break the speed here - in this case it is the speed that i generally play it, i have 3 recordings in a row in this speed.
I saw that it is the fastest just after i recorded it and i felt it is in good musical level for such speed.
I'm surprised that people here think it is very out of tune.

Edited: July 3, 2019, 4:37 AM · @mary dixon

I read it too.
They probably got too many applications of people that tried to break the record.

I suggested before to make "Violinists/other instruments Olympics" with different categories-
Including things like "fastest on a bike" (the distance).

Edited: July 3, 2019, 4:53 AM · "I'm surprised that people here think it is very out of tune."
After eight long threads, I think we have understood that.
It is exasperating - but so sad.
July 3, 2019, 5:01 AM · No, they didn't get too many applications. What they got was complaints that the people breaking the records were not actually playing the piece. Vov Dylan literally skipped almost half of the notes, and glissando-ed through a bunch more.
Edited: July 3, 2019, 5:22 AM · Andrew Hsieh

I think that it is possible to measure in slow motion if someone played all the notes.
But about things like intonation i agree that it is more "subjective" feeling, that's why things like that should be judged by professional violinists team, and the conclusion probably will be always "arguable".
That's why something like that probably more suitable to competition.

July 3, 2019, 5:53 AM · Inventive use of microtones
July 3, 2019, 8:02 AM · Urban, the point of a piece like that is that the individual notes trace out the harmony. If there isn't sufficient clarity for the listener to grasp the harmony, then that's not a small problem, it's quite serious. Also, in other threads this individual has claimed that he intends to use this piece to audition for professional orchestras and even implied that he wanted the advice of those qualified to help him meet that goal. So if he is being judged harshly against a difficult standard, he's only brought that on himself.
July 3, 2019, 9:20 AM · Thank you, Paul Deck!

In the other Schumann Scherzo thread, I outlined exactly how I prepared this piece for a professional audition, a process which took a couple of months but which culminated in my being able to perform this piece clearly and extremely well in tune at 144.

The OP doesn't have the patience--or perhaps the ears, I can't judge--to do the work.

By professional audition standards, the OP's performance was indeed dreadfully out of tune--and since that's what he claims he is planning to do, that is the standard by which I judged. Nobody playing at the OP's standard is going to advance past the first round at any orchestral audition, even the most humble freeway philharmonic.

I'm not being cruel, or harsh. I'm being honest.

July 3, 2019, 9:27 AM · Yup.
July 3, 2019, 10:56 AM · There also has to be the recognition that this Scherzo is a thing of beauty. The phrases have to be shaped, and there has to be an awareness of how this part fits into the orchestra as a whole. The descending two-note slurs pick up the line from a solo flute, for instance, and the feel of the beat and the articulation need to be done accordingly. But that comes after correct pitches, accurate intonation, and ensuring that a percussive sound to the stroke is avoided throughout the whole thing.
July 3, 2019, 1:03 PM · Speed is no excuse for poor quality, nor a substitute for making music.
July 3, 2019, 1:30 PM · Vov Dylan! LOL. I always suspected that Bob Dylan was always really just doing performance art, so David, you are at a disadvantage if you want to compare your performance art to the performance art of a Nobel Prize winner who has been plying his craft for decades. If you can crack the code, though, like Vov has, there are probably a lot of dollarydoos to be made.
July 3, 2019, 2:05 PM · My personal problem with this speed is that it is a "Gamble" every time to play it like that,
But i feel the same "Gamble" in every speed that above 120 and even less.

Can you tell me that the people that play it "well" in 144, can play it every time "for sure" or with high probability that they will play it well?

July 3, 2019, 2:09 PM · It might be that Schumann knew that it will not be perfect in 144 and still took the risk with 144 because he wanted the fast effect?
July 3, 2019, 2:31 PM · Oh my god the Vov Dylan video. I was waiting for it to surface somewhere.

@Christian

I find it unlikely that Vov Dylan has cracked the dollarydoo code. For starters, he was a nobody until TwoSet started yanking his chain, plus, his most played piece on Spotify has a whopping 7000 plays.

To dive deeper, since I have nothing better to do at work, he is still advertising wedding gigs on his website (for comparisons, I have played weddings before) and doesn't have a single piece of classical repertoire mentioned anywhere.

Also, the only piece he has advertised as wedding music is Canon in D. LOL!

https://www.vovdylan.com/repertoirepurple

July 3, 2019, 2:34 PM · It might be more common to have this at 138 than at 144 in performance, if you listen to recording. I suspect that is usually done as a musical choice more than a technical one though. Violinists playing it well (see many YouTube videos) can nail it every time. The whole reason that we do slow deliberate practice is to ensure that fast is 100% reliable, even under the stressful conditions of an audition. That's the expectation of professionals.
July 3, 2019, 2:34 PM · Yes, but is the uncushioned honesty out of pure frustration, or a feeling that being more direct will be taken to heart more? Just ignore me perhaps - I may be too much of a bleeding heart in some cases.

Anyway, David, here's a (to my ears) good performance of this excerpt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsRRxUlFYNQ
What do you think? It does seem more comprehensible (harmony-wise) then what you posted. Perhaps you should think of it on a more macro-scale as Paul Deck indicated? That is, analysing what kind of harmony you're supposed to bring out.

Not that I'm at a stage where a could give any sort of convincing performance of this - especially not at that speed. I think there's actually a lot to be said about your dexterity, so perhaps you should harness it at much slower tempos where it will give you freedom to work at the intonation.

July 3, 2019, 2:58 PM · James, I guess it's almost too good to make money. Where there's a nagging part of me that thinks that there's a small chance that if I closed my eyes and listened to a Lola Astanova video, I might find it suprisingly credible, even if my overwhelming concern is really for the health of her lumbar spine with her piano bench so far away from the piano, Vov Dylan, hilariously impossible-to-make-up name and all, seems to me to be beyond satire, like making fun of a puppy for trying to run for President.

I guess what I'm trying to say is "God bless Vov Dylan and God bless 'Straya! and God bless 'Merica". I can only hope that he plays the world's fastest Canon in D, which I think would be a gift to us all.

July 3, 2019, 3:04 PM · Please answer honestly, i really don't know:
If we will take an orcheatra that plays the Scherzo and ask every violinist to play it solo, he will play it well in 144?
Or even 136?
As soloist?

I personally can't see even a top soloist dares to play it in 144 on big stage live. Because it is so risky in such speed.

July 3, 2019, 3:07 PM · I also doubt that any soloist dares to play the Schumann Scherzo on the big stage. That's a shot across the bow, you "so-called" professionals, so ball's in your court Midori!
Edited: July 3, 2019, 3:12 PM · From experience in previous threads, If it's not direct (and even if it's direct) David will ignore it. People asking for feedback in this forum generally get a degree of gentleness appropriate their ambitions. Because David is claiming to be playing at a professional level and presents himself as being exceptional, he gets feedback accordingly.

As to David's question, given that almost everyone who wins a professional job has to play the Scherzo well, at tempo, by themselves under the highly pressured situation of an audition, yes, you can expect that they can indeed do it by themselves. YouTube is full of videos of pros demonstrating this excerpt.

This is not a passage that is inherently risky -- i.e. the kind of passage where you are doing things that are by their nature unreliable. This is just a passage that needs to be drilled until it's not risky -- where the hands are properly choreographed and have been taught to be absolutely precise.

Edited: July 3, 2019, 3:12 PM · It isn't risky at 144 if you have done the work properly to get it there. I knew I was going to nail it at the audition and I did. Yes, every member of the violin section of a full-time professional orchestra can reliably play it well up to tempo, every time.

And what Lydia said just above.

July 3, 2019, 3:25 PM · @Lydia Leong

There's a big difference between live performance and recording as soloist -
In live performance you can't make mistakes and try 2,3,4 times. Therefore you can't take risks. And That means you will play it slowly probably:

I am very "Bold" with the speeds for example and make "fastest in the world" versions because it is a recording.

July 3, 2019, 3:29 PM · In an audition you have to play flawlessly AND you must play it at tempo. My point is that very nearly all professional symphony players have passed that particular gauntlet, playing it perfectly at the required speed solo during their live audition before the panel.
July 3, 2019, 3:42 PM · DK, this "gamble" issue really underscores your entire problem: Your technique isn't good enough to ensure a smooth ride through that piece in your practice room, not to mention when you're nervous in front of an examining board. In live performances, the reason pros don't need two, three, or four "takes" is because they've got to the point where they're nailing it every time. That's why your teacher told you to practice passages until you can do them 10 times in a row perfectly. Because any lower standard means a "gamble". If you ever get the feeling that the Sibelius Concerto is easy for a top soloist, well, it's because, in fact, it's actually easy for them -- easier than you or I would find Haydn or Seitz.
Edited: July 3, 2019, 3:47 PM · Urban, I quite understand your discomfort, but this is the eighth or ninth long thread where David tries every possible excuse for not playing well enough..except that of poor practicing. He has treated us as clowns, liars, dictators, snobs, and in a suppressed thread, pseudo-racists. We have been extremely patient!
July 3, 2019, 3:52 PM · I hate to be rude, and I’m saying this as a failed musician myself, but this is pure garbage violin playing. You don’t have a prayer of becoming a pro. Find something else to occupy your time.
July 3, 2019, 5:40 PM · Maybe just pointing out the obvious: if it were truly a gamble for professional-level players, it would not be a common audition excerpt. Orchestras are looking to hire the best players. It is not in their interest to deliberately make auditions a crapshoot.
July 3, 2019, 5:54 PM · Looking forward to "fastest in the world" on Pachelbels Canon.
July 3, 2019, 10:14 PM · You think this is hard, give the "Death of Tybalt" excerpt a shot.
July 3, 2019, 10:28 PM · Andrew Hsieh

There's a difference between the level of knowing to play something in orcheatra or even in audition and to play it solo in live performance -
I don't think that top soloist will dare to play it in 144 live. I think it is Too risky to make a big mistake.
Maybe I'm wrong. But it seems too fast for me.

Edited: July 3, 2019, 10:36 PM · The biggest problem to play fast the Scherzo is that you can make a mistake - in live performance as soloist it will look horrible, in orcheatra you probably can "catch the bus" with minor mistake.
That's maybe why you can play it faster in orchestra.
July 3, 2019, 10:44 PM · That's the "team spirit" David.... hope you stand mate is understanding.
July 3, 2019, 10:49 PM · @David

You have hit the nail on the head here. The #1 quality I personally look for in a desk partner is someone who can't play the part and relies on the rest of the orchestra to cover up the mistake.

July 3, 2019, 11:23 PM · Do that in a professional orchestra and expect not to get invited back / get tenure. People fake sometimes but this isn't one of the places it's acceptable. Muck it up and you're destroying the section sound.
Edited: July 4, 2019, 4:10 PM · Just curious, since this causes continuous itches... Is "schumman" well-known in Israel? I've never heard of him. And, were Robert "Schumann" and Franz "Schubert" the same person?

Seriously, folks - we're getting trolled. Maybe part of some kind of comedy show, who knows. But definitely not a real person.

July 3, 2019, 11:44 PM · I am planning to apply for a chair in quantum physics at a university next month. Do you think it's necessary to know about the theories from folks like hyssenborger or ehnstone?
July 4, 2019, 12:02 AM · "Seriously, folks - we're getting trolled. Maybe part of some kind of comedy show, who knows. But definitely not a real person."

It's unbelievable folks fall for this every time. Here's another lengthy topic with people responding all the time to a completely unserious person who thinks violin playing is a circus act.

Every online group has one or two of these attention seeking trolls, it's inevitable. Even the bad spelling is part of it.

July 4, 2019, 12:27 AM · David K certainly seems to be a real person, even if he's a provocateur. There's some interesting and useful stuff coming out of the threads here and there, anyway, since most people here tend to be sincere and helpful even if the person in question is coated in teflon anti-clue repellent.
July 4, 2019, 12:55 AM · sorry, Lydia, I disagree.
He's playing you.
July 4, 2019, 12:57 AM · Just waiting for the "Schymman Schertzo played backwards while riding a monocycle and balancing my spare bow on the nose" thread......
July 4, 2019, 1:27 AM · No soloist is going to play this excerpt in live performance because it's an orchestral piece and doesn't really make sense without the full orchestra.

An audition is harder than a live solo performance. In a live solo performance, the audience will not notice the occasional error as long as it sounds good overall. In an audition, you're playing in front of a panel that knows the piece inside-out and will not hesitate to stop you in the middle of the excerpt and say "we've heard enough, thank you for your time."

Edited: July 4, 2019, 4:51 AM · Bo pontoppidan

"Shoe-man Scherzo":
- you gave me a great idea for a stunt -
- maybe to play it fast while there's a shoe tied to the left hand that holds the violin;)))
- it should be hard because of the weight of the shoe...

July 4, 2019, 6:46 AM · If the Schu fits, wear it.
Edited: July 4, 2019, 8:18 AM · I don't want to be rude -
But i just auditioned to the Israeli Philharmonic highly! professional Orcheatra. I was invited based on my videos that were classified here as "horrible".
;))
July 4, 2019, 8:39 AM · I really wanna hear the "fastest in the world" version of Pachelbel's Canon.
July 4, 2019, 9:33 AM · The Israel Philharmonic did indeed hold violin auditions on July 4, which is publicly available information, but I note that per the website, the application process did not include any video submission.
Edited: July 4, 2019, 10:09 AM · Mary Ellen Goree

I didn't learn in Musical academy and never played in professional orcheatra,
All what they had is my videos, that i sent them with links.

By the way - i managed to play the Scherzo in about 160 fully in almost the same level as in the video above.
But I don't think they were impressed - because they ended the audition after the Scherzo, and i think i heard some resenful noises from the judges;)).
Eventually i didn't pass.
But still i think it is pretty good for first audition.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PeejLofTti5nsWTH8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tSHfnYCtpwifcHEz5

July 4, 2019, 9:45 AM · I can't speak to anything at all from the professional side - I'm far from that.

I have, however, been wondering for months why there is always the focus on being the fastest? In all of the threads you've posted since I've been a member of this forum, it's always been about being the fastest as your sole indication of quality and you've used every possible reason/excuse to distract attention from anything but your speed. I've seen no expression, literal or otherwise, of enjoying your music, of interest in what others are doing, or even a technical question/discussion on how to play. It's you vs everyone else. Why is that? That question isn't for me, but for you - on the very slight off-chance that you're really not the troll you appear to be.

July 4, 2019, 10:24 AM · David, was the letter addressed to you?
July 4, 2019, 10:32 AM · I am surprised that the Israel Philharmonic does not resume-screen for a conservatory degree.

What else did you play at the audition, David?

For future efforts, note that playing ABOVE the expected tempo is just as bad as playing BELOW it, because it indicates that you have not done the preparation of listening to the recording to determine what is the expected tempo; that is considered unprofessional and disqualifying. In the case of the Scherzo the tempo is also clearly marked.

July 4, 2019, 10:35 AM · Rather, what else were you hoping to play?
July 4, 2019, 10:37 AM · Adrian Heath
You can Call them to check.
July 4, 2019, 10:44 AM · Like any guitar virtuoso, you need to master your articulation at slower speeds before you can shred at faster speeds. I'm not going to be rude and condescending like some on here, I'll just say get it down at slower tempos first.
July 4, 2019, 10:49 AM · Jeffrey leavitt

I don't know why i didn't pass obviously, it may be the Scherzo and may be something else.
20 people out of 25 didn't pass.

If I'll decide to keep going with classical music (or generally with professional playing - I'm still not sure - even now) i was recommended to take a high level violin teacher to improve some things, and probably that what I'll do.

July 4, 2019, 12:14 PM · Lydia Leong
That surprised me too actually.
I couldn't believe too that it isn't mistake until i send them an email and got response, because as Adrian Heath said - they don't write the names ob the letters.

I played the Mozart 5th Concerto 1st movement and another Excerpt from Bartok concerto for orchestra.
July 4, 2019, 12:17 PM · They hired five out of 25? Wow those are pretty good odds.
July 4, 2019, 12:19 PM · Adrian Heath
This was the audition repertoire:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QCSe4dmNQW9XJ1mL9

I'm not sure it was the Scherzo, and that if i played something else that the result could be different. I don't think they judge by one Excerpt only.
There were very good violinist there - everthing was very fair. You can dream about such fair competition in Politics;))


Maybe the "Don Juan" could give a better impression, because of the virtuosity:

Edited: July 4, 2019, 12:31 PM · Paul Deck

No. 5 went to the final round next week.
Just 3 win.
(1 first violin and 2 second)

July 4, 2019, 1:05 PM · Any idea what age the three who got through are?
July 4, 2019, 1:09 PM · You should post your Mozart 5.

They require a Romantic Concerto as well -- what did you use? Did they give you a chance to play it?

I would doubt they looked at the videos. They might have decided local candidate who went to a music high school can occupy 10 minutes of the committee's time.

Edited: July 4, 2019, 1:18 PM · The romantic was the Bruch Concerto:

I will upload the Mozart later today.

I don't think that they do "open to everyone" audition based on thing like "played in High School" because they pay for the rehearsal with their pianist that i did and the audition took 3 hours.

Edited: July 4, 2019, 1:52 PM · Lydia Leong

This is Israel's best Orchestra with the Highest salaries - in Israel (and probably in every country) if you will give people to Audition based on them just writing "I played in High School" - half of the country will try to audition;)))

July 4, 2019, 2:29 PM · The five that continue on to the next round have likely spent many years preparing for auditions
July 4, 2019, 3:47 PM · You previously claimed you attended a prestigious "music academy".
July 4, 2019, 4:08 PM · @lydia Leong

Me? A music Academy?
I learned in Classical Musical Department in High School that is the biggest or one of the 2 biggest in Israel with many professional aspects - that's why i know classical music history etc.:

https://events.eventact.com/ProgramView2/Agenda/Lecture?id=143783&code=2760866

Edited: July 4, 2019, 5:03 PM · Lydia Leong

But you right that it was probably a big factor for them to let me audition - i, as i said, not exactly an "Amateur" - it is more like "Half professional" -
I think i have the theoretical knowledge to play in professional orchestra,

But i don't think that they accepted my application just by that without seeing the videos.
Especially that you don't learn to play there on violin. Just theory and Musical ensembles.

July 4, 2019, 7:47 PM · That Bruch is the cleanest thing you've posted to date.

I've been advised in the past that when playing a concerto for orchestra auditions, though, that even if it has a basically unaccompanied beginning, like the Bruch or the Tchaikovsky, that it should be played with a steady pulse and without any distortion of the rhythm, and that the remainder of the concerto should be played without any liberties that alter rhythm or the tempo, though there's normal tasteful freedom within the pulse, and customary ritards or accelerandos should still be taken, as long as directionality and pulse are clear.

Edited: July 4, 2019, 9:22 PM · David you're a very good violinist. Do you have a teacher? With a teacher and serious work (and putting aside playing as fast as possible, riding a bike while playing, choosing only "catchy" music, and all such bullshit which only wastes your talent) you could really improve. Did you ever consider that? In fact you've probably improved a lot since you posted your first videos here just by working hard. What would happen if you worked *smart* with the help of an excellent violin professor?

About the "local candidate" idea ... that happened to me once. I got an interview for a tenure-track professorship at a university where it was pretty clear I was not really competitive but it was a short trip for me, no airfare, etc. Plus I had a personal connection to that department. It was kind of discouraging because I knew I was not getting the job even during my interview (you can just tell you're not really "connecting"), but I just used it as a learning experience and -- guess what -- my next interview went much better because of it, and it landed me an offer and that's where I'm tenured now. So, if the judges were grimacing and snickering after your Schumann Scherzo, don't be upset -- be determined instead, determined to do the focused work you need to advance to the next level.

Edited: July 4, 2019, 10:09 PM · Paul Deck

I'll tell you the Truth - i don't think that i need a teacher (unless it is someone at very high level that can give some new advise on something new).
Because I'm not bragging - but I know how to play well on violin!. Very well.
All the technics etc. And how to practice them.


I think that i need someone to prepare me for what they want in classical music to pass such exams -
I really don't know what the people in classical music want -

For example:
I can put more emphasis on intonation and sound very clean and i prooved it (bruch Concerto for example or the Mozart that I'll upload today),
I can play very fast with high virtuosity, and i can play with very long bows (air by bach),
I can play with heavy vibrato and without vibrato at all,
To play scales fast,
And all other Technics.


In this audition for example i preferred to play it fast!, Very fast! - almost as in the video above With some compromises on clearly expressing every note,
I can of course play it slower and clearly - but i thought they will be more impressed by something like that. Because this piece checkes the coordination.
Probably i should have played it slower and clearly every note.

If you will play as soloist to general audience they will ne very impressed by something like the Scherzo above. Much more then very accurate slower Scherzo.


I think that i suitable more for solo playing - and the reason i wanted to play in orchestra was to gain some experience and contacts,
If I'll keep with classical music I'll probably will take a high level teacher to prepare me.
But i think that i might try something solo now.
The salaries in other orcheatras are too low.

July 4, 2019, 10:17 PM · Paul Deck

The "Midsummer night dream" Excerpt:
You can see that i can play fast and clear:

July 4, 2019, 10:49 PM · In classical audition when you play the Scherzo faster than 144 the judges probably think that you are nervous and
can't control yourself and that's why you play it so fast.

At least now i can tell that i did fully the "Fastest in the world audition of the Schumann Scherzo";)))

Edited: July 4, 2019, 11:31 PM · Maybe flawless (!) technique and a certain grade of virtuosity are only the basics, and members of such an auditioning comitee might mainly look for musicality, as well as for a cooperative personality. Just guessing.
What they will not be looking for is someone who might start arguing with the conductor / cm / section leader any time he's confronted with critics, and who has obvious issues with self esteem.

Still convinced we're getting pranked.

July 4, 2019, 11:26 PM · For the Midsummer NIght's Scherzo, they're looking for a delicate, light spiccato -- the fairy-gossamer sound; it needs to be both piano and crisp.

I think what audiences are impressed by is beauty and artistry. Virtuosity is impressive in that context. Stunts are great in the context of comedy. See a MozART Group video (LINK) for a good example.

Edited: July 4, 2019, 11:45 PM · If someone's wish was a basically successful career as a music performer ("for money"), he should be offer something that's more than "but my technique is almost 80% good!". It has to be at a (musical) level people enjoy to listen. And no, I don't want to start a discussion about contemporary music right now.
Regarding left hand technique, I'm not half the player than you are. But hey, that's no problem - as long as I will choose my repertoire wisely and within my capabilities when playing for an audience. And if someone pays to listen, it's for beneficial purposes at maximum, and not to earn money for myself, so the expectations are set a bit lower probably. But a professional orchestra, even if not top notch, can choose from highly trained and experienced people. They don't have to accept anyone not quite fit for the job, looking for a learning experience.
Edited: July 5, 2019, 12:44 AM · @Paul Deck

I'm not just not upset, I probably one of the happiest people today:

I didn't play on violin seriously for 15 years, that was my first public playing in 15 years, and it was in Audition in the biggest hall in Israel (Israel's "Carnegie Hall") ,to one of the best orcheatras in the world - how can i complain about anything?

Of course i will leran something from it and change things. If I'll decide to continue with professional playing next time I'll probably will take a high level teacher to prepare.

Edited: July 5, 2019, 3:32 AM · David here are some sincere, considered comments on one of your recent posts:

"I'll tell you the Truth - i don't think that i need a teacher"
- Top soloists take lessons with teachers who play less well than them, to have a "second opinion".

"I really don't know what the people in classical music want"
- All the aspects mentioned in these long threads!

"I can put more emphasis on intonation and sound very clean"
- Not "more emphasis", rather "zero tolerance" when practicing.

"I can play very fast with high virtuosity, and i can play with very long bows"
- But both at once?

"I can play with heavy vibrato and without vibrato at all,"
- A flexible, varied vibrato allows precision with strength.

"To play scales fast",
- And every vibrant note in tune right to end of the fingerboard? Judges' ears are faster than your fingers!

"And all other Technics."
- Spiccato, saltellato, louré, sul tasto, sul ponticello?

"Probably i should have played it slower and clearly every note."
- Rather, fast and clearly every note!

Bon courage!


Edited: July 5, 2019, 7:43 AM · Adrian Heath

I'll be straight forward, and say what i said before, and hopefully it will not sound bad:

I'm here (in professional playing) for the money!.
That's why i have problem to audition to average orcheatra (where the salary is practically a minimum wage if you consider the practice time).

I'm a politician who learned politics and failed to be elected, and knows that in professional work in politics you have low salaries (if any) and now thinks about professional playing or something else as a "day job".

It doesn't mean that i will do a bad job of course, or that i don't like it, many professionals, probably even most of them, are in the profession for the money.

I think - and you can see it too, that i can play all the pieces that i play technically. In most cases with good intonation and speed and even Musicality that is enough for the average listener
And beyond - because orchestra like the Israeli philharmonic won't invite an "Amateur" that barely knows how to hold a violin to audition (The way people here describe me).

In pop music everything is simple - if you play with nice intonation, and all the notes, it is considered good.
In classical music I'm totally confused - I still can't understand what it tjis "Musicality" that everyone talk about in classical music. It is something vague. You can pretty much say that everthing is not in tune and not musical enough, and i feel that that what people do.
If I'll take a teacher it will be not for me, but to figure out what classical professionals think is "musical" - when they want strong vibrato or more soft bow and things like that.
I think i can do all this things technically.


Edited: July 5, 2019, 7:58 AM · Adrian Heath

Take for example the Schumman Scherzo:
I still can't understand what classical musicians want in that piece:
You want speed? You want clear and bright intonation ? You want to hear every note?

Because you can't get all of that in speed like 144, especially with orchestra.

I assumed that Schumann wanted the speed First and foremost and i gave it, compromising on some of the other things.
Otherwise i would have played it slowly.
And i can do both as the "Midsummer night's dream" excerpt proves.

July 5, 2019, 8:07 AM · I think the best thing you could do in terms of fixing the confusion is to actually get a teacher as you say.
July 5, 2019, 8:10 AM · "Because you can't get all of that in speed like 144, especially with orchestra."

What do you say to this though?

Edited: July 5, 2019, 8:32 AM · Urban Kristan

I don't think it is 144. Maybe just in the beginning. And then she slows down.
And this is probably the fastest version on YouTube (execpt of mine).

Also, I heard the speed of the Schumman Scherzo by other players in the Audition, I don't think that anyone played in 144!. (I definitely played in 144, and probably more - but it was with some compromises).

But Schumman wanted 144!!.i guess for all! The piece.

July 5, 2019, 8:59 AM · And also harmony and rhythm. Wailing away at 160 won't make up for absence in those departments.
Edited: July 5, 2019, 9:11 AM · Stephen Symsych

I don't think that in Schumman time the Violinists were better and could play it clearly fully in 144 too,
And still Schumann wrote 144!. The Number.

Therefore i gues that he accepted some compromise on things like clearly play every note,
Or that when orcheatra play it it doesn't sound so bad.
But to play it solo is different thing.

July 5, 2019, 9:16 AM · To play it well you have to compromise on the speed!,
And that what people do in solo playing,
But how can you compromise on the speed when the composer says clearly 144!?
Edited: July 5, 2019, 9:22 AM · It's not the whole video, it starts at the presto double speed.
Edited: July 5, 2019, 9:25 AM · It's pretty clear from your playing that you don't understand the concept "musicality". However, if you listen to this same Inhee Park play the Bach Double with Ray Chen in the background you'll maybe hear the difference. She plays better technically, but also she plays musically, rather than just playing the notes angrily.

Of course this woman is fifteen or twenty years younger than you, so guess who an orchestra would pick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sIQLPko09c

Edited: July 5, 2019, 9:45 AM · David, I'll try again!

"I still can't understand what it this 'Musicality' that everyone talk about in classical music."
- That is really sad.
In a way, the Music is between and behind the notes.
There is the beauty of each and every note, even at speed, and the beauty of the intention that links them.

"To play it well you have to compromise on the speed!"
- No you don't; you just have to do the right sort of practice!

Keep up the good work! (..and drop the bad..)

Edited: July 5, 2019, 9:48 AM · Herman West

She played the Scherzo very well, i agree about it, and it is probably the fastest video on YouTube on it except of mine - but I don't think itvis 144!. That's the issue here - if you can play it that clearvin 144.


And about my Musicality and tune
Mozart should be a good indication for that, because it is in all auditions:

Edited: July 5, 2019, 9:56 AM · It all depads on what you have to emphasize:
In the Mozart it is clear that it is the intonation, so i worked on that, and took it slowly. In the Scherzo it isn't clear - you can't get the Mozart level in 144. Just if you compromise on the speed, so what you have to do? Compromise on speed? Butvthe composer wanted 144!!.
Edited: July 5, 2019, 10:03 AM · Great that you like your own playing that much.
However that is not a factor in professional performance.
The Mozart is highly problematic.

You don't seem to notice that age is a factor, too.
Sure, if you were to study with a good teacher, you would get better over time. But in that case you would be at the level of eighteen or twenty year olds when you are 45 years old, and it's not so hard to picture who an orchestra would prefer to hire.

Also, one cannot help but notice you just said you did not need a teacher.

Edited: July 5, 2019, 10:42 AM · Professional auditions are conducted behind a screen for the first round at the least, which attempts to remove some age bias. You can get a job in your 40s if you play at at the appropriate level. Musicians do move around; their orchestras have financial troubles, their spouse relocates, etc.

That Mozart proves that David can play almost entirely in tune if he focuses on it. I think sound control / right-hand issues prevent that from being an audition-winning sort of performance though.

I recorded myself playing this concerto some time back, in what I think is not audition-quality playing. I'd have to put a lot of work into details if I wanted it to be good enough; I put less than 10 hours into learning it, which is not the kind of time that withstands stressful situations. (I post this to note that I am just as critical of my own playing as I am of David's.)

I'd be curious what some of the orchestral pros here think of the various videos; what would the committee say? My understanding is that for everything there's stuff that is especially being looked for, but in general, it's not acceptable to compromise anything whatsoever, and that if there's anything that impresses, it's having immaculate control.

Edited: July 5, 2019, 11:46 AM · David, your Mozart show some delicacy of phrasing (part of Musicality!!)
As Lydia suggests, you are still using the upper half of the bow too much and pressing too hard. Her tone is more singing, even in the fast bits.

And as I said before, yes we can play the Scherzo at 144bpm reliably and beautifully if we do the right sort of practice (as described by Mary Ellen). You are simply quite wrong about this.

Edited: July 5, 2019, 11:45 AM · David I listened to your Mozart. You're playing it better than I can. I didn't listen to the Cadenza because I don't care about that (I know -- it's important -- but Mozart didn't write it -- presumably you are using the Joachim). I also felt you could use more middle and lower bow and generate more singing tone, also there are a lot of notes that you start out at f or mf and then suddenly you drop them to mp or p. My teacher told me not to do this in Mozart. And it's a symptom of playing in the upper half. Also in your Adagio I felt you were rushing in some places toward the end. Listen to the orchestral part, they have 16th notes, right? At the start of your Allegro Aperto your trills are not clear. Plan for fewer "taps" but make them clear, so we can hear ever individual note. Right before you cut to the Cadenza there is a section that leads back to the main theme -- this you are playing up-down, up-down and my teacher taught me that too, but he told me to do it at the frog with a light bow just with your wrist and fingers like a long colle stroke and it's a nice sound. Also that's way too much ritardando there, it sounds kind of tasteless ("too obvious"). If you use any at all, I would only allow the slightest hesitation at the end, on the last couple of 16th notes.
Edited: July 5, 2019, 12:50 PM · "You can get a job in your 40s if you play at at the appropriate level."

Lydia, it's more about experience. How well is a 45 year old rookie going to adapt, with no experience whatsoever in what it takes to make an orchestra a living breathing group? And this compared to a 25 year old Conservatory graduate who's played in various ensembles, most likely.And to a 45 year old orchestra professional who is moving to another city or something....

Nice Mozart!

July 5, 2019, 12:52 PM · Everything said what was to say. But please, David, would you mind to emphasize a bit more on a small irrelevant detail like the composer's name? It's Robert SCHUMANN. Could you? Pleeease...
Edited: July 5, 2019, 2:51 PM · What you're talking about -- hiring the 25-year-old before the 45-year-old because of "adaptability" and such. I reject that. I think that's total ageist crap, and while it might actually be happening in some places, I'm glad that in the United States this practice is a violation of Federal employment law. Experience is another matter. A 25-year-old with more experience than the corresponding 45-year-old should rightly have an edge.

I just listened to the same amount of Lydia's playing. I don't know if it's an intonation thing, but her passage-work in the upper registers just seems more secure. There is that one chord a few bars before the recap (an E major triad inversion). Lydia's was much better in tune.

I didn't like Lydia's tempo management in the adagio, or David's. To make sure I wasn't too far off base, I listened to HH and her tempo is much more constant -- of course she also has an orchestra behind her to drum out those 16th notes. I measured Lydia's initial tempo in the adagio at eighth-note = 60, which is exactly HH's tempo throughout that section. David also started at 60, but then he accelerated to around 75 before taking his ritardando, that's too much movement for my taste.

I dunno -- sometimes when I listen to people playing the adagio I get the feeling that they just want to get that part over with so they can get to the "real" exposition of the Allegro. But for me, the adagio is something to enjoy like taking a lovely warm bath -- but the violinist cannot luxuriate too much: This is not romantic music. The little improvisation that is offered at the end of the adagio -- I get that this is a standard "thing to do" but it shouldn't sound that way. It needs to sound somehow more spontaneous -- not sure how to do that when one is behind a screen where stage-acting has no effect.

Now correct me if I am wrong -- there is one passage of 16th notes where one has to choose whether to play open E or fourth finger E, and I think Lydia played 4th finger while David played open E. I think open E makes the passage sound more brilliant (and it's harder!), so kudos to David for playing that part nicely (I struggle with it). On the other hand, there are many high E's that one can play as either regular stopped note (with vibrato!) or as harmonic, and basically David played all those as harmonics, which I believe is a tiny bit of a cop-out.

Edited: July 5, 2019, 3:01 PM · The opening adagio is treacherous -- you've got to keep the orchestral part in your head, but just as importantly, the line has to be expressive and have direction. I'm not consciously aware of having made a tempo change, and even listening to it, I think I'd have to put a metronome against it to be aware of any tempo change, and my teacher wants the opening to be played metrically. For me, listening critically to the opening, my awareness is more that the line needs more shape and color. This goes back to the notion that what the listener cares about is beauty.

Paradoxically, Paul, I think some of what you are hearing as "less security" from David is a right-hand rather than left-hand effect. I'm in the lower half of the bow, off the string, a lot more. That results in a crisper sound and it forces the left hand to be precisely timed. And I almost always opt for silent shifts; if you hear a shift it's almost certainly deliberate. I have relatively little use of harmonics, and more passages played in higher positions on lower strings to avoid mid-phrase color changes.

July 5, 2019, 2:52 PM · Your tempo change was much more subtle than David's. I listened again and I think I'm being extremely picky. I think you would nail it with orchestra. The comparison to HH is unfair.
Edited: July 5, 2019, 3:06 PM · When we compared with the gods... ;-) Your point is a fair one, though, because in an audition situation it has to be absolutely steady.

Which passage are you thinking of? (Video time point?)

July 5, 2019, 4:11 PM · In your video at 2:40.
July 5, 2019, 4:24 PM · Ah. I keep the beginning of the passage on the A string and then switch to the open E later in the passage. This is deliberate in terms of where the color should change. You don't want the brilliance of the open E until it's next to the higher-octave A on the E string.
July 5, 2019, 5:40 PM · Herman, U.S. orchestras do not hire (or refuse to hire) based on age; virtually all auditions are screened at least for the first few rounds, and in some cases finals are screened also. Not to mention it is illegal to discriminate based on age.

Several years ago we hired a (non-string) principal player who was, I believe, mid-40s.

July 5, 2019, 8:08 PM · David,

your vibrato makes my wrists hurt, just from listening to it. Maybe your calling is for violin ASMR?

Edited: July 5, 2019, 10:04 PM · I like his vibrato for Mozart. Not so much for Bruch.

Lydia thanks, I'll study that more closely.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 12:20 AM · Cotton Mather
"Fastest in the world vibrato";)))

But seriously -
I don't like to do heavy vibrato, sometimes not to do it at all, even in romantic pieces as in the Bruch concerto, i think it effects the intonation feeling too about my playing.

It is not that it is bad thing to do a vibrato - Ray chen for example does amazing one,
In my case i preferbit, in most cases, with less vibrato.


July 5, 2019, 11:05 PM · It's important to avoid big swells-and-fades on the same note. Both the bow speed and the intensification and slowdown of the vibrato cause this effect. You can get away with a narrower vibrato in Mozart but a Romantic concerto demands more amplitude and a more relaxed, slower vibrato.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 2:37 AM · Mary Ellen, what I was saying was: what does it tell you (when you're deciding on a tutti player) that a 45-year old has never played in an ensemble of orchestra of any shape or kind? About his ability to work with other players and with various conductors?

Of course in DK's case there are also other indicators, such as he didn't go to a conservatory, he doesn't want to work with a teacher, he seeks and rejects advice (in other words, it's just an attention getting device), he refuses to check the spelling of the name Schumann.

Today's world (online) is full of people who are a law unto him or herself, but perhaps these people are not the best fit in an orchestra, which is really a very fragile microkosmos. If I were running an orchestra I'd be foolish if I didn't take these matters into consideration.

July 6, 2019, 2:50 AM · Herman, a middle-aged player with no ensemble experience isn’t going to pass an audition anyway. But if a hypothetical audition yielded two qualified finalists, age and gender will not determine the winner.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 8:51 AM · Herman West

If you didn't read what i wrote about myself I'll tell it again:
I'm not a violinist,
I'm a politician!, Who learned politics academically in probably the best Academy in Israel (even if i didn't finish the degree - it still has a meaning)

For the last years i tried to create a party in Israel and to be elected to the Israeli Parliament and I'm still envolved in politics and will be,

But Since i failed last month to be elected (as most candidates fail), i decided to try professional violin Playing instead going to professional political work - why? Because i think that I'm in High level that can bring me more money and better position then doing some professional job in politics (not all the jobs that related to politics are elected positions),

That's why I'm not sure still that I'm going to play professionally on violin, even if i will become professional orcheatra member.
With low salaries, I'll probably go back to some professional work in Politics or something else.

If my level isn't really high, and can't bring good saley and position, I don't see myself now, at 34, starting to "work on that" with musical academy etc.
It will be much easier for me to go back to politics or do some other thing.

July 6, 2019, 9:04 AM · Personally, the thing I find most disconcerting about all of David's threads......... is:

I lack his technical dexterity...... I have an abundance a love of and connection to the music. [and a good ear]
Luckily, I have no delusions of playing the fiddle professionally... but still struggle on for my own entertainment.
Unfortunately, there is no chance of "transplants" from donors who have "unused" skills.

Back to the practice desk.............

Edited: July 6, 2019, 9:22 AM · Herman west

You say that i don't want to go to a teacher, and people here said before that i don't want to audition to orcheatra (i proved they were wrong):

The problem is that i don't see the economical potential in doing this, all these things are big investment of time and money:

For example - to take teachers in the high level i need i will have to spend thousands of dollars, right? And To practice a lot,
And for what?
Average orcheatra where i will get a salary that is almost as i have now working in security!!!???
And when i can get more by doing professional work in politics, that i learned?

If it is something like Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra, or some solo carrier where there are significantly higer salaries, and if i had a very realistic chance then maybe. But it is a big risk too.

I'm not against anything - but i have to be realistic - to start now going to academy and spend thousands of dollars on something vage, isn't realistic.v
It has to have financial reason.

July 6, 2019, 9:28 AM · If money is what you are after, realistically, odds are you can make more money in politics. Odds also are that you will continue to lose auditions to those who are in music to play music.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 10:28 AM · Dawson weber

When was the last time you gave money to some political organization, or gave money to a party or to some politician, or bought tickets to some political event?
Never, right?
The same most people.

So how you want them to live? To support themselves?
They have to do something else (unless they are corrupt, or supported by special interests).
It isn't good that that what happenes - but that's what happens.


I'm doing politics for politics!,
But you don't have any money their, and not just in my case - most of the organizations have this problem,
so i have to do something else.

Politics is vital thing! That's why i don't give money stop me (despite it a big problem that stop the advancement of things) ,but music - with all the respect - isn't vital thing. No one will die if he won't hear the Famous "Paganini caprice on a bike";))), that's why i can think about money as basic thing.

It doesn't mean that I'll play bad or won't think professionally - but i can allow myself morally not do it if it isn't profitable.
Probably most of the professionals, including in music won't do it if it won't be profitable.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 10:56 AM · "When was the last time you gave money to some political organization, or gave money to a party or to some politician, or bought tickets to some political event? Never, right?"

Well, in my case, not entirely never, but seldom. I don't see what my $500 is going to do when there are super-PACs raising tens or hundreds of millions from individuals and entities that are insanely rich. I also stopped making contributions to my former educational institutions for essentially the same reason. The same $500 is better spent on local charities that help the poor, victims of domestic violence, and so forth.

And moreover, I would prefer that elections were publicly funded and private money was removed from them, but presently, in the U.S. at least, the pendulum is swinging the other way.

Anyway does every thread have to dissolve into politics? You call yourself a politician and you said that you lost "as most candidates fail," but how many votes did you (or your "party" or whatever) even get?

By the way I think it's also unnecessarily mean to imply, as Michael did, that David's fast fingers are somehow wasted on him because he doesn't want to study the violin in a conventional way. He enjoys the violin on his own terms. Green is not a particularly becoming color on those lacking his facility.

July 6, 2019, 11:20 AM · I don't think anyone here is envious of his facility. Speed without control and precision is not a gift; if anything, it can be a curse.
July 6, 2019, 11:36 AM · Lydia Leong

I will soon, maybe even in the upcoming days will record the Scherzo on "normal" speed (about 144 or less) and you will see that i can play it much more clearly.

Higher speed = less clarity. That's know fact.

In Schumann Scherzo the demand of the composer was 144!.

I don't know why i didn't pass the audition - But if it was because of the Scherzo and because everyone played clearly in less then 144, while i was irrelevant because it wasn't clear but in 144 or more - i think it is very arguable decision.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 11:41 AM · To play slower than the composer wanted for "clarity" is a compromise! Too,
As it is a compromise to play not clearly but in 144.
July 6, 2019, 11:45 AM · My Scherzo above isn't just the fastest in the world but also the only! Scherzo that I've seen played solo that is real 144 or above fully!!!.
If I'm wrong you can show me a relevant video on YouTube.
July 6, 2019, 12:24 PM · David, did they then ask you to play it less fast for more clarity?
Did they ask for other excepts?
Perhaps they could judge you on your choice of speed, or on other aspects..

Anyway, clarity is quite possible at 144 bpm, if you practice properly.

July 6, 2019, 12:31 PM · Lydia wrote: "I'd be curious what some of the orchestral pros here think of the various videos; what would the committee say? "

When it comes to David K's videos, the committee would just say "no." His playing is simply not at the level where he could pass the prelims for even a low-end (say $1 million plus) U.S. regional orchestra.

I'd like to say something helpful about your video, but I'm struggling a bit. Human experiences verging on the ineffable are difficult to represent linguistically. :)

Let's try the idea of "pre-correction." Anything we do exists in our minds first, before our hands move. Imagine what your playing would be like if you had a magic sensory-deprivation device that cancelled all feedback from your playing - you would be blind, deaf, and also could not feel the bow / strings etc. You could still send the signals out, but you wouldn't know if they worked. That's a bit what it's like if you've ever taught a young beginner. They have no particular investment in what the results "should" be like, so what you get in the real world is a direct unedited mirroring of what's in their minds.

As they gradually learn the parameters of musical culture (what "good tone" sounds like, what "in tune" sounds like) they learn to intercept those mental signals and adjust them. So, their playing gets better - more in tune, less scratchy, etc., but at the cost of mental effort.

Every so often though you get a student whose default, instinctive movements already get pretty good results to begin with. They're free to direct their mental effort elsewhere.

(This dichotomy, BTW, is one that exists across cultures and disciplines. The language of asian philosophy has been illustrating it for hundreds of years with the metaphor of the cognitive fighter who thinks his way through a fight like a chess player, vs. the enlightened fighter who, with an empty mind, simply moves instinctively and immediately in response to whatever the moment demands. It's the moon on the puddle metaphor.)

Your video reminds me of the first kind of student. Pretty good playing that you keep in the pocket by application of will. When there are little flaws or errors, it's because you *failed in the struggle.*

The great audition-winners I've known give the impression that they are either like the second student (i.e., biologically advantaged in some way) or they have managed to reprogram their automatic instinctive playing processes so that it creates good results without supervision. The only way I know of to get this effect, if you aren't one of nature's lucky lottery winners, is through a lot of grooving. Not just of the audition material, but of basic motor patterns with strategically targeted drills. (I mean like thoughtful use of Sevcik, or Simon Fischer's drills from Basics.)

So, depending on a myriad of factors, you might have a chance at some regional auditions playing at the level of that video, but to do well at a really competitive audition your playing needs to become more "effortless." That is a word I really hate, especially when people use it on me, because it leaves me at a loss about how to make decisions that will lead to improvement. I hope the preceding comments will give it some context and make it less annoying.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 12:41 PM · Adrian Heath
No. They didn't ask. they probably were too shocked by it;)))

But seriously - I can't know if ot was the Scherzo obviously but i think that it might be because of it, or that it might gave bed impression because
Everyone had to play 4 pieces:
The mozart, and 3 exerpts.
The Scherzo was the 3rd.

They listened fully to the Mozart and the first excerpt, and to the Scherzo too. But stopped after it and i think i heard some resent noises from the Judges (it was with a curtain).

I agree by the way that it wasn't "classical clear" and it was close to what you see in the video above.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 2:57 PM · I think I know what you're talking about because before I stopped playing, I generally gave off the impression of effortless control, and it felt that way, too. I think the routine patterns are key; I did a ton of Schradieck and Sevcik as a kid that meant that not only were the patterns routine but the ability to make slight modifications with minimal effort was easy. To play Mozart now requires vigilance, especially in the right hand where the sensation of control isn't reliable. And I haven't spent enough time on that movement (less than a dozen hours) to have the real fluidity of autopilot.

Thanks for your feedback; I am curious if you can identify more specifically when something sounds like effort -- what betrays it. I suspect it's mostly in the right-hand organization, since the left-hand feels fairly organized? (My goal is to win a freeway philharmonic sub audition, at some point, and I am acutely aware that this isn't up to the expected standard in terms of, as you say, little errors.)

Most of my practice time is spent absorbing new repertoire. If I really wanted to focus on improving, I suspect that at least 30 minutes a day should go to foundational technical drills and etudes. I have to think about control frequently these days because I never really fully re-grounded myself in playing-as-habit.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 1:01 PM · Lydia Leong

But i didn't loose control. Because i practiced it in that speed. The video above was published before the audition.

And they saw it! - because they let me to finish all the excerpt:
If it was horrible they probably would have stopped it.

July 6, 2019, 1:08 PM · The committee might have been (a) polite, or (b) aghast.

It's not really controlled. That much noise in your spiccatto means that the bounce from the string isn't absolutely controlled. Also, try setting a metronome to your recording. You'll notice immediately that your tempo isn't fully steady. All those things indicate a lack of absolute control.

July 6, 2019, 1:23 PM · I think that they waited to see if i will make a mistake and stop. Like a train that goes off track.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 1:34 PM · As i said here before the audition- my biggest concern about this speed is that you loose control - you can easily make significant mistake.
I would have probably too heard till the end to see it the person really control the speed and plays fast or just nervous.
I don't think you can finish playing such piece if you are just "nervous".
July 6, 2019, 1:38 PM · I am confident that the committee was being polite. We do this all the time (allow a candidate to play past the point where we have crossed them off, especially if that point occurs at the very beginning of the audition).

I am also confident that the committee was some variation of aghast.

July 6, 2019, 1:48 PM · Mary Ellen Goree,

It was the third piece out of 4,and they heard fully all of the three.
After the first 2 it was very quiet.

After the Scherzo (the 3td) they stopped the audition and i think i heard some resent noises from the judges.

Since I played something very close to the video above -
It probably was the Scherzo that ended the audition, right?

Edited: July 6, 2019, 1:52 PM · If you just "play fast" (but perfectly) you can still get crossed off because it's unprofessional to play above the expected tempo. It indicates a lack of understanding of the context of the excerpt.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 2:41 PM · Lydia Leong

I'll learn my lesson anyway - next time I'll play slower and very clear - I audition for the money and the job and they pay it, they are the boss;)),

But i think they should say clearly what they want. You can't say to people play in 144!, And audition this piece because it is in 144 and very fast and then to cross off someone because he plays it in the speed.
You ok with 136 or 130? And you prefer clear sound over the speed? Say it clearly.

July 6, 2019, 2:46 PM · The 144! Is the big deal of this piece.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 2:55 PM · That's in the general category of "professional expectations". If you're not sure what the professional expectations are, you are expected to study with a coach who can make those expectations clear.

In an ideal world one doesn't have to guess what the committee will say. You work with a teacher who sits on such committees and they provide appropriate feedback so that you know whether or not what you're doing conforms to an audition-winning pattern.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 2:58 PM · And again - I'm not sure that it was the reason - 20 people didn't pass out of 25, no one played in this speed,
So it might be something else as with all the rest,
I don't want to say something that i don't know.

But ifcit was because of that I think it is arguable, and anyway it should be clear what the judges bin auditions want to see - 144! And clear currently is unrealistic - if you accept 130 or 136 with clear motes you should say it clearly.

July 6, 2019, 3:06 PM · Why does it have to be with an orchestra? Why not hire a pianist and give recitals? You can rent a hall, sell tickets, invite the press. I don't know what it takes to enter a competition, but you might want to look into that.
July 6, 2019, 3:09 PM · David, in some ways, you and I are not so different. Both of us are adult amateurs with serious childhood training, other careers, not a lot of time to practice, and some degree of professional orchestra ambitions. For you, it's a way to earn money. For me, I don't care about the money even a little bit; I just want to experience a higher level of music-making and drive myself to play better.

We differ in our level of self-criticism. I am relentlessly self-critical; I hear every bobble and I want to do something about it and believe that it is possible to do something about it, even if I find that I don't really have the practice-time available to make things sound the way they should. I think you have a tendency to do something that one of my childhood teachers told me to strenuously avoid -- being self-impressed and believing that it's impossible to really get it any better. I usually believe that if it's not getting better, I need a more clever way to practice it, more work on it, or some insight into what I am doing incorrectly (even if it's subtly incorrect).

July 6, 2019, 3:14 PM · I wonder if the "local candidate" thing discussed above is the main reason the audition went as long as it did. Because DK's Mozart, while much better than the Schumann, still sounds to me like the playing of a good-but-not-great amateur. There are plenty of auditioned community orchestras where that quality of playing is a minimum standard, for unpaid amateur players.
July 6, 2019, 3:15 PM · Hi Lydia,

I wrote a long answer, but there’s also a kind of short version. The short version is, we should love our playing while we’re doing it, and only care about it afterwards. David K loves his playing afterwards, when he shouldn’t. I think you care about your playing too much while you’re doing it. (And I do too.)

Your question is really hard to answer; how to know when you're "working too hard?" I struggle with it for my own playing every time I take an audition, and, in fact, right now. I just moved across country at the beginning of the year, so I'm looking at breaking into a new orchestra market (I'm a freelancer). That means taking 4 or 5 auditions this fall.

Vigilance is the perfect word! I don't want to have to be vigilant to be in tune. I want good intonation to be something that *just happens to me.*

Since you're asking for specifics, I'll try to give a couple of examples from the first part of your video.

The first thing I noticed was that your first three notes in the video are 3 different lengths (they get longer as you go). I'm going to assume that that was not on purpose, and I bet that you didn't notice it while it was happening. This is the whole problem; the automatic part of our playing is what makes the most difference, not the details that we're trying to consciously manage. How do we change things if we’re unaware that we're doing them? If you are like me, your response will be to get out a scientific measuring tool and put it on various beat patterns fast and slow and run a bunch of tests where you practice measuring those notes a bunch of different ways to make them identical.

But at the end of the day, what you will have accomplished is making those notes precise at the cost of using your bow like a ruler. Somehow you need to go from carefully measuring the length of those notes while playing them, to *accidentally* playing them perfectly evenly, just because perfect evenness happens to be a part of the imaginary version of the piece that lives in your head.

After that, nothing bothered me for the rest of the phrase. When we got to your first trill, I perked up my ears. I thought it was really good! But then the space from the end of that trill to the pickup to the next phrase was all furry. It seemed like you were worrying ahead, so that the end of the last note of the first phrase (after the turn) wasn't tidy. The pitch dropped, I think because you lost speed relative to weight. Then it seemed like your bow speed for the pickup was too fast, and there was noise during the rest. Again, I bet that this didn't happen because you made *bad decisions.* I bet it happened because you were consciously worrying about something else, and any time we consciously worry it takes CPU cycles away from our automatic processes. The automatic processes are what make or break us, not the details that our conscious selves are obsessing over.

The best way to play is to think as little as possible - well, to not *need* to think very much. Someone once asked Milstein what he thought about while he played. He replied "nothing much; I'm just trying not to spoil the music."

I think what we're talking about here is the same thing that Daniel Coyle calls (if memory serves) "Mental Pressure." He illustrates it in "The Talent Code" with a story about how Wayne Gretzky falls down a lot when he practices. He says that we need the mental pressure in practice, because that stimulus is what triggers our brains to release learning chemicals. But we don't want the kind of playing we do at an audition to give us the feeling of mental pressure. (We have plenty of other kinds of pressure to deal with at auditions!) Galamian talks about building technique in excess of what's required for the repertoire. I think what happens is, if you haven't done that, you develop a kind of micro-tension. The anticipation that things might not go how you want leads you to brace some small muscles, like bracing for a car crash. Mozart is kind of like walking the high-wire - the more you practice it the more aware you are of how easy it is to fall off. Then you start playing to avoid the fall. It gets to be a habit, where you always play consciously, when what you really want is a kind of bounded impetuousness, like Chuangtzu's man swimming in the gorge:

"Confucius was looking at the cataract near the gorge of Lü, which fell a height of 240 cubits, and the spray of which floated a distance of forty lî, (producing a turbulence) in which no tortoise, gavial, fish, or turtle could play. He saw, however, an old man swimming about in it, as if he had sustained some great calamity, and wished to end his life. Confucius made his disciples hasten along the stream to rescue the man; and by the time they had gone several hundred paces, he was walking along singing, with his hair dishevelled, and enjoying himself at the foot of the embankment. Confucius followed and asked him, saying, 'I thought you were a sprite; but, when I look closely at you, I see that you are a man. Let me ask if you have any particular way of treading the water.' The man said, 'No, I have no particular way. I began (to learn the art) at the very earliest time; as I grew up, it became my nature to practise it; and my success in it is now as sure as fate. I enter and go down with the water in the very centre of its whirl, and come up again with it when it whirls the other way. I follow the way of the water, and do nothing contrary to it of myself;-- this is how I tread it.' Confucius said, 'What do you mean by saying that you began to learn the art at the very earliest time; that as you grew up, it became your nature to practise it, and that your success in it now is as sure as fate?' The man replied, 'I was born among these hills and lived contented among them;-- that was why I say that I have trod this water from my earliest time. I grew up by it, and have been happy treading it;-- that is why I said that to tread it had become natural to me. I know not how I do it, and yet I do it;-- that is why I say that my success is as sure as fate.'"

As far as how to achieve this, all the old masters east and west give the same instructions: practice the basics until they're second nature, and meditate a lot.

As far as how to identify its absence in your own playing, I think lots of video recording is useful. I mean, multiple takes per excerpt per practice session, interleaved with short bouts of corrective practice. I also think being finely aware of your own emotional state is crucial. You need to know exactly when your brain switches from happily bobbing along to "OMG I'M GOING TO DIE!" because those are the places where your motor programs aren't automatic. Really, just identifying the feeling of caution is enough. If you feel cautious when you're alone in the practice room, even if nothing actually goes wrong, it's practically a certainty that that's where you will clutch when someone is watching.

So, in my way of thinking, it's not that there are specific symptoms of "working hard," like "your hands get out of sync" (although that may happen). It's more like a set of tension-related hiccups that produce an overall effect of effort. Some people play too slowly in response, some people play too quickly and try to blow through. I tend to get rhythmically uneven - it will take me too long to finish a shift, or a string crossing, and then I will compress to catch up with the pulse, so it sounds like I'm alternately dragging and rushing. In addition, right arm tension (especially shoulder tension) will inject more lateral movement into my bow-stroke, making it noisier. I.e., the more you "follow the bow" without skidding the cleaner your sound will be, and tension will fuss with that. There's a lot of cross-wring too. The thing you're worrying about may come off OK, but something else will be sacrificed. Example from last week, my "progress check" recording of Schumann scherzo (just to stay on topic :) - there's that really nasty shift about 2/3 of the way down the first page where you have to cover a lot of fingerboard in a hurry. I got tense about the intonation, but on the recording the intonation was fine, but my stroke got really spacky. Or you can worry about dynamics not being loud enough and get crunchy, or not being soft enough and lose your connection with the string. The possibilities are endless... ;)

Anyway, I think subbing with a freeway philharmonic is well within your current capabilities. The standards for "real" auditions at these orchestras is sometimes unreasonably high. I've been behind the screen with committees who seem to have forgotten that they're hiring not for the NY Phil, but for an orchestra that will pay - at most - $5k a year. I think it's absurd that regional orchestras with multiple openings and 10 - 20 candidates in attendance routinely have no-hire auditions. All this is to say that, if you don't land a win immediately, don't feel too badly about it and don't be deterred. Regional orchestras rarely have enough violins, and being invited to sub with them can often be as simple as forming a relationship with their principle players. E-mail their titled players and ask if you can play for them as part of your audition prep, and maybe culminate by taking a lesson with their concertmaster (can be pricy, sadly).

July 6, 2019, 3:50 PM · @leon Skibinski

The problem is that i haven't played publically in 15 years, ans except of some gigs as a teen ager i never played professionally,

and to start perform solo is a big deal - you have to have some experience - playing in orchestra can give you that. As being akong professional musicians that can advise, cooperate with you and things like that.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 3:58 PM · Seriously - i don't knoe even now how should i play the Scherzo in the next audition?

I can probably do it very good and clean between 120 -130.
With less clarity in 130-140,
And with significant compromises in 140-144 and above.

What is preferred? In classical auditions?
Schumann said 144!.
But noone playes it that way because it isn't clear enough.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 4:07 PM · That's easy to tell. Preferred is 144, clear and clean, sounding relaxed and not stressful. And there definitely will be people auditioning for a seat in an orchestra like that, who are very well capable of playing at this level.
Again, they will not hire someone who is looking for a learning experience. You have to be fit for the job to get it, and should not be in need of "eventually growing into it". I'm sorry, but it's just as simple as that.
July 6, 2019, 4:10 PM · Nuuska m.

Orchestal players do solo performances too. orcheatra also has the benefit of stable workplace, unlike relying on solo performances. Therefore i don't see any problem.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 4:16 PM · Nuusaka M.
You said "its clear - preferred 144 clear and clean"

I'm not sure - because Schumann knew that violinists can't play it so fast clearly.why then he wrote 144?

Maybe he was ok with some compromises as i did l, that might not be heard in Orchestra playing.

July 6, 2019, 4:34 PM · "I'm not sure - because Schumann knew that violinists can't play it so fast clearly.why then he wrote 144?"

No, YOU can't play it so fast clearly. Thousands of violinists can. If professional violinists play slower in auditions, they are only doing so in order to play more musically. At 144 it will still be cleanly articulated and in tune.

July 6, 2019, 4:36 PM · Andrew Hsieh
Please show me such video on YouTube. With real 144.
Edited: July 6, 2019, 4:40 PM · "when you play it solo in audition 144 often sounds way too fast":

Edited: July 6, 2019, 4:50 PM · What I think is that maybe If you will isolate the sound the average orcheatra player when the conducter asks for 144, he will probably sound like me or even worse.
July 6, 2019, 5:08 PM · That's a hell of an extrapolation.

The rushed sound has more to do with phrasing and dynamics than the notes. With just the first violin part, even if the phrases are perfectly shaped, it all sounds very abrupt and angular at 144. In tempo, it makes more sense with the other sections of the orchestra.

July 6, 2019, 5:09 PM · I don't understand where this fanatical insistence on 144 is coming from. For one thing, is there proof that Schumann himself wanted 144? Is there a manuscript in his hand with that marking? Or is it some editor's opinion, just like so many bad fingerings you see in big-name editions from the late 19th century? If he had a metronome, was it accurate?

Remember that, even IF a composer puts a certain tempo on the score, there have been many anecdotes about composers who took totally different tempi when they conducted their own works.

Nathan Cole does a fine, convincing job at 144. However, if you start listening to many recordings out there, such as Bernstein, you see that most of them seem to fall in between 132-138, at least until the last page.

The characters of this piece is not blazingly fast.

If you wish to demonstrate how fast and frantically you can play, pick something more appropriate, such as the Death of Tybalt from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet.

July 6, 2019, 6:05 PM · Scott Cole

I insist on 144? I did a thread here before! My audition about it being too fast.

But 144 is what written and as was said in the video above it is the official expectation in auditions.


And Nathan cole played very well, as the other violinist https://youtu.be/xsRRxUlFYNQ
- but from my checking it is slower in the middle - the hard part - about 138 (Which is very high too).

I played everything with metronome therefore i conclude about the tempo based on Playing everything in 144.

Edited: July 6, 2019, 6:13 PM · I suppose the next thing we'll be looking forward to will be a world record speed for Paganini's Moto Perpetuo (all the notes being in the right place and order, of course) - leaving aside the little problem that, as I understand it, Paganini's indication of speed for the piece was a mere Allegro, and not Allegro Vivace or Presto etc, evidently thinking of it as music.
July 6, 2019, 7:14 PM · The question of 144 is academic, if you can't play it perfectly at 132 or 138, David.
Edited: July 7, 2019, 1:59 AM · Lydia Leong

I have to know what to practice and what to play:

Let's say I'll practice it in 136 to good level, and also in 144 to less good,
What to play in the audition?

If I'll play first the 136, even if it will be good, they may not ask to play it faster and dismiss me because i was too slow.

In this audition i could practice it slower, but i thought that i have just 1 chance and that's why i should play it fast. For sure in 144.

They didn't ask for slower version and probably dismissed based on the first, "too fast" version. that may be the case in the opposite way too.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 2:12 AM · In average piece it is clear - it is preferred to play slowly but clear, because you don't have specific tempo,
In this piece the tempo is everything - the 144!, Is the big thing. If you will play it in 125 but very clear it is irrelevant and you will be dismissed. Maybe even 132.
July 7, 2019, 2:14 AM · For sure 144 isn't the average speed of the winners in Auditions, anyone knows what it is?
July 7, 2019, 2:37 AM · Play it like Nathan Cole and you'll get in, if your other excerpts are up to the same fine standard.


Edited: July 7, 2019, 2:55 AM · Ji

Nathan cole started in 144 and then reduced it in some places to 138,
That means that if I'll work with metronome i should work on 138!.

Probably i can get a good and clear level with a lot of practice in about 135-136 for the whole piece, is it enough?

July 7, 2019, 2:54 AM · David, grow up!

The fact that Mr. Cole slows slightly is nothing compared with his clear articulation with a beautifully controlled saltellato, even in the higher passages.

Watch his (and others') practice videos, and start practicing properly and stop whining!

Edited: July 7, 2019, 3:06 AM · Adrian Heath

I'm the one that needs to grow up?
I told from the beginning, even before the audition, that it is too fast for clear playing, we had a discussion with over 150 comments about it here,
And people said - no!. It must be fast.
And now you telling me that the speed is secondary thing?


Everyone slows down in this places, me too in the video above.
But you can't assume that you will slow down there when you practice it.
You have to practice with a speed that will sound great all over it.
If it is 144, you have to practice it in 144 om the metronome, no?

July 7, 2019, 3:08 AM · Adrian Heath
I'll ask that way -
What to put on the metronome when i practice the Scherzo?
July 7, 2019, 3:11 AM · 139
July 7, 2019, 3:18 AM · David, get it good at 130 or less, and you will have the reflexes to increase in small steps with the same quality week by week to 144.

144 is not too fast for clean playing if you build up gradually.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 3:38 AM · JI

Ok. Let's say it is 138/139.
That is the max speed that can be played fully! Realistically In high quality with metronome.

That means that that's what should be written! . 138 and not 144.
No?

That also means that
You can't dismiss someone in Audition for being too slow if he played it fully in 138,for example, or little bit slower.

July 7, 2019, 3:43 AM · Adrian Heath
You don't see people on YouTube play it in 144, you want to tell me they dobit in Auditions?

I heard some other players practice the Scherzo in the audition - noone played in 144.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 3:55 AM · "You don't see people on YouTube play it in 144, you want to tell me they do it in Auditions?"

Yes.

Why not start proper practice rather than wasting time denying everything we tell you!

July 7, 2019, 4:07 AM · Adrian Heath

The only thing i believe in without seeing is God!;)))

July 7, 2019, 4:17 AM · Then why ask our advice?
Edited: July 7, 2019, 4:26 AM · This piece is very significant piece, it is played probably in every Audition, or most of them, sobit is very important thing to know. Whatvto practice and how.

If the reasonable speed is 138 or less it should be clear. Why to spend a lot of hours on polishing in 144 if it isn't realistic?

People here probably know what is the realistic speed, and maybe also it should be changed officially to 138 speed in auditions.
In this case for example 130 in Audition might not be considered very slow.

July 7, 2019, 4:32 AM · Those who can do it well at 144 will beat you every time!

And when the conductor takes it more slowly, you'll be able to do it eyes closed.. (as in prayer?)

Edited: July 7, 2019, 4:33 AM · And stop blaming everyone else for your own shortcomings!
Edited: July 7, 2019, 4:40 AM · And work on your non-existent saltellato..
Edited: July 7, 2019, 4:42 AM · Adrian Heath
Why yo argue?
Please show me some video of of the Scherzo played fully! In 144 well,
Otherwise - if Nathan Cole's video is agreed being the well played i will assume it is 138.

That's how I'll treat it from now probably - as realistically 138. Not 144.

July 7, 2019, 4:46 AM · I'm now beginning to see why people might get annoyed...

Then just work at playing it at 138 as well as Nathan Cole played it. When you can do that return back to the question of whether or not it is possible to play it at 144 - you will definitely be closer to that goal at that point.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 5:05 AM · I was wondering why this thread keeps popping up until I finally clicked it and saw the OP...

not again please...

You keep challenging people to play that bit in 144, with hardly any notes in tune, what's the point? If intonation doesn't count, I can play much faster than 144.

People plays it at 138, as you assumed, WITH intonation! Meaning they are playing the exact tuning of EACH notes written out on the score.

If you ignore the intonation issue, that literally means you are not playing what was written on paper, you are just randomly making noise.

Intonation COUNTS. It's music, it's sound, match each frequency please.

July 7, 2019, 5:34 AM · But he thinks his intonation is OK, and that we are out to tyrannise him.
Edited: July 7, 2019, 5:48 AM · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43KHVMMHwWM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hFufPgTRfI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_kcJmqTt3A

Often over 144....

...and saltellato....


...and in tune....

July 7, 2019, 6:19 AM · Adrian Heath

The first one is the only one that i can say was about 144. Occasionally even faster.
And I'm not sure thet he played much better than me in 160!!.

I don't feel he played it stable as Nathan cole, you see it in the middle, when he stumbles a little bit.
The idea is to play in a tempo with high probability not to make a mistake in live audition. When you feel control over the playing.

July 7, 2019, 6:20 AM · "And I'm not sure that he played much better than me in 160!!."

We haven't the same ears!

Edited: July 7, 2019, 6:31 AM · I want to point out that the two violinists above who use their real names (the second and third videos) are both section players in orchestras nowhere near the stature of the Israel Philharmonic.

That last video, by the way, is a steady 144 except for a few moments where a slightly more relaxed tempo is musically appropriate for effect -- she's not slowing down the hardest parts in the slightest.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 6:31 AM · Adrian Heath

I always say that i do "The fastest in the world" versions on youtube!!,on Recordings!!,
That this is different from live playing.
And in live performance, unless it is a stunt i will play slower, not to take chances.

In this piece only live! Performance that is relevant (auditions).

The discussion here isn't even about my version (I don't agree it was so bad),
The discussion is about the realistic good level speed when you control fully the speed and have low probability of stumbling.
If you, after 5-6 takes can get a version that is clear enough in 144 it doesn't mean it is a normal speed.

July 7, 2019, 6:34 AM · You were the one who asked for YouTube videos. Stop moving the goalposts.

Also, you have to be tone-deaf not to hear the vast difference between your playing and all three of those videos.

July 7, 2019, 6:51 AM · Andrew Hsieh
The last one played it very well and controled well everything, but It wasn't 144 in more than few moments.i think that most of the piece was in 141-140.
Edited: July 7, 2019, 6:57 AM · I watched it with a metronome running! It was 144 for most of the excerpt.

Also, if you look up her name you find that she's a tutti player in part-time orchestras. The professional world is that competitive.

July 7, 2019, 7:01 AM · David, I bow down before you resilient bad faith..
you should go into politics!
Edited: July 7, 2019, 7:04 AM · Andrew Hsieh
I'm not competing here with anyone.
I'm trying to figure out what is the realistic speed you can play it good, controled level in live performance.
From what I've seen so far this is probably 138.

What the point to spend hours on hours trying to make it perfect with metronome on 144? And then come with less good version anyway, If it isn't realistic? And probably everyone in the audition will play it slower.

July 7, 2019, 7:54 AM · The audition is a competition - play at 144 perfectly and you have better odds at getting picked.

Many people can do it and so could you if you put the hours in, that simple.

July 7, 2019, 8:52 AM · Auditions are competitions for musicianship, not absolute tempo. Thinking about an audition in such a single-minded way will not impress anyone. Whatever you do has to sound like music.

The original video at the top of this thread is not really off the string, especially the separate 8th notes. There are no dynamics. The small ritards at the ends of phrases before the 8th notes are not convincing.

This obsession with sheer speed at the expense of other musical aspects is often a trait of teenage students (usually boys). I don't mean to criticize teenagers, but as a teacher, I've seen it enough to see it as a stage in musical development.

David, your fetishization of virtuosity is holding back your development as a musician.


July 7, 2019, 9:28 AM · Scott Cole
Why everyone blaming me and not Schumann?
He wrote 144.
I prefer it much slower to play comfortably. In about 120.

Noone who plays it in this speeds really plays it "Musically":
I don't see top virtuoso plays it in carngie hall for Encore in speed that is over 130 if he will be asked to play it for encore. Because it won't be musical enough or too risky for solo performance in higer speed.

I think that i prooved i can play nice something fast (Excerpt! That checks speed):

Also - "The fastest in the world versions" that i do are more a stunt! Then music. You can't judge my Musicality by them.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 10:14 AM · Well OK. I'll give it another try.

David:

You should be able to play your Schumann scherzo cleanly, in tune, without flaw, at 160 or even 180. Why not? After all, this is not the fastest piece in the literature. 144 is not a particularly fast tempo to navigate in *technical* terms.

When Nathan Cole and others say to not play at 144 for an audition, they are not saying they cannot play it well at 144. They are saying that Schumann wrote the piece to be played by 30 or so violinists *at the same time* and that one lone violinist playing it well at 144 sounds like silly cartoon music.

You haven't yet managed to play the excerpt well even one time - ever, in your life. This is a practice mistake that a lot of amateurs make. So instead of continuing to churn out sloppy repetitions that are faster than you can manage, find a tempo where you can play the whole thing well. It might be 120, it might be 60, it might be 40! You will know you have the right tempo because it will (A) start to sound good and (B) *feel* easy to play.

Once you can do that, then start playing with different speeds. You can start slow and click up by notches, like Mary Ellen - one of the best ways. You can also double, then double again (60, 120, 240). Or start at a fast tempo and work your way down by notches until you get to your comfortable tempo. The important thing is that, even when you attempting an IMPOSSIBLE SPEED like 240, that you don't *change how you play.* Your goal is to take the comfortable speed and speed it up or slow it down, but not play differently - like watching a video on fast forward or slow motion. If you find a tempo that you can't play the same as your comfortable one, go back to the comfortable one. Flip back and forth between comfortable and uncomfortable - but not too many times. Just playing it poorly over and over again won't make it better, magically. Instead, go halfway. For example, let's say you play it easily at 80, and then you try 160 - but you can't manage 160. Go back to 80 again, and then try 120. Maybe 120 still is too fast for you! Go back to 80, and then try 100.

It's like building a collection. At first you only have one or a few nice specimens. But eventually you will collect the whole set! (i.e., be able to play it well at any tempo)

BTW, since you're into fastest in the world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fijI_fyRwik

P.S. I would add that, while playing as fast as Kavakos does is kind of a "stunt," he also displays a high degree of musicality.

July 7, 2019, 11:10 AM · For what's it worth, I found your advice very illuminating.

The Kavakos clip is absolutely astounding.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 11:27 AM · Mr. Krakovich, could you please humor us: let’s put the issue of speed and tempo aside, and let’s forget the title of this thread for a moment. I’d love for you to try the following:

Play just the first 12 bars (plus pickup) slowly, about 16th note = 72, using Martelé strokes around the lower-middle section of the bow.

Here are the goals: stop the bow after each note, making sure you move the left hand fingers before you move the bow and play another note.

Natural notes (G,D,A,E and their perfect 4ths and 5ths) need to make your open strings ring, half steps need to be narrow and whole steps need to be wide, minor thirds need to have the same distance and quality within the diminshed 7th chords.

Each note should have a crisp attack in the beginning and should have a full, ringing quality. String cross angles need to be small and rounded, and coordinated with the shifts.

After that, play the same passage in detaché at the same tempo, 16th note = 72, and dial it up gradually to 16th note = 120.

Could you please try this for about 45 minutes? We’d love to see a video of you doing the detaché at 16th note = 120 at the end of the session.

Thank you!

Edited: July 7, 2019, 11:39 AM · Nate B, ok - i take the challenge - I'll work on that and record a clear version.

I thought that the Midsummer night's dream was a good proof for that.

July 7, 2019, 12:47 PM · "You were the one who asked for YouTube videos. Stop moving the goalposts."

Surely everybody is aware by now that this is completely unserious. DK doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting in Israel's best orchestra, nor in most other orchestra's. He's perfectly aware of this.

What he's into is making 'winning' threads on violinst com. Who knows, maybe he's doing the same in some other online group, say, about politics.

DK's goal is to use as much of your time as is possible, create the longest and biggest threads and when he's done he'll be back with an equally frustrating topic. Your frustration is his pleasure.

July 7, 2019, 1:03 PM · Some of the advice is nevertheless very interesting.

The issue with David's Midsummer Night's scherzo is to me, the incorrect character of the spiccato, which must be crisp, light, and playful.

July 7, 2019, 1:17 PM · Hey Herman,

Well there's a chance he's serious and not just pulling our legs. Besides, it's the weekend and I have a cold, so it's not like there's something better/more entertaining to do. :)

David, that's great! I look forward to seeing your results. For best effect, spend a couple of weeks on this project - don't just knock all the steps off in one afternoon. I think Lorenzo Raval's comments a few posts back can serve as an excellent guide to what constitutes good playing at slow speed. I would add that every note must speak cleanly with no noise before, after, or during. Also, even at slow speeds, you should sketch the musical shape - show the phrases, make the dynamic contrasts, play (but don't overdo) the accents and sforzandi, etc.

Good luck!

Edited: July 7, 2019, 1:52 PM · @Herman West
You described it as if I'm the "Doctor Evil" of the violinists;)))

"DK's goal is to use as much of your time as is possible, create the longest and biggest threads and when he's done he'll be back with an equally frustrating topic. Your frustration is his pleasure."

July 7, 2019, 2:42 PM · "Why everyone blaming me and not Schumann?
He wrote 144."

Why do you keep insisting that Schumann himself specified 144? Can you prove it?

It's like being trapped in that Monte Python skit about a guy looking for an argument.

July 7, 2019, 3:12 PM · No it isn't!
Edited: July 7, 2019, 10:35 PM · Schumann marked 138. Source: https://www.henle.de/us/music-column/schuhmann-jahr-2010/schumann-anniversary-2010/schumanns-metronome-markings-a-bother-or-a-benefit/

EDIT: Oops. It's 144. (138 is for the first symphony.)

July 7, 2019, 4:05 PM · Lydia, thanks. Finally, someone actually does a bit of research instead of taking a marking as gospel.
July 7, 2019, 4:54 PM · Why even bother? He doesn't play all of the notes and is still yapping about speed and thinking it sounds clean "enough". I struggle to imagine a more tedious or inane perspective.
July 7, 2019, 5:23 PM · What am I missing? The Henle link goes to a list, and on p9 I see 144.

https://www.henle.de/us/music-column/schuhmann-jahr-2010/schumann-anniversary-2010/schumanns-metronome-markings-a-bother-or-a-benefit/index.php?rex_media_type=tinymcewysiwyg&rex_media_file=metronom_markings_schumann.pdf

Edited: July 7, 2019, 5:27 PM · There is a link on that page that takes you to the Schumann markings. It lists for Symphony No 2 scherzo a 138 marking. If I were not writing from a cellphone I would cut and paste. It is possible I am misreading from my tiny screen.
July 7, 2019, 6:28 PM · @Lydia Leong

The information you gave now is astonishing!. May be world changing! In this area. I'm not Exaggerating.

I think it deserves a separate thread about it - (about the Schumann markings) that i call you to start:

Till now all the things i said about the Scherzo were based on my personal feeling, that people could easily dismiss,

But here you give us information about known! Debate about these speed markings by professionals, including astonishing information and known Assamption that it might be because his metronome was broken. (That Schumann wife approved! For some time. Unbelievable)

Even if it was Schumann that wrote these markings, but the fact that this speeds criticized very seriously by professionals changes everything.

It is an issue that can change the world! In its area - because the Scherzo is played in all auditions
Worldwide, and if it isn't 144 but 138 for example, it changes things dramatically:

I, for example, probably blew my chance in an audition to Orchestra because of the 144, and someone here said that the Scherzo was the reason
He decided notvto go to professional
Playing.
This is very serious issue that
Effects thousands of people every day.

July 7, 2019, 6:39 PM · I'm reading the list of markings. It says 144.

You may have been looking at the manuscript metronome markings ("STIMMEN") for Symphony No. 1, where the scherzo is listed as an absurdly fast 138. It was reduced to 88 ("PARTITUR") in the first published edition. Some scholars believe that manuscript actually reads 108 but it is hard to tell in Schumann's handwriting.

July 7, 2019, 6:52 PM · Also, if Schumann intended a slower tempo, that wouldn't make it any easier to get into a professional orchestra. The number of seats is not going to increase because of it. There will still be a lot more aspiring pros than orchestra seats, and orchestras will still be looking to fill them with the best players they can find.

There are dozens of videos of the excerpt on YouTube, ranging in tempo from students and amateurs playing at 120-126 to pros playing in the 132-144 range, all sounding cleaner, more in tune, and more musical than you did at 120. Tempo is not what's keeping you out of the Israel Philharmonic.

For that matter, even your Mozart is not professional quality. It would most likely be considered acceptable for a high-level community orchestra, but not for a regional (part-time) professional orchestra. I stand by my statement that even some community orchestras would find your Schumann unacceptable because of serious intonation problems and poor bow control even at 120.

Edited: July 7, 2019, 7:20 PM · Mr. Krakovich, I encourage you to put aside the issue of tempo and speed for a moment, and consider my advice for practicing which I outlined above. Put in some mindful, attentive work focusing on some clearly defined goals and I promise you, you’re only 45 minutes away from seeing a discernible improvement in your playing.

Improve your intonation, refine your coordination, then we can proceed to practicing in rhythms, and incorporating the off-the-string strokes.

Then I’m happy to talk about speed and tempo.

July 7, 2019, 10:02 PM · And learn spicatto.
July 7, 2019, 11:43 PM · The Kavakos Paganini 5 stunt is amazing. You can still hear the harmonies brought out. And if you run the video at one-quarter speed, every note is there, in tune, precisely placed.
July 7, 2019, 11:57 PM · I wonder if a perfectly controlled sautille at that speed (the Kavakos video) is actually more difficult than the original bowing.
July 8, 2019, 1:07 AM · "You described it as if I'm the "Doctor Evil" of the violinists;)))"

Not really, just as a regular phenom on online groups. The attention stunt man.

July 8, 2019, 1:45 AM · One more try....
David, whatever Schumann wrote on his score (we don't know how he conducted the music in concerts) the selection panel can ask for a higher speed to be sure that the future orchestral member will not be playing too close to his own limits, even on a bad day.

July 8, 2019, 2:13 AM · Andrew Hsieh

The Schumann Scherzo isn't hard piece, i agree about it, you can't compare it to Paganini caprice for example -

What makes it hard is the speed - and it isn't even so hard as it is uncomfortable! And almost impossible to be played clearly and stable solo in 144!.

When i told it just based on my personal trying to play it, you could say "it is David Krakovich lackn of technical ability"

But If there's a professional!!! Dilemma about this speed, to the extent that professionals wonder if it is even accurate or was written by Schumann it is a very big issue.

July 8, 2019, 2:19 AM · The Scherzo isn't just another piece - it is played in all auditions, and it means that every day thousands of people all over spend hours trying to make it 144,
And fail in Auditions because of it.
This is hugh! Issue. This is probably The most "dangerous" piece in Auditions.
Edited: July 8, 2019, 2:35 AM · Andrew Hsieh

About the best players in Orchestras-

This is another related issue:
Let's say there's some violinist that plays very well in "Normal" speeds, but can't play well the Scherzo - he will fail!! In Audition, to someone that might be less good but that can play all! Pieces, including the scherzo.
Right?

The Orchestra can't take someone to play if he can't play everything!.
Even if he plays better the "Normal Speed" pieces.

And their measure to everything fast is the scherzo!-
It means they might take less good violinist because of the scherzo!.

If there's so hugh known problem about this piece, it changes a lot.

Edited: July 8, 2019, 2:42 AM · "And fail in Auditions because of it."

No David, your thousands of applicants will have practiced to play it well at the imposed speed. If they fail, its because others are even better!


"It means they might take less good violinist because of the scherzo!."

What utter rubbish!! There are easier pieces in the same audition which need other qualities.

Edited: July 8, 2019, 2:54 AM · Adrian Heath

It is unbelievable speed!:
Take for example the Caprice no.16 by Paganini that also based on 1/16 and much harder technically - it is play by virtuoso in about 1 quarter = 110! i think. The Scherzo is 1= 144!!!.

Even the Scardaz - without strings switches played in higher speeds in about 1 quarter= 140-150.

Edited: July 8, 2019, 3:04 AM · With the Scherzo the average orchesra asks average violinist to play it almost in the speed of david Garett in the Czardas, that is much easier in fast speeds because it doesn't involve string switchs and positions changes:

Edited: July 8, 2019, 3:15 AM · So, start practicing faster string crossings and stop snivelling!

July 8, 2019, 3:15 AM · Any tips or pieces for learning the saltellato required in this piece?
Edited: July 8, 2019, 3:29 AM · Adrian Heath
You hear what you say?

If David Garett!!!, Top virtuoso, World Guinness recordesman, when plays the Czardas solo does it in about 150, you think that the average player can get good enough and stable level for solo Audition in 144?? For much harder piece?

The Scherzo is easier them caprice no.16 , but it is more close ti the Caprice no.16 by Paganini, with the strings switches and positions,
And the caprice played by top virtuoso in abou 1=110.
Here you want 1=144!!!.

I personally can't see myself playing it solo in good and stable level in more than 1=125. And i can play very fast - i think we can all agree about it.

Edited: July 8, 2019, 6:12 AM · JI,

I find it helps to think of the down bows and let the the up bow return just "happen". Taka, taka, rather than tak-tak, tak-tak. This can give a "measured" tremolo. Then slighty turn the wrist so that the hand motion is more downawards into the string, and find the part of the bow that bounces at the required tempo. The hand moves a little more than the forearm.

To coordinate the two hands, we can practice in 2-note fragments, 2 1/16ths followed by a 1/8th rest. Then join up 4 1/16ths, then 8 1/16ths with 1/4 rest between.

In David's case, we can wonder about the responsiveness of his violin, but no-one has yet brought up that of his bow.

On a violin, my saltellato occasionally sounds like a string of pearls; on the slower-sounding viola, more often like a pile of rabbit's droppings!

So I have some sympathy for his poor tone..

July 8, 2019, 3:43 AM · "And i can play very fast - i think we can all agree about it."

Indeed!
So now you can apply your incredible reflexes to some proper practice!

Edited: July 8, 2019, 3:55 AM · Adrian Heath

I took the challenge, and now I'm practicing to play "musical version" of the Scherzo and I'll record it soon - I don't even know what is the speed exactly now, and i think mainly about playing it well. When you can hear well every note and it is very stable and could be played in live performance.

But I'm sure it isn't 144!!, Not even 140!. And I don't see it becoming in that speeds.

July 8, 2019, 4:00 AM · Good news!

Check Lorenzo's excellent post, and my more modest one for JI, for effective practice strategies for those with limited time.....

July 8, 2019, 6:04 AM · Adrian, thank you for taking the time, I'll try it first thing when I get home from work!
Edited: July 8, 2019, 7:44 AM · I have a theory about what keeps happening in these threads. Normally children learn the violin gradually. Their ears develop along with their facility. I think what has happened is that David's facility somehow advanced much faster. That's a natural gift, to be sure. But while he is able to move his LH fingers very fast, he is not able to really hear what he is playing. I think this may be what some others were getting at with their comments about "wasted skill" and such. It's not really wasted skill -- it's just skill lacking an as-yet-not-as-well-developed listening counterpart.

That's why he thinks his fast passage-work is "not so bad" and "pretty good" while others, whose facility might not be any better but whose hearing developed along with their less natively-gifted finger speed, can hear the flaws in his playing. I do not have this kind of facility, nor can I really hear the individual intonation flaws in David's Schumann excerpt, because I'm not far enough along on that dual learning curve. What I can hear is that his pitches are not as clearly defined, the harmonic sense of his excerpt seems ambiguous, and he shows less dynamics and phrasing than some of the pros whose YouTube videos were linked. But if you asked me which individual notes were responsible for these problems, I wouldn't be able to say.

In my own playing, as I try to increase the speed of fast passages, what I start to lose, with each advance of the metronome, is the ability to force my fingers to create the larger whole steps and smaller half-steps that scale-like passages pretty much universally demand. That is when I have to slow down (again!) and remind myself where my stops are really supposed to be. Obviously this is a great concern and I work on a lot of studies to hopefully fix it and I think gradually it's working.

July 8, 2019, 9:32 AM · David K wrote:

"If David Garett!!!, Top virtuoso, World Guinness recordesman, when plays the Czardas solo does it in about 150, you think that the average player can get good enough and stable level for solo Audition in 144?? For much harder piece?"

Well you have a point there. The ostensible purpose of the audition process is to weed out the average players and locate the outstanding ones.

The 20 or so major orchestras in north America are composed of players who could, at least at one point in their lives, knock a high-speed Schumann scherzo out of the park. Many of those players can still do it - without practice, without warm-up - as a point of professional pride.

July 8, 2019, 9:35 AM · Paul, indeed, intonation is a subtle, complex affair.

There was a researcher who found his wife's perfect (=absolute) pitch varied in accuracy over a monthly interval, and assumed it was hormones..
She reversed the roles and his ear varied in a similar manner. It seems more akin to the non-synchronous bio-rhythms of intellect, emotions and physical skills.

You mention harmony. I have been so lucky: starting the viola at nearly 15yo, but with a background of piano (harmony + an activated left hand) and the Baptist Hymn Book (good harmony again, and part singing) and later, a choral scholarship and the English hymnal..

All this plus a parental LP collection "nourished" my inner ear, so I already imagined good intonation before starting the viola. In threads on intonation, I add the importance of frequent listening to advice about resonant sweet-spots, Tartini tones etc.

If I don't know the piece I can't always say which notes are out of tune, but I know something is wrong; if I know the piece, I know exactly what is wrong, just like an audition committee!

Suzuki suggested somewhere 1/3 listening, 1/3 review, and 1/3 progress.
At least 2/3 of the practice is in tune....

Edited: July 8, 2019, 9:55 AM · Paul, one thing that might help you: In listening to things at very high speed, I am listening to the harmonic content as much as, and perhaps more than, the individual notes. David's intonation is sufficiently off that he's effectively playing wrong notes that change the chord. Good intonation is effectively built on the chord as opposed to individual pitches; the chord is what determines what tempered intonation sounds like.

When I was a teenager, my teacher (who spent decades in the Philadelphia Orchestra starting in the Ormandy era), made me do Schradieck exercises with a metronome, including the string crossing ones, until I could do them at quarter = 216, perfectly evenly and without flaw. I also spent a lot of time on Paganini #5, with the spiccatto bowing rather than the ricochet, specifically focused on playing things like that in high speed with exact evenness and perfectly prepared string-crossings.

You learn to play (and listen) at that speed by drilling finger patterns and string-crossings daily with a metronome, starting very slowly (at sixteenth = 60), being incredibly strict with yourself about clarity, evenness and precise finger placement (every recurring note must be placed in an absolutely identical position), and string crossings that have precise economy of motion and fully controlled timing, and then only moving the metronome up a notch when it's perfect. You are effectively myelinating the appropriate neural connections through that drill, literally helping your brain conduct signals to your fingers at higher velocity, as well as chunking the patterns of the instructions.

Some people are lucky enough to have fast nerve conduction; I'm one of them, and I'd bet that David is too. (An EMG test will reveal this.) But that pure velocity only takes you so far; professional-level technique also requires you to have perfect control over when exactly a motion happens and precisely what that motion is.

One of the nice things about the Scherzo is that it's an excerpt that you can just drill. I figure it's one that most people can nail if they simply work on it hard enough.

When I last bought a bow, the opening of the Scherzo was one of my first tests for every bow I tried; I wanted a bow for which the bounce felt essentially 100% effortless -- where it just came off the string entirely evenly and was easily controlled on a string-crossing.

Edited: July 8, 2019, 10:31 AM · Generally I do not struggle comprehending harmony, as I also was brought up learning the piano from a very young age (somewhere between 3 and 4). I agree with Lydia that the harmonic content is what really matters in a very fast passage like that, and when it is well played I can hear that, and when it's not well-played the harmony is less clear. But again, I can't pin that on individual notes in the case of David's playing -- maybe I could if I slowed it down in software, but I have not tried to do that.

@Lydia, whenever I have a new piece or study I do what you are recommending except I usually start at 40 (and with each note getting one click regardless of its printed time value), which I learned how to do by watching Sassmannshaus's videos. That's very time-consuming, as you know, so usually I only do the passages that are hard. If I find, upon listening to myself play, that I was wrong about what was "hard" then I go back. Probably that is not what Prof. Sassmannshaus would want, but unlike his teenage prodigies, I do not have 4+ hours per day to work on violin. I have to make compromises for the sake of efficiency.

The Scherzo and other orchestral excerpts are not the only thing that "you can just drill". Many times I have suggested that the same can be done with anything in the Bach S&P that says "Double" at the top.

July 8, 2019, 10:59 AM · The time invested in the Schradieck drill was worthwhile in that it made everything else easier to play. I not-infrequently find places in repertoire these days where I curse myself for not having the patience to practice like that any longer, because I wouldn't be investing time in drilling evenness in repertoire if I had that kind of automatic control over my fingers. It really reinforces the brain-finger connections.

Occasionally I end up spending a couple of hours on a weekend doing an exercise out of Basics, and then as a result some skill is effectively returned to my mental toolbox.

July 8, 2019, 11:57 AM · What you're saying is that I should stop being such a whining lazy-ass. Hahahaha ... I get it! LOL
July 8, 2019, 12:07 PM · I am merely suggesting that sometimes time invested up front pays forward. :-)
July 8, 2019, 12:56 PM · Schradieck is indeed a tonic (in the medicine sense).
July 8, 2019, 3:28 PM · Come on, Herman, it's 4:30 PM here, and you had to say "tonic" ....
July 8, 2019, 7:12 PM · A little quality control on those juniper berries?
July 9, 2019, 1:53 AM · David - instead of trying to be fastest, why dont you see in what tempo you can play as good or better as Nathan Coles video, no matter the tempo, and upload that? (As good or better as in rhythm, intonation, articulation, frasings etc)
Edited: July 9, 2019, 5:29 AM · Wow, been a while, I see we are still riding the horse, aren't we?

I've just noticed that David Krakovich behaves exactly like a kid. I mean with that, no matter how bad he normally and usually plays, scratchy, out of tune, horrible tone... he keeps playing as if it was everything OK. That typical behavior kids have when playing the violin in the first years. The tone is so bad, everything is out of tune, scratchy... but they keep playing as if it was sounding all fine. I've never seen that in an adult.

I agree with some users up there, David's playing so fast it definitely should be called "Schmann!", way faster, but you have to yell it. Also, I agree with Paul, his camera and microphone are modifying the tone and intonation, it's not fair. David, you may call some top professionals out there and ask them if they can give you some spare cameras and microphones they use so you don't play out of tune.

Anyways, besides all the little critics, I think it's one of the GREATEST, FASTEST performances I've ever seen. I'm impressed, I am indeed so impressed I just missed my son's birth just to listen to this all night long. Worst father of the year, I know, but best musician fan of the year, how about that?

David, any update about when you're gonna start touring around the globe?
Can't wait to see become real a David Krakovich's "Fastest tour in the world". You should travel in freaking war ultrasonic planes, shooting turtles and snails from the sky, those stupid slow pieces of ****.
Conductor: David, we were waiting for you this evening, what happened? The concert got cancelled!
David: Yes, I know, but I'm the fastest traveler in the world, I arrived so fast it was yesterday when I got to the hall. I'm traveling so fast I'm missing all my dates due to different time zones or even days. But don't worry, I'll come back next year. It's probably the came I take with me, it gets me out of sync.

The Israel orchestra probably accepted him because they wanted to see if he was for real. Can't imagine what they thought when they listened to David after some professional players applying. An X factor experience I guess.

July 9, 2019, 9:59 AM · I figure that if you yell SCHUMANN! for this, it should be the same way you'd yell LEEEROY JENKINS!
July 9, 2019, 1:12 PM · Tim, I think that's a bit subtle..
And as with Donald Dunk, we have to keep it brief.
(OK, none of my business, we Brits have our own Boris Dunk..)
July 9, 2019, 2:19 PM · Alright, who's ready for the 3-hour Scherzo challenge? First we need a benchmark player....
July 9, 2019, 3:04 PM · sorry, no can do - I've already put in 100+ hours on this one
July 9, 2019, 3:24 PM · Three-hour challenge doesn't make sense in this case. It's one of those things which is a marathon, not a sprint.
July 9, 2019, 4:50 PM · Lol Lydia, the 3-hour challenge didn't exactly make sense for the paganini either. Wasn't that the whole point of the challenge? To take something that can't possibly be mastered in the time frame and attempt it? Certainly, anything played with a high level of quality should be considered a marathon and not a sprint. There's nothing magical about the Schumann that differentiates it from anything else with a lot of awkward, fast 16th notes, except that it's standard audition repertoire so perhaps our standards for it are naturally higher.

I had to point that out, but of course I don't expect anyone here to actually do a 3-hour challenge anyways, whether it's schumann, paganini, or kreutzer.

Plus, anyone who even knows *about* the scherzo has likely already put in way more than 3 hours into it, as Irene pointed out.


How about the Scherzo + 1 octave challenge? Lol

July 9, 2019, 5:01 PM · A 3 hour Schumann scherzo would be a good son file challenge.
July 9, 2019, 5:06 PM · I think the etude challenges (particularly the Paganini ones) are basically "how much can you learn in a short period of time, making some compromises", which might be a generally accelerated way to learn that thing. They're interesting thought-exercises in prioritization.

With the Schumann, there's no real acceleration. Only tedium.

July 9, 2019, 5:19 PM · What is the world record for the number of responses on violinist.com?
Can we get this one up to at least 500? PLEASE TAKE THE CHALLENGE!
July 9, 2019, 6:11 PM · ok
July 9, 2019, 7:57 PM · Getting to 500 is only half the game. The other half is how quickly it can be done.
July 9, 2019, 8:07 PM · Paul, the answer to that is VERY FAST. Indeed, 500 posts will be reached FASTEST in the world.
July 9, 2019, 10:38 PM · 500th poster makes a deal with devil
July 10, 2019, 12:19 AM · I want to get to 500 by typing 144 words per minute, but since I'm starting at 40, that's going to take awhile.
July 10, 2019, 12:19 AM · I want to get to 500 by typing 144 words per minute, but since I'm starting at 40, that's going to take awhile.
July 10, 2019, 3:54 AM · Did you mean 499 the second time?

Er, no, wait a minute..

July 10, 2019, 4:14 AM · Long ways to go yet. In October 2017 "The Paris double-blind experiment" went over 1000 posts. I was the OP but rather lost interest
July 10, 2019, 4:23 AM · C,mon. Let's go for it!
July 10, 2019, 4:30 AM · Perhaps we could write faster by leaving out some of the letters, or the spaces between words.
Then no-one would notice the mistakes.
Or would they?
July 10, 2019, 4:38 AM · Over 2k posts Steve? How long did that thread go on?
Edited: July 10, 2019, 5:20 AM · You can find it in the archives. It actually went to 1128 posts between Sep 28 and Oct 26 2017. Even towards the end some sense was being written occasionally!
July 10, 2019, 7:03 AM · Mary Ellen, you can improve your speed typing by practicing with dotted rhythms ...
July 10, 2019, 7:21 AM · For every reply I write I try to learn one bar of the scherzo
July 10, 2019, 10:01 AM · Seems like a waste of electrons to me.
Edited: July 12, 2019, 2:52 PM · Sorry (or perhaps not) to rain on this parade, but be aware that if anyone is intent on a world record for a discussion with the most number of posts then you'd better get moving because discussions now get archived after about a month!


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Shar Music

Yamaha Violin Finder
Yamaha Violin Finder

Pirastro Strings
Pirastro Strings

Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases
Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases

Pockestra
Pockestra

Vsound: Electric Violin Pedal

Bay Fine Strings Violin Shop

Bobelock Cases

Fiddlerman.com

Fiddlershop

Los Angeles Violin Shop

Nazareth Gevorkian Violins

Potter Violins

Pro-Am Strings

Violin Lab

Wangbow Violin Bow Workshop

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