I soon going to try my first audition to Professional Orchestra,
And I've seen this Schubert Schertzo excerpt from the 2nd symphony everywhere.
I've read the previous threads here about it,
And it seems that it is a common problem so i want your opinion:
When i learned classical music at school i remember that the teacher said that composers took their works to known violinists to check if they are "possible" and "comfortable" and then made changes.
Maybe i should just practice it more, but
I feel that in this piece it wasn't the case.
Because when you play for example Paganini caprices or other fast pieces , (and i played and recorded some pieces in the fastest speeds!) You feel that violinist wrote them, they are hard but comfortable! - Paganini carprices for example. Or the Czardas by Monti.
In this case i feel that it simply isn't comfortable and weird!, To play in 144!. Something like that. For both hands.
It wasn't a big deal if it wasn't a "must" piece in auditions.
I don't feel it is "hard" as it is "uncomfortable".
What do you think?
There's no "t" in Scherzo.
I think you'll find that a great many orchestral parts are somewhat non-idiomatic on the violin. I find Dvorak, for example, usually very awkward.
Yes, I don't think you're alone in feeling this way. There's no magic solution - just diligent, careful, intelligent practice.
This is a coordination exercise. It's testing if you can be perfectly in tune, and have the left hand perfectly timed with the right, and maintain a fully-controlled spiccato in a situation with lots of string crossings.
Does anyone know if
Sorry, Schumann and Mendelssohn were friends. You're not getting out of playing this scherzo.
You should definitely go for it! Audition committees love it when new hires bring politics into their audition requirements.
Also the scherzo was written by Schumann not Schubert.
I'm not sure how Mark is an expert, due to his age. I wonder how many times he's actually played the piece in a professional audition.
I thought the tempo was at the bottom end of the acceptable range. I agree with Scott's tempo suggestion of 126-132.
I apologize for responding I’m not speaking from experience but from what I’ve been told I’ve deleted my response and will leave it to people better suited to answer. But every audition is looking for good tone, intonation and the capacity to play at speed.
David, the speed is slow, but even at that speed, it's not where it needs to be. The intonation on your YouTube audio is sufficiently far off that the pitches aren't always clear. The spiccato has to be clean, without any of the rough edges audible in that clip. And when the bow comes off the string at the end of a phrase there has to be resonance, ring, and a little vibrato.
I think that whatever tempo you decide upon, you want to leave the committee with the impression that it's an artistic decision, rather than one that reflects a limitation in your ability. So with that in mind, it seems important that it be within the tempo range that orchestras typically use, right? (Just my 2 cents; I am not sure where that range bottoms out.)
120 is too slow.
Mary Ellen Goree
Shlomo Mintz said that when Paganini wrote his caprices he first wrote impossible things and then spent months and even years to practice them (and i guess also to change things, to adjust the pieces to high level playing).
With practice, awkward-looking music becomes less awkward.
David, you're getting string noise and not-quite-clean edges on your notes, which is not the fault of your violin. It's a left/right hand coordination issue and an issue with the spiccato control. Both this and the Midsummer Night's Dream scherzo test clean playing.
"because i was said it has a potential by 2 luthiers (It is Handmade). "
It sounds much better, assuming that the microphone distance and angle are the same.
120 is too slow. I would do minimum 132, probably more like 136. If you're finding it so insecure you might want to take a critical look at your fingerings.
The adjusted violin does sound better, but there's still more scratch in the tone than is desirable. If anything, the mute will dampen the edge of a sloppy spiccato (really more sautille at full tempo), not increase it.
I couldn't hold myself...
But seriously - this proves that as a "Stunt" with some compromises i can probably play it even faster then 144, and even on a bike, especially when it is on a recording and i have several attempts.
There are no good fingerings for this spot. Be able to play all your diminished arpeggios from memory, on automatic-pilot. Be able to do the minor-third extension between each pair of adjacent fingers. Good luck with the audition. Just remember that you have no control over who else shows up, or the preferences of the judges. For orchestral playing at the pro level, intonation and rhythmic accuracy is a high priority. You don't need to be the fastest player in the room.
"Schumann Scherzo is awkward for the violin, probably because Schumann wrote it at the piano. A lot of Schumann is like this"
The fact that there are thousands of people out there who can play this at 144, with pure intonation and precise control and expressiveness, is why professional orchestra auditions are so competitive.
The only acceptable response to a committee's request to play something a little faster is to play it a little faster.
The reason I gave up on the idea of playing in a professional orchestra is the Schumann scherzo.
I'm sorry if i sound cinical - i respect this Profession of course, and I'll do my best,
Yeah getting a high tech job is a snap. Just go get your degree in electrical engineering. How hard can that be?
Show of hands...who else wants to see a cyber security board get the David K treatment?
There's a supply and demand issue, as well as a revenue and profitability issue. High-tech jobs pay a lot because there are many fewer people with the necessary skills than there are jobs for such people, thus causing salaries to rise. Salaries can be high because high-tech products/services are often extremely profitable even if you pay your workers a lot. And many such jobs have very long work hours, for which an employee is not paid overtime.
"I don't see any reason why average worker in High-Tech job that demands probably less skills and knowledge and accuracy is payed 2, 3 times more."
Playing in orcheatra is full time professional job:
Architects that work for the government, by the way, are "creative" workers too. As musicians.
Only a minority of American professional orchestras get any government funding at all. And if they get government funding, it's typically small amounts, less than 10% of their budget. The majority of the money comes from private donations and sponsorships.
I'll give another example to explain what i say:
In Israel the Lifeguards on the beaches can work in private sector too,
Real life is unfair and over-rated; that's why I go to the opera (as audience)
I think we went too far with the Schumman Scherzo;))))
There isn't really a large problem keeping professional orchestras in existence, contractual disputes between management and players notwithstanding; most of those are rooted in the failure of management to do their core job of fundraising. Even with the current levels of pay, there are vastly more musicians who want to play in orchestras than there are jobs. Unless that supply of qualified musicians drops off, salaries probably won't rise.
The European Monarchs in the previous centuries we're big democrats or Social or for equality, but they saw art as priority, that's why you had all this great composers and artists and developed classical music and art.
David - I'm really sorry to raise this but you still sound almost systematically out of tune. The impression I get is that much of it is actually a mechanical issue as if you are spacing your fingers evenly instead of adjusting for half and full note intervals. Can you try this: try playing the semitones too flat and the tones too sharp. Maybe you can break the habit.
Economic freedom is messy; it naturally leads to inequality that offends someone's sense of fairness. In USA, pro sports teams can fill stadiums with 50,000 voluntary customers while the symphony in the same city has trouble selling 2,000 tickets, so they ask for government subsidies and private donations to correct the unfairness. If God made one mistake it would be to put "thou shall not covet" as the last commandment instead of the first. Envy of other's success, when combined with the flawed Marxist Labor theory of Value has caused misery, poverty, and mass deaths.
As a musician, I think it would be great if musicians were paid more! I think most of us here would agree that the world would be a better place if the money that goes into, for example, lobbying or political attack ads would instead go into funding the arts - and I would also love to have a magical unicorn to ride on. In the meantime, though, if anyone wants to make a donation of, say, $30 million to my orchestra's endowment to raise salaries I will be more than happy to put you in contact with the appropriate people.
More government funding for the arts comes from local sources than federal sources, I think. In my state of Maryland, there are both state-level grants as well as county and city-level grants. My orchestra receives money from both the state and the county. The government sees these grants as justified based on the amount of associated revenue generated for restaurants and the like when people go out to a concert.
"How can they do it with minimum wages?"
I wonder what David sees in his mind when he refers to an "average" orchestra.
First of all, I can't believe that a country as musically developed as Israel has no community orchestras.
And it isn't just helping with money - it is also education.
I would never advice anyone to study violin-and truthfully, many other fields, some non-musical-if all you desire is a warranty that you'll be well paid. This sounds "bad", but for me, studying this beautiful instrument is a *wonderful* endeavor, and never a waste. That one is willing to do follow such a path where money isn't warranted is quite noble, in my strong opinion.
The Israel Philharmonic Orchestra is one of the world's great orchestras.
Adalberto valle Rivera
Adalberto valle Rivera
Plenty of professional orchestras have members that play on $5 million Strads that are partly funded by governments.
In the United States, most future politicians go to law school, and earn gobs of money working for white-shoe law firms before they ever run for office. If they study political science at all, it is either at the undergrad level, or a Master's in Public Policy. Maybe they intern or volunteer for political campaigns to make some contacts, but they don't expect to earn a living from doing politics. They save their nest egg doing something lucrative first.
The other route into politics is to get into a politician's office staff and work your way up to a chief of staff position. It's not uncommon in the US for state legislators or mayors to be succeeded by their top aides. That would be the way to get in without gobs of money. It's not all that hard to get hired for a staff position... of course it takes a lot of hard work and political skill to rise to a position where you'd be considered a viable candidate from there.
I'm going to be blunt.
And this is OK.
You don't have community orchestras is Israel? Start one!!!
You have great dexterity, and some technical understanding,, but it seems you lack a connection or understanding of the music or the idea of music.
Private planes are only
That Schumann excerpt that you posted does not make me think, "This is an acceptable level of playing for a professional audition".
"I'm not amateur as you think."
David, why not read Lydia's excellent blog,
---DK, "I thought USA was a capitalist country" My opinion, having traveled, is that USA, along with West Europe are Democratic Socialist: High taxation, high regulation, still allowing opposition parties, politically antagonistic to free enterprise, but allowing it to function because the socialist faction has learned that someone needs to pay the bills. The Europeans put up with it because the ordinary citizen gets three big things for their tax money: education through Univ. or vocational school, "free" medical care, and adequate public transportation. Americans don't get those things but imagine themselves to be freer than the Europeans. For our tax money we get a big military and interest payments on the national debt. Also my opinion; The prosperous nations of West Europe are Not an example of successful socialism, but just the opposite. While dragging the twin anchors of high taxation and regulation, the private sector is still able to break even and employ 90% of the non-government workers.
"I probably play better then most of the people here"
Indeed, I didn't want to be
"Playing at a professional level" is a very loaded phrase, because
DK, the point of many (most?) community orchestras in the US is not to provide a professional service without wages. The point is to enjoy a common hobby. If you get three of your friends together to play whist or duplicate bridge, do you expect to be paid?? Or do you enjoy each other's company and toss back a few proletarian lagers?
The big difference is that in an orchestra there are usually between 12 and 16 first violins who need to play as one IN A TEAM. I don't care how brilliant people are individually, if they're not part of that TEAM, they're worse than useless.
I've just been looking on Youtube. Orchestras playing this scherzo AS A SECTION. Also look at Nate Cole's tutorial on how to play it.
Interesting notes in that video, David.
Do teachers ever assign orchestral excerpts like these as studies to younger students? I mean, is it really harder than any of the more difficult Kreutzer or Rode caprices? When my daughter was just starting (so, like Book 3 level) her teacher suggested I take the "hard part" out of the Vivaldi A Minor concerto, trim it down so that it no longer looked like a page out of the Suzuki book, and give it to her as an "exercise." I even put a fake title on the top, "Exercise 3" or some such. It worked like a charm ... until she got to the Vivaldi and she caught on what I was doing. :)
@Paul Deck, orchestral excerpts was something I regularly saw, whether my orchestra repertoire, or chunks of additional repertoire my teacher asked me to work on. I get the same now with viola lessons.
Yes. Don Juan, Brahms 2, Shostakovich 5, and Midsummer Night's Dream I learned with a teacher when I was younger, among other excerpts. One of my teachers had intended to teach me all the common excerpts (idue to his assumption that at some point in my life I would want to take a professional audition) but I quit playing before he could.
In addition to standard excerpt books, there is this:
I once prepared the fast bariolage arpeggios in the 1st movement of Vivaldi's "Spring": slowly, an octave lower for intonation; then up high, slowly, faster, with various rhythmic patterns etc.
Wow Adrian -- you could go a lot of directions with that.... winter of our discontent, perhaps? Anyway it's great to know there are excerpt books, but I always assumed these were intended only for conservatory students, I didn't know they were taught to younger folks.
When I was in my early teens, my teacher had me buy the trio of Gingold orchestra excerpt books.
The Gingold excerpt books are classics. But you shouldn't take an audition from them; you should play from the actual part.
I assign some of the standard orchestral excerpts to my students at the college, because the majority of violinists, pro or amateur, will spend the majority of their time playing in orchestras. In my music major curriculum I had one course in violin orchestra excerpts, but I don't think one semester is enough, because the repertoire is huge, and the technical spread between Haydn/Mozart and R. Strauss concertmaster solos is very wide. Question for anyone: Has anyone published an excerpt series in approximate order of difficulty ?