Help with Double Stop Intonation in Andante from Bach A minor Sonata
I have been encountering some difficulties in double stop intonation while practicing the Andante from Bach's Solo Sonata No. 2 in A minor. For instance, for the opening double stop, I understand that there is a need to narrow the interval since C and E form a major 3rd. However, the question is whether to lower the E or raise the C.
Also, there are subsequent double stops where there is a conflict between maintaining the integrity of 2 independent voices (horizontal-wise) and keeping the purity of the intervals (vertical-wise). One example would be in bar 2, where the B in the accompaniment has to be flat in order to make the 6th interval with the G pure -- yet, since B is the leading note in C major, it should be sharpened.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
It is mathematically impossible to maintain pure intervals throughout the first line without running into pitch drifts. You just have to fudge things so that things sound both melodically and harmonically convincing. In other words, you just need to make decisions as to which notes you want to play slightly out of tune (with respect to pureness).
In the opening double stop, keep the E in its natural position for the most resonance. Give slight priority to the upper voice throughout the piece, the lower voice is just an accompaniment; and Kevin is right about trying to keep pure intervals.
Thanks Kevin and Theirno for the helpful advice! In other words, the key is to make compromises right?
2 words: analysis paralysis.
Joel, isn't it salient that the Andante is in C major?
@Gordon yes I have considered that, but like Thierno pointed out, playing C in tune and E slightly flat could compromise the resonance of the E with the open E string
With a two-voice Bach sonata and a double-stopped major third, with the E the main melody note, I'd wonder if resonance was gilding the lily.
@Gordon hmm perhaps you have a point.
Yes, whatever comes before - the music is shut away in a box, and my memory is not that good.
Against C, pure E and F will seem well-separated. Accept!
@Adrian when you say "Against C", do you mean an in-tune C or a raised one?
Also, are you referring to the F in bar 2?
If it's possible to discern on recordings what the pros do, then what is that? And if it's not possible then maybe it's not all that critical as long as it sounds good.
Pros vary. But I won't actively split hairs (except in my own practice..)
@Adrian agreed, professional violinists seem to have different ways of making the compromise between the purity of the interval and keeping the linear integrity of the melodic/bass line
@Paul, you're right that it's quite difficult to discern through recordings of professionals, but perhaps that is because they're doing it so skilfully that melodic impurities are disguised and alnost indiscernable to the human ear?
You can do anything you want, as long as it sounds in tune. In theory, since the movement is in C major, we need the tonic and the dominant to be in tune with each other, so raising the C would be problematic because you would have a very wide 4th with the open G. However, if you start with the higher C and then gradually lower the center until bar 4 when you have the open G, you can enjoy the best of both worlds. But this is VERY hard.
Suziki's own recordings of his method has sweeter thirds and wider semitones than David Nadien's, who seems to prefer a "Pythagorean" sound.
Bruno, I think the in-tune C is more important the the resonance of the open E.
If you want to make the deep dive into intonation, here's a great place to start -- Kurt Sassmannshaus explains the different intonation systems and when to use them.
Agree with most of the above comments. The "Leading-tone" concept should be left in the harmony text-book. It causes a lot of trouble when applied to intonation. The Bach Unaccompanied book is where advanced players collide with the problem of fine tuning; Pythagorian (aka Melodic, Expressive) vs. Just (aka Chordal, Tartini) tuning. Because of the difference tones (beats= interference tones), The brain is much more sensitive to errors on the double-stops than on a single-note melodic line. C is the tonic, home base for the piece. Don't raise it for that opening chord. Play it a perfect fourth above open G. 1st finger E will then be pulled back a little (1-2 mm?) to get the clean major third (5/4 frequency ratio). Then the 2nd finger F will be a perfect fourth (4/3) with C. The difference between E and F will be the "long" half-step, not the tight half-step you would use if you were playing it as an unaccompanied melodic line. With my fingers, there is a small gap between that E & F. One of the reasons the string instruments do Not have frets (=equal-tempered tuning) is so we can play in tune! Do we have time to think about that math while playing?-No. So let your ear be your guide, and just be aware that some notes will need to be bent sharp or flat.
Keep in mind some double stops give you more wiggle room than others. Sixths are more forgiving.
continued; --Thomas B.-- Yes, the perfect fourths are " murderously unforgiving." The math, the frequency ratios for the perfect intervals, are octave (2/1), P5 (3/2), and P4 (4/3). That is also the inverse of the ratio of the string lengths. Any deviation from that is heard, by the player, as "beats".
Thanks everyone for the helpful advice!
"IMHO it has to be tuned based on the upper note because that is the melodic line that you have to establish. So you squeeze the third and play the upper line on the low side for the next two measures."
I would recommend trying out the tuning system that Stanley Ritchie lays out in his book "Before the Chinrest" (p.86). He starts by playing a C chord with open G and E, and making sure that these outer strings form a perfect sixth. Then he tunes the A from the fingered E on the D string. Then, using a fingered B on the A string, he tunes the D string to produce a perfect sixth. This results in slightly narrow open string fifths (as they generally are in keyboard temperaments). Well-tempered Bach on the violin!
Just dug out my copy. My thoughts:
@Guglielmus wow thanks for that! It was really insightful -- never thought of tuning the A and D strings narrower. This is for all Baroque music in general?
@Adrian that's true...except perhaps on beat 3 of bar 8 the C-E-A chord should be played with the C raised since the E should be in tune with open A?
Joel, what I meant was you shade the E on the low side to make the third sound right with the c, and continue to shade low for the melody until the third measure when you have to match the open strings. Yes the lower line Cs and Bs have to conform to the upper line in that case.
Joel, I bar 8 I would not disturb the pedal C; the E & open A in beat 3 will be very brief, maybe arpeggiated, so we won't dwell on that horrid Pythagorean C-E, (nor on a grostequely widened fourth!)
Joel wrote: "This is for all Baroque music in general? ". Ritchie's book is about "Pre-Chinrest" music, so make of that what you will. He does say that when playing with a keyboard he will tune his open strings to match the keyboard's notes (so, almost certainly mostly narrow fifths). Notice how his system immediately solves a lot of the problems that are brought up in numerous comments above. For example, the situation that Adrian brings up here: "the E & open A in beat 3 will be very brief, maybe arpeggiated, so we won't dwell on that horrid Pythagorean C-E (nor on a grostequely widened fourth!)".
@Thomas ah I see, thanks for the clarification!
@Adrian that's true, most renditions I hear have this chord (and the previous) arpeggiated and I was wondering why
In fact Meantone (1/4 comma version) tuning implies tuning E to C, tuning D halfway by ear (hence the name) and distributing the "error" equally amongst the other fifths. Of course the keyboard can start the process on any note....
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