Profits from YouTube and Facebook
In Hebrew we have a saying:
"There's no TORA(Bible) without flour" -
And it means: you have to earn fair money for what you do and to have financial support even when it is something holy as Faith (And of course it refers to things like art).
Because otherwise you can't think right and objectively and not develop and you feel that it is simply isn't fair and it effects what you do.
It isn't greediness -
You can't create and move forward and inovate even with the greatest and cleanest intentions without taking care and solve this economical part.
I'm not a professional musician - I'm a politican (Learned political science) and i knew that there are huge economical problems in other styles, but i thought that Classical music is more organized and supported and financed fairly
since it is "The professional" style.
And although it is more organized than other syles,
i was amazed when i found out recently how hard economically it is even in classical music. For example - in Israel you are paid practically minimum wage as tutti player in an orchestra. Unbelievable -
After you lerned for years and you have to play for hours every day and practice!! For hours.
It is much more proftible to be a plumber!. I'm serious. Much !more.
I think that the first place to start to deal with it is the fair profits from YouTube and Facebook and probably other things as itunes.
When you organize a physical
concert for example - you pay some percent for renting the place - but most of the money, including of the advertisement is going to the player!,
In case of YouTube and Facebook - the most popular places for watching and probably even to listen to music and other forms of art - they don't pay at all!. Except of very popular videos (I don't know exacly how much).
Today people consume mostly on free places like that and buy less CD's etc.
I think that this is something that should have awareness and be dealt by Musicians and creators too, not just politicians.
I have read that if you are successful on YouTube and have 500,000 subscribers that you can earn $50,000 a year in revenue if you have enough videos and that is why at the end of most videos they request that you like the video and to please subscribe.
I'm not a rich person, but
if you think people are going to pay to hear you play, you might be mistaken???
Classical music clearly isn’t everyone’s interest, and it’s well nigh impossible for a classical musician to become really rich. Andre Rieu is the only name I can think of, but he is a lot more pop than classical.
I'll give an example:
Moreover - Because you paid more for the car! To fund the advertisement on YouTube, Now You have less money to go to a concert!.
If you're the person I think you are, who thought intonation was overrated, then no, no one is going to be paying to hear you play. If that is not you, then I'm sorry, wrong guy.
Perhaps the Hebrew proverb needs updating: "There is no Internet without banner ads."
David, for as long as I've been reading your threads, which I don't wish to do any more in future, I can say with absolute certainty that you are the one who makes things personal. Not Lyndon or anyone else.
Here are two recent articles I saw on the economics of music:
What would you think about a person checking the economic viability of being a musician, before going into it? Is that so difficult to do? Wouldn't it just be common sense?
"So you have to demand! The money and the serious approach."
I agree with David. In fact - I am very familiar with artistic people. My 3 grandchildren are college graduates and all into the arts, writing, music/cinema, theater. All knew what they were doing when they chose to study and "seek their fortunes" doing what they love. I think they all feel like they would rather practice their art than eat - but they have never had to make that choice - and I hope they never will.
There is no money to be made on youtube or facebook unless you are creating original music, or with enough of a change to make it new somehow.
"Economical organization" is the answer? Orchestral musicians are already unionized. What more are they supposed to do?
David, I'm aware that Tel Aviv University is a great academic institution. But that only makes it even more shocking that you seem so obtuse and recalcitrant after having earned a degree there! For example you seem endlessly capable of indignant, inarticulate drivel, but you weren't able to answer one simple question: What should one do when one's "demand" for a living (i.e., higher) wage is refused? Your answer to this question is desperately needed by all of us, otherwise we can never hope to reduce your extraordinarily deep understanding of economic theory to our sadly inferior everyday practical level.
Anderw Hsieh/Paul Deck
David, Hilary Hahn doesn't make much money from Youtube (Twoset may pay her a little for collaboration) because she doesn't actively update her Youtube channel with videos that people want to watch. The lion's share of her income is going to come from being a touring soloist.
I will happily second everything that Paul Deck last said.
So I asked you what you would do if your request ("demand") for higher wages was refused. You said I should:
IMO, those who pursue playing the violin should primarily do so for its own sake, for it's less than warranted you will be "rich", even as a good musician.
Nothing wrong with wanting to be paid for what you do (money is necessary to survive), but agree that none of us should expect to ever be wealthy.
I would note that legislators, especially local ones, can be quite involved in the local arts scene. They show up at least a token amount, from what I've seen, at various things my community orchestra has been involved in. And the state of Maryland's legislature is doing a pretty credible job of trying to save the Baltimore Symphony, even as its management seems to be determined to kill it.
YouTube for example at the beginning paid 1 dollar for every 1000 views for a video - it isn't much but was "Something"
It used to be that record companies, record producers, and radio stations were the curators of music. If you wanted to have your music heard by a larger audience and potentially get paid for it, you needed these businesses to sign you, produce you, and promote you.
I wonder how is it fare in other creative industries outside music.For example, if you were an aspiring actor, even if you go to college for acting, it doesn't mean you come out and get paid for an acting job. I believe a lot of them do a lot of side jobs while keep auditing, hoping for their chance to come. I also think of photographer, painter, etc. Very few of them are trained to expect to make a living out of their craft without any side jobs, at least not in their starting years.
One dollar for 1000 views is a totally unsustainable business model. Anyone can set up robot accounts (a process that is, itself, automated) to generate 1000 "views" of his or her own content every five minutes. As an Israeli "politician" surely you are aware of the influence that "bots" continue to have in any arena where mouse clicks, shares, retweets, and other "views" (i.e., votes) are counted by machine. Facebook understood this from the beginning. It's a common trick, called a "loss leader," which is designed to creates "buzz" by inviting desperate people to invest recklessly.
So now you are comparing orchestra musicians with public school teachers. This is a worthless comparison to make, and it shows how poorly you understand economics. I live in the state of Virginia in the US. About 15% of the state budget (US$8 billion) goes to K-12 education. (There is significant additional input in the form of local taxes as well.)
"If you do something, and especially if someone has profits from what you do ... you should be paid for it fairly."
David I see that at least they taught you at least the first rule of being a politician: Don't answer any of the questions that are put to you. Whereas I answered your questions as faithfully as I possibly could.
Paul, your approach borders on being anti Semitic IMHO
Lyndon, I'm sure you mean well but I don't really see how my comments would be construed as anti-Semitic. In any event, let it be known that I am an individual of partly Jewish heritage and many of the men in my maternal grandmother's family (including a notable pianist-composer named Rochmann, in the same family as the famous cigarette company) were murdered by the Nazis in the 1930s. I have never ever harbored anti-Semitic views (nothing remotely close to that), regardless of how you may be interpreting my writings.
Well you comments about Israeli Universities are a little suspect??
I am still agreeing with Paul Deck, and have difficulty conceiving what sort of mental self-deception one would need to go through, to label his posts as anti-Semitic. He simply posted some basics of economics, which could apply to any race or culture.
Lyndon, this is what Paul said about Tel Aviv University:
David, you might find it interesting to know that many schools will pay orchestra teachers a salary with generous benefits. They may even have 2 string orchestra teachers and 2 band teachers for large enough public schools (as was the case when I went to high school). Not sure what your comparison with high school teachers is supposed to be suggesting, since there are many musicians who make a good career out of teaching the arts to students, and a great deal many more who teach middle/high school orchestra as a way to make extra money part-time.
James, being a self-promotion whore is not something I aspire to. However, my actual waiting list is well beyond 5 years, and I have been discouraging new commissions, partly because there's a good chance I'll kick the bucket before I finish those I already have.
Too bad for the losers. That is just the way the game is played today. No use complaining about it.
Krakovich, I hate to say it, but good art has always carried on, sometimes without strong financial incentives.
Actually David, I don't know of any top maker that's more into self promotion than you are IMHO
I'll repeat my question to David K, when did you graduate from Tel Aviv University, and with what degree.
I also now repeat, for the third time, my request that David Krakovich tell us how he is presently earning his living.
@David Burgess @George Huhn ....maybe even @David K if he is listening
I don't think you've heard David play, many of us have.
James T -
I feel David has some valid points..
I want to point out that content creators on YouTube only get paid if they enable ads on their videos. YouTube currently pays 55% of the ad revenue of the content creator. So it's definitely not YouTube keeping all the money. There are minimum viewing time and subscriber requirements for enabling ads.
Such comparisons between violinists and physicians are the kind of analysis one expects from a small child. Violinists don't the same level of responsibility.
I'm starting to wonder whether he actually graduated from Tel Aviv University at all. Perhaps he attended only briefly and dropped out? Or maybe even never attended at all?
David K. does not appear to understand the fundamental relationships between price and supply and demand.
When someone says “studied at” it usually means did not receive degree.
I wouldn't necessarily say the "studied at" is a sign of anything... "not finished" is another story...
Sure, but a good politician has an understanding of basic economics, public policy, and the interests of the various stakeholders, and the ability to build coalitions and work out win-win deals to advance their goals. I'm not seeing too many signs of that here.
On the contrary this entire thread started out with a call for musicians to organize and stand up for what they deserve economically. Essentially this is a political objective, and you often support your arguments by claiming to be a "known politician" in Israel.
What is with the fixation on Hilary Hahn's youtube channel? She doesn't really put much effort into her channel to begin with. Her recent videos are 12 short lessons about super obscure modern violin pieces, and before that, she went years without uploading anything. Joshua Bell has uploaded a single 2 minute video in the last year. Why would you expect either of them to have accumulated large followings?
Krakovich, we all struggle with the issue of how much our governments should finance things which could basically be called "entertainment".
"What is with the fixation on Hilary Hahn's youtube channel? She doesn't really put much effort into her channel to begin with"
"For the last years I'm working in security, this is a 'Students job' that i started when learned at University."
The obvious solution to these totally crazy questions of Mr Paganini Presto is in his first post.
FYI: Hilary Hahn has 178k followers on Instagram.
"It is much more profitable to be a plumber!"
Who did you run against? How many votes did you get? How many did the other candidate(s) get? And why it's impossible to find any of this information in any newspaper or media outside Facebook pages written by you?
I'm a retired high school and middle school English teacher. I taught for 37 years. I happen to live across the street from a middle school (ages 11 - 13). Every morning I see the students getting off the busses, and standing together in small groups as they wait for the school bell. They look like a nice bunch of kids. Of course, I don't know any of them, so I don't really know their real personalities. Some could be - and probably are - total jerks. How would I know? Now, for years I have been invited to walk across the street and help teach the kids, and yesterday I was tempted to talk with the principal about offering my experience. Then I read this thread. Wow. That was a real wake up call. Clearly it will be a cold day in hell before I dive back into all that nonsense. Thanks for reminding me how middle school kids behave. XO
"Who failed as politician? What frustration?
David, I see you understood, thanks to an esteemed family member, that you do not play like a professional.
If you want to make profit from Youtube and Facebook, the solution is actually simpler than you realize.
Most of my movie watching and music listening is on streaming services. I don't buy more than 2-3 CDs a year any more. I do, however, go to a lot of live concerts, probably 12-15 per year, often with my wife or with my daughters too. If the concert is free but there is a basket in front for donations, I put in whatever I would usually pay for that kind of concert, usually a little more because I often see $1 and $5 bills in the basket which I feel is just insulting. I wouldn't leave a $1 bill for a busker ... $5 minimum unless what they're doing is completely terrible like banging on a kitchen pot or something. If I went down to the farmer's market and there was someone there grinding out Paganini No. 16 whilst riding an exercise bike, I would probably drop a ten-spot in their violin case.
"I really don't understand the people here: What are all these personal attacks?"
As for the claim that you're only not playing in a professional orchestra because the pay for tutti players is too low...
And again, under its current terms, YouTube pays out 55% of ad revenue to the content creator. You can't make money from a small channel -- but YouTube isn't making money directly from those channels either. YouTube pays to maintain small channels because the money comes from recommending "related videos" that on bigger channels that do make ad revenue.
One more thing: the MESHI Party appears to have 19 likes on its Facebook page. Israel isn't so small that a party with 19 likes on Facebook is "known."
For most YouTube creators, their videos and any associated monetization is not their job. It's a side-hustle.
David, since 20% of Israelis are Arabs, do you consider having outreach to them with a Facebook page in Arabic too? Or do Arab Israelis speak enough English or Hebrew that this is not necessary? Or do you feel it's just unlikely they'll be interested in your political position? I've always been curious how something like this would be done in Israel.
That's not the point. You say you're a "known politician", and yet: all your political pages combined have a quarter of the number of likes as my city's local gadfly perennial candidate no one's heard of (who I guarantee is not well funded and runs for local offices in a city the size of Tel Aviv), and we can't find a single mention of your party or participation in Israeli politics that isn't written by you.
Oh, come on. Not even some person's blog? Surely your supporters would mention you once in a while?
Apparently the top 3% of earners on YouTube only make about $16k a year. (Source:
Hard to know what those statistics really mean. For example, is that 3% of people who are actually trying? Perhaps it's close to that. Also would be interesting to know the average effort (say, hours per week) and overhead expenses of those 3%.
"But exactly how much more would YouTube be worth in such a scenario? That's a pretty tough question to answer -- both because Google still doesn't break out YouTube's revenue and operating income, and because it's hard to think of a truly comparable, publicly-traded peer.
"With 1.4 Million Monthly Viewers Earn Less Than $17,000 a Year, Research Shows
$12 billion actually isn't a lot of money considering the number of people posting content. There are more than a million monetized YouTube accounts. If YouTube were to pay out 100% of its revenue to them, they'd average less than $12,000 each. The median would be much lower, because this includes the super-channels. As it is, YouTube currently pays out 55% of its revenue. (If it doesn't, it gets sued. End of story.)
>While the earnings are billions of dollars!
Revenue is not profit.
Again, I've done the arithmetic above. $12 billion isn't a lot considering the number of content creators being paid. The numbers are very much in line with what you'd expect for 55% of revenue going to creators as per the contract terms.
If google gives 55% to creators it means it gives more than 12 billion dollars to creators, right?
No, 55% of revenue means 55% of $12 billion, or $6.6 billion.
And even if it gives 6 billion to creators (half of the 12 billions earnings) how you get to 6 billion if 1.4 million viewers are 17,000 per year? If "the top 3% of earners on YouTube only make about $16k a year"
140 million views a month (100 times the threshold for the top 3%) puts you just outside the top 300 YouTube channels. That's more than 300 channels that each earn over $1.6 million. To earn $1 million a year, you need more than 87 million views a month -- which is accomplished by well over 500 channels. That's where the money is going. The top 10 people alone earn a combined $180 million -- the top 8 channels all exceed a billion views a month.
You really don't understand unequal distributions, do you? Sure, the 30,000 people above you would average $220k. But a very small percentage of them are earning a lot more than $220k, which means most are earning much less than $220k.
And the 45% "tax" look to me as huge figure too, this is a lot of money- billions of dollars!.
Y'all haven't any more chance of fettering out YouTube's finances than Donald Trump's. My advice is: Practice slow scales in thirds, and try to make yourself useful to your employer.
For example -
Videos of yourself playing the violin iffily, on a stationary bike will only work if you have a pleasant smiling appearance. I said this before. All popular middle of the road violinists smile all the time while they're playing. So do, by the way, successful politicians.
Everything is "personal" to you, David, including stuff that's not. You're not the center of the universe that you imagine yourself to be.
Paul. i enjoyed the little bread man, thanks.
Well David, you presumably own your violin. You as well own your recording equipment, as well as choose the time you spend practicing, recording, and uploading, and you can choose what you practice and what to upload, and where you upload it, and even how you choose to share it on this board.
yes, Janice, those two Armenian guys try to have an effortless, pleasant expression that is essential for attracting an audience if you play middle-of-the-road stuff.
First of all, how much does YouTube really profit from people watching David Krakovich videos? My guess is they're losing money on you. If so, then if we're being "fair" then you should pay them a fraction of what they're losing?
Have you read the YouTube Terms of Service? By uploading a video you grant them a
Aww, how cute. You think YouTube gets a lot of profit out of your "thousands" of views.
"I'll give you an example- the video of the Armenian violinist that you saw here is because of me -"
"I'll give you an example- the video of the Armenian violinist that you saw here is because of me -"
No, my point is that YouTube really doesn't make much money at all and doesn't have much money to pay out considering the total number of video views. Even if YouTube paid out 100% of its revenues to content creators, you'd hardly get anything with "thousands" of views and no ads on your channel -- that referral to a monetized video that you're talking about earned YouTube a fraction of a cent.
There's really no getting around it.
And I'll tell you this -
I posted my comment because of Herman.
David, once more, you are okay in the first thee positions; extend your efforts up the fingerboard..
I didn't watch the Armenian violinist on YouTube because of you. I watched it because Janice posted the link here on violinist.com. I wasn't even using YouTube at the time.
Paul, I stand corrected!
Equally problematic, however, is insisting that your intonation problems are caused by your recording equipment. That's not true either.
In most cases - because people in classical music afraid to upload and discuss their videos - you arr comparing me to the the best professionally made videos and performances of the top violinists in the world.
your intensily competitive nature kind of precludes succesfully working in every pursuit that requires amicable cooperation.
You can adjust your expectations of "beginner, intermediate, and advanced" however you like. There are, of course, no hard and fast rules.
David, your practicing is bearing fruit!
I don't mind to talk about my playing - but this thread is about facebook/YouTube and the profits there and we always go to my level of playing:
If you want to compare yourself not based on your ability play violin but on your ability to attract Youtube followers, I can offer feedback too.
Imagine all the practice time wasted on this fruitless thread.
David I watched your "Play with Ray" video. Your intonation is fine here but remember this piece is in Suzuki Book 4 and there's nothing higher than third position.
Paul Deck wrote:
Adalberto valla rivera
I do not hate your playing. Everybody is at their own level. I do not enjoy bullying/mocking others' playing-it's the attitude that we/youtube/"classical music"/the world owes you something that I dislike.
"you take the discussion to my playing, not me."
And David, you showed more modesty in this thread, and then awoke collective demons by describing your playing as "high level"!....
Confused by the distinction between 'classical' and 'solo'. Are you going to try jazz or something?
yeah, that's clearly the best avenue.
Maybe YouTube could have a feature called "YouTip" where, if you like a performance, and the performer (or owner of the IP) has "YouTip" turned on, then you could leave a quarter or a dollar or a fiver and maybe that would start to add up. Payment could be handled through PayPal or the Google Play Store, just enter your pin and leave a tip.
No, probably you would not be allowed to activate YouTip without accepting ads in your content.
If there were Patreon-style contributions, Google would still take a cut and make money that way, just like Patreon does.
Oops, I wasn't aware of Patreon. Oh well.
Adding Patreon to Youtube?
Hey, my latest YouTube video has 25 views and I have 8 subscribers. Surely I have generated at least a penny of value! ;-)
James sorry I admitted above I hadnt heard of patreon.
David, you have a choice: You can either use YouTube (or Patreon) according to their terms, or you can do something else. That's how the service industry works: If you don't like the service, don't use it. (If YouTube is discriminating against you, that's another matter that is covered by the various laws within the US and probably elsewhere too.)
Well, YouTube is not the only video hosting site on the planet, not by a long margin. You could choose any number of video hosting sites for businesses, pay for the video hosting and delivery, and keep 100% of the revenue for yourself.
Paul Deck, Lydia Leong
David there are many musicians unions across the world that help each other get jobs and support each other. You just happen to have a fixation on only going through Youtube and refuse to go through any other channel. I don't know why...although I have my suspicions.
I like your Franck piece Mrs. Leong.
David it's not "a fiction." It's a fact. The current state of antitrust law in the United States is not within a hundred miles of slapping YouTube down (i.e., breaking it up) because of its status as a monopoly.