Profits from YouTube and Facebook

Edited: June 2, 2019, 6:40 AM · In Hebrew we have a saying:
"There's no TORA(Bible) without flour" -
And it means: you have to earn fair money for what you do and to have financial support even when it is something holy as Faith (And of course it refers to things like art).
Because otherwise you can't think right and objectively and not develop and you feel that it is simply isn't fair and it effects what you do.

It isn't greediness -
You can't create and move forward and inovate even with the greatest and cleanest intentions without taking care and solve this economical part.

I'm not a professional musician - I'm a politican (Learned political science) and i knew that there are huge economical problems in other styles, but i thought that Classical music is more organized and supported and financed fairly
since it is "The professional" style.

And although it is more organized than other syles,
i was amazed when i found out recently how hard economically it is even in classical music. For example - in Israel you are paid practically minimum wage as tutti player in an orchestra. Unbelievable -
After you lerned for years and you have to play for hours every day and practice!! For hours.
It is much more proftible to be a plumber!. I'm serious. Much !more.


I think that the first place to start to deal with it is the fair profits from YouTube and Facebook and probably other things as itunes.

When you organize a physical
concert for example - you pay some percent for renting the place - but most of the money, including of the advertisement is going to the player!,
In case of YouTube and Facebook - the most popular places for watching and probably even to listen to music and other forms of art - they don't pay at all!. Except of very popular videos (I don't know exacly how much).
Today people consume mostly on free places like that and buy less CD's etc.

I think that this is something that should have awareness and be dealt by Musicians and creators too, not just politicians.

Replies (197)

Edited: June 2, 2019, 7:18 AM · I have read that if you are successful on YouTube and have 500,000 subscribers that you can earn $50,000 a year in revenue if you have enough videos and that is why at the end of most videos they request that you like the video and to please subscribe.

When you see videos with Monster hats and shirts and Monster cans throughout it is obvious that these people are making a bit more income through sponsorship.

I enjoy watching a lot of YouTube videos but I found the ads annoying so tried downloading and ad blocker app and it works extremely well and am very happy with it.

June 2, 2019, 7:39 AM · I'm not a rich person, but
50,000 for a year is a joke!.whole year of videos??? The popular ones with 500,000 subscribers?

For a comparison - Cnn! The global network has 6.5 million.
And Hillary Hahn has 29,000!!!.

I for example know Hillary Hahn just from YouTube, watched alot of ther videos - learned many things, but she didn't get a dollar! from it. While YouTube did!
From the ads! On here's videos -
Because most of us know her from YouTube. The same thing with other musicians and artists.

In her case she has some indirect profit because this videos are also an advertisement for her concerts, but in most cases the profits are totally go to YouTube owners.


Also - This ads of the companys on youtube aren't free - we pay for them with the products that we buy that cost more to fund the advertisements.

June 2, 2019, 7:43 AM · if you think people are going to pay to hear you play, you might be mistaken???
June 2, 2019, 7:50 AM · Classical music clearly isn’t everyone’s interest, and it’s well nigh impossible for a classical musician to become really rich. Andre Rieu is the only name I can think of, but he is a lot more pop than classical.

That’s why I’m not into sending my kid (well, if I had) to violin lessons at 3 years old. Investment by and in the kid is huge for very little and uncertain payoff. Can’t see the point.

June 2, 2019, 7:56 AM · Lyndon tyler
That's the big miatake -
Because people do hear! And watch The videos on YouTube, and they do pay! For it - because the advertisement you see on YouTube that finance YouTube are paid by the people! Through the products they buy that are advetised.

But the money doesn't go to the creators of the video!. Just in very rare cases.

Edited: June 2, 2019, 8:04 AM · I'll give an example:
Let's say you watch on YouTube a video of Hillary Hahn and you see an advertisement of Toyota car.
This isn't free advertisement - Toyota pays for it and YouTube gets the money.

But Toyota doesn't pay from its pocket for the advertisement - the car costs more to fund this advertisement. So you pay more for the car!.
If Hillary Hahn doesn't get the money someone else gets it (YouTube/Facebbok etc.)

Edited: June 2, 2019, 8:35 AM · Moreover - Because you paid more for the car! To fund the advertisement on YouTube, Now You have less money to go to a concert!.
If she had revenue from the video maybe she could make a cheaper tickets.
Now on the contrary - the tickets cost more because they have to fund the videos too.
(I speak generally).

June 2, 2019, 8:41 AM · If you're the person I think you are, who thought intonation was overrated, then no, no one is going to be paying to hear you play. If that is not you, then I'm sorry, wrong guy.
June 2, 2019, 8:51 AM · Perhaps the Hebrew proverb needs updating: "There is no Internet without banner ads."

Congratulations for figuring out the principles of a capitalist economy all by yourself. Your constituents are so lucky.

June 2, 2019, 9:00 AM · Lyndon Taylor
Are you serious? You make it a personal thing?
Edited: June 2, 2019, 11:38 AM · Paul Deck
I didn't know there are right-wing violinists, nice to meet you;))

But Seriously, this sort of capitaism is so called "Corporate Capitalism" - https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=corporate+capitalism

In most cases it kills! entrepreneurship and creativity because it sucks all the profits.

June 2, 2019, 12:24 PM · David, for as long as I've been reading your threads, which I don't wish to do any more in future, I can say with absolute certainty that you are the one who makes things personal. Not Lyndon or anyone else.
June 2, 2019, 4:44 PM · Paul Deck
You know what? Let's talk personal if you say I'm doing it anyway.

Let's take you! For example And this thread,
Because you probably know very well what I'm talking about in this thread:

You, as you say in your profile was a pretty advanced musician, you could be a professional musician i guess, but you didn't go for it - you went to study chemistry,
Probably because it is more stable economically, right? As many do.

And now you - who isn't professional not in politics and not in music "teaching" me on both this things.


June 2, 2019, 5:43 PM · Switch Gent

No. I'm not the troll here - people like you are the trolls.

This is a discussion forum for issues relates to music and violin. And i bring up relevant issues that bother me and upload my videos to discuss them, as everyone do.

What people like you do is trolling- you do nothin relevant or helpful- just cut the relevant discussion with insults.

June 3, 2019, 8:52 AM · Here are two recent articles I saw on the economics of music:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/03/business/dealbook/review-rockonomics.html

And this one is really good:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/opinion/sunday/music-economics-alan-krueger.html

New York Times has a paywall so you may not be able to read them. The second one deals with the irony that we live in a world with more readily available music than ever, but discusses why only a few achieve stardom and how this stardom is segregated out (much more goes to #1 than to #100).

I also will say that I appreciate the actors who are more purely inclined to do their work for the greater good (Wikipedia) than those who who are relentlessly marketing to us (Google).

June 3, 2019, 9:26 AM · Krakovich wrote:
"It is much more proftible to be a plumber!. I'm serious. Much !more."
_________________________________

There ya go. When enough musician switch to being plumbers, there will be a shortage of musicians, and their compensation will rise. Supply and demand.

What are your proposed solutions?

Edited: June 3, 2019, 10:39 AM · J Seitz

Take for example doctors in Hospitals (or workers in Hi-Tech industry) -
There are better Doctors that have more knowledge and work more etc, and they get bigger salaries and this is legitimate - but everyone!, All doctors, have good! And very sufficient sallaries too.
The same thing with almost every profession.

In Music it is very unstable! Economically - For my big surprise even in classical music -
some players are very successful (and in this cases too - it is too not always stable),
but the vast majority have no income or very small one.

I, for example, don't even try to be a tutti player in orchestra because it is so low salary.
Practically minimum wage!.
For a profession that demands work and practice!!and years of learning!.


https://work.chron.com/much-money-violinist-orchestra-make-16949.html

"Salary Overview

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, half of all musician earned less than $22.99 an hour in 2011. If, however, you’re part of the top 10 percent of earners, you’re looking at a wage of $66.01 an hour. The bottom 10 percent isn’t as lucky, earning no more than $8.63 an hour. But none of these figures accounts for industry — a factor that has some bearing on earnings.

Orchestral Salaries

In 2010, orchestra musicians, including violinists, averaged $28,000 to $115,000 a year, according to a survey by Berklee College of Music, a Boston-based undergraduate program. With full seasons lasting roughly 40 weeks, violinists and other musicians made anywhere from $700 to $2,875 a week."


Edited: June 3, 2019, 10:20 AM · David Burgess

The 2 thing that should be done:

1. Economical Organization - demand for sufficient salaries.
To think very seriously not just about art but how to fund it.

As a politican i can tell you that music or art is the last thing that politicians think about because it isn't "vital" thing as medicine or Army.
So you have to demand! The money and the serious approach.

2. There's a need to organize the private sector profits too - to assure that the creators get their fair share, as in tha cases of Facebook and YouTube as i wrote above.

June 3, 2019, 12:04 PM · What would you think about a person checking the economic viability of being a musician, before going into it? Is that so difficult to do? Wouldn't it just be common sense?

Not everyone who wants to be a professional football player is successful, or makes a lot of money, either. The vast majority never make any money at it at all.

Gotta use your noggin. ;-)

June 3, 2019, 12:43 PM · "So you have to demand! The money and the serious approach."

What happens when the response to the "demand" is "no"? Switch to asking nicely? Quit the job and make no money at all, when you've got a family support and a mortgage to pay?

For someone who supposedly studied economic theory and political science in school, you really seem to have absolutely zero practical knowledge about either one. Everything you say is entirely theoretical. I wonder, frankly, how your own bills get paid.

Edited: June 3, 2019, 12:56 PM · I agree with David. In fact - I am very familiar with artistic people. My 3 grandchildren are college graduates and all into the arts, writing, music/cinema, theater. All knew what they were doing when they chose to study and "seek their fortunes" doing what they love. I think they all feel like they would rather practice their art than eat - but they have never had to make that choice - and I hope they never will.

They are now early in their careers and do have to supplement their incomes doing some less creative things. But they continue to practice their "crafts" every chance they get, whether for remuneration, or not and have found some creative ways to "monetize them."

I now live in California where there are many professional orchestras, but probably only two that can actually provide full-time careers for their employees (LA Phil, and SFSO). The many other orchestras include "regional orchestras" and some of those that support stage performances like the operas, ballet, and others (such as New Century Chamber Orchestra, Philharmonia Baroque, etc.). I know some of the excellent professional musicians who play in these groups - one of them actually travels around Northern California to rehearse and perform with up to 6 (six) of these ensembles.

Such is life!

Edited: June 3, 2019, 1:15 PM · Paul Deck
1. I didn't study political science at "school" but in "Tel-Aviv University", one of the best if not "The best" academical institution in Israel.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/tel-aviv-university

2. Although I'm not elected politician, but I'm very involved and very close to this issues and have a public experience.


3.I define myself as Capitalist too (Social Capitalist) and i agree generally with you that people have to work according to the public demand.

But!!
This isn't the case here:

1. Even in capitaism there are "National priorities" that the government has - to promote something that it sees as important - art is one of them.

But Most of politicians worldwide are very corrupt and pretty stupid too, they don't see art as a priority.
They pretty much rob!!! It whenever they can.

If politician robs hospital or doesn't fund medicine you will have uprising!, Strikes and so on - if he robs art - what will happen? Nothing.
That's how most politicians think.


2. The fact that YouTube and Facebook so popular show that the art itself is popular! (Not just music, but music is probably the most popular) -
And it brings profits!:
But the creators don't get the fair share of it.


June 3, 2019, 1:03 PM · There is no money to be made on youtube or facebook unless you are creating original music, or with enough of a change to make it new somehow.

I find it unlikely that a person will make any money on youtube uploading their performances of classical pieces, regardless of how good they are. There are some exceptions (like Valentina Lisitsa), but a exceptions, they shouldn't be much of a guide.

And I think it also depends of the instrument. Most of violin works are uninteresting if played solo. A pianist might have a better chance to gain some online popularity.

June 3, 2019, 1:19 PM · "Economical organization" is the answer? Orchestral musicians are already unionized. What more are they supposed to do?
Edited: June 3, 2019, 2:13 PM · David, I'm aware that Tel Aviv University is a great academic institution. But that only makes it even more shocking that you seem so obtuse and recalcitrant after having earned a degree there! For example you seem endlessly capable of indignant, inarticulate drivel, but you weren't able to answer one simple question: What should one do when one's "demand" for a living (i.e., higher) wage is refused? Your answer to this question is desperately needed by all of us, otherwise we can never hope to reduce your extraordinarily deep understanding of economic theory to our sadly inferior everyday practical level.
June 3, 2019, 2:18 PM · Anderw Hsieh/Paul Deck

1. First of all - Musicians and artists and the public have to have the awareness! Of this problem.
Even here, in this thread you Saw people that think that "This is Capitalism", "This is the System".
If you think like that nothing will happen.

This awareness should be also advanced! And go to the public -
For example - When you saw in American presidential debate question about these issues?

2. Unions aren't enough - you have to make them Strong and influential politically -
For example - I've seen a lot of political campaigns on TV where politicians meet with Truck drivers and other workers and of course with Millionaires - but I've never seen a politician meets orchestra players or in Art school.

3. They have to work with YouTube and Facebook and other platforms for this "Fair Share".


June 3, 2019, 2:21 PM · David, Hilary Hahn doesn't make much money from Youtube (Twoset may pay her a little for collaboration) because she doesn't actively update her Youtube channel with videos that people want to watch. The lion's share of her income is going to come from being a touring soloist.

I disagree with your assessment that most of us know Hilary from youtube. She has been a contender for "best violinist ever" for close to 2 decades at this point.

In any case, getting upset at Hilary Hahn's youtube revenue doesn't really matter, because the amount of people making a living (and not just getting some extra money) from being Youtube violinists is extremely small compared to the people who make a living performing in an orchestra (doubly so if you aren't a Youtube violinist who appeals to the thirsty 15-35 year old male demographic), which is small compared to musicians making a living as teachers (playing an occasional gig).

Are you trying to look for a career change, or are you making an observation to the money spent on this kind of thing? Why don't you support your local group by going to concerts instead of watching them on Youtube?

Edited: June 3, 2019, 3:06 PM · James T
There's no connection between YouTube/Facebook/other Medias to concerts -
These are different things:

It's like there is a CD and a concert.
If you make a video it is like recording a CD track.
Will you tell me "go to a concert instead of buying the cd?"


Edited: June 4, 2019, 5:47 AM · I will happily second everything that Paul Deck last said.

When I entered the fiddle trade, I already knew and accepted that I would not be purchasing multiple Lamborghinis and Ferraris every year.

Wah, woe is me. LOL

I realize that you were not successful in your attempt to be elected the prime minister of Israel. My condolences. I also realize that your youtube fiddle-playing videos have been less than highly embraced. Continuing to beat dead horses would not be my chosen path. Of course, you are free to do as you wish, but don't expect me to pay for it.

Edited: June 3, 2019, 10:15 PM · So I asked you what you would do if your request ("demand") for higher wages was refused. You said I should:

1. "Have the awareness! Of this problem." If I've already been refused higher wages, I think that means I'm already aware of the problem.

2. "Go to the public." So, perhaps a commentary in the Washington Post about how musicians' wages are too low? Or I should send a letter to my Congressman about it?

3. "Make [unions] strong and influential." They already are -- but only for trades (such as truck drivers) where basic commerce (or a corporation's share price) will be damaged if they go on strike. If musicians go on strike, everyone still eats (except the musicians). The fact that you cannot understand the difference between a strike of truck drivers and a strike of orchestra musicians is totally appalling.

4. "Work with YouTube and Facebook... for my 'fair share'." You mean as presumably you have already done? How's that working?

You know absolutely nothing about practical everyday economics. Whatever they taught you at Tel Aviv University is what I call negative knowledge. It's worse than knowing nothing: You have a great deal of knowledge, but it's actually wrong.

June 3, 2019, 8:01 PM · IMO, those who pursue playing the violin should primarily do so for its own sake, for it's less than warranted you will be "rich", even as a good musician.

Of course, for those that are more profit oriented I will sound non-sensical, but there are more personality types in the world than those usually emphasized in US society. Like Mr. Victor stated with his family, there are some that would rather "practice their art rather than eat." I respect and admire such dreamers, which is why I refuse to see life as a "profit or nothing" journey.

(Which however does not mean I am kicking "business minded" people-whatever makes you happy, believe and do. You are who you are.)

June 3, 2019, 10:27 PM · Nothing wrong with wanting to be paid for what you do (money is necessary to survive), but agree that none of us should expect to ever be wealthy.
June 4, 2019, 12:04 AM · I would note that legislators, especially local ones, can be quite involved in the local arts scene. They show up at least a token amount, from what I've seen, at various things my community orchestra has been involved in. And the state of Maryland's legislature is doing a pretty credible job of trying to save the Baltimore Symphony, even as its management seems to be determined to kill it.
Edited: June 4, 2019, 1:42 AM · David Burgess

1. You see now that the biggest problem is awareness among Musicians! To these problems?
People here attack me! Instead of the problem.

2. I deal and dealt with all these problems in politics for years - but now - since i'm thinking about playing seriously I feel these problems personally -
For example it is totally unprofitable for me even try! To get into orchestra. Or even play at all.

The only reason that i check this option of professional playing is because i think that I play at hige level
and that brings more money in most cases.
Something that might be relevant.

3. My YouTube channel also - if i had profits from it for example - i could invest - record with better camera, maybe even professionally, with paid professional accompaniment, to have more free time to practice etc.

4. No one asked you to pay for anything more than you pay now as a costumer -
The thread is about fair share of the revenues from the Advertisements.

5. I didn't fail in politics - I am known politcian in Israel and I'm involved in global politics too with the "Universal Democratic State" - which is an international political Organization that I'm building.

But - in politics it is even worse then in Music - If you are not elected and not corrupt in most cases you pretty much don't have any profits or very small one from what you do , even if you are very known and have an impact.
So you have to do other things too if you don't want to be corrupt in politics:

For example - in israel all the parties are funded by millionaires - you don't have something like in USA - Small Donations to parties (officially there is but there are no donations - no party was ever elected with small donations).

Edited: June 4, 2019, 2:23 AM · YouTube for example at the beginning paid 1 dollar for every 1000 views for a video - it isn't much but was "Something"
Now it stopped doing it too.
Facebook never paid.

All this platforms earn a lot of money from the content. The creators have to get their fair share.

Edited: June 4, 2019, 6:00 AM · It used to be that record companies, record producers, and radio stations were the curators of music. If you wanted to have your music heard by a larger audience and potentially get paid for it, you needed these businesses to sign you, produce you, and promote you.

For better or for worse, this is no longer the case.

The barriers to making and publishing music today are essentially zero. Big businesses are no longer curating music for listeners; instead listeners are choosing who, what, when, where, and how they want to consume music.

It is now up to the music creators to promote their own music; to create their own audiences, and to sell to their audience. And the competition to simply be heard is overwhelming.

The business that are providing you a “free” platform are doing it because you are their product. And they don’t care about you. They will let the crowd decide the winners and losers. And there are very few winners.

So it is totally up to you to figure out how to build your own audience.

And your competition is fierce and growing. Complaining about it won’t help.

It is like a marathon race that keeps getting larger every year. No matter how many people finish it, only the winners get the gold. Nobody cares about the rest.

June 4, 2019, 6:28 AM · "David Burgess
1. You see now that the biggest problem is awareness among Musicians! To these problems?"

No, I think most musicians are already well aware of the economic viability challenges.

June 4, 2019, 7:34 AM · I wonder how is it fare in other creative industries outside music.For example, if you were an aspiring actor, even if you go to college for acting, it doesn't mean you come out and get paid for an acting job. I believe a lot of them do a lot of side jobs while keep auditing, hoping for their chance to come. I also think of photographer, painter, etc. Very few of them are trained to expect to make a living out of their craft without any side jobs, at least not in their starting years.

Is it a wrong impression I got or musicians in general think they are different?

For many of those musicians who produce contents regularly on youtube, they also raise fund with patreon, kickstarter, selling merchandise and advertising private lesson to support their work. Personally, I support 6-7 channels on patreon from team recorder to music theory. By being a patreon, I got the chance to suggest what video topic I am interested, get to know some behind-the-screen stuff and support some musicians I like. I think it will be where the music industry goes in the future. The musicians who we can related at personal level, and add value to our enjoyment will end up getting the (financial) support. Playing the music alone doesn't quite do it, especially if it is something that many people have played before and someone probably plays it better.

Edited: June 4, 2019, 8:43 AM · One dollar for 1000 views is a totally unsustainable business model. Anyone can set up robot accounts (a process that is, itself, automated) to generate 1000 "views" of his or her own content every five minutes. As an Israeli "politician" surely you are aware of the influence that "bots" continue to have in any arena where mouse clicks, shares, retweets, and other "views" (i.e., votes) are counted by machine. Facebook understood this from the beginning. It's a common trick, called a "loss leader," which is designed to creates "buzz" by inviting desperate people to invest recklessly.

Maybe once you understand how this business works, the "Universal Democratic State" (an entity that you created out of whole cloth on Facebook) might be able to have more than a few dozen "likes" and "followers." Perhaps Tel Aviv University has some type of advanced degree program that would teach you some basic marketing strategies. Posting your violin videos on your political Facebook page probably isn't helping.

The business model by which "ordinary" (that is, not extraordinary) musicians were to earn livings through crowd-sourcing, internet banner ads, and other "modern" means of distribution and (e)-commerce, has already bubbled. When a bubble bursts, what one usually finds is that a very select few have enriched themselves and everyone else wasted their time. Who became enriched is determined partly by skill and creativity and partly by random chance.

Edited: June 4, 2019, 9:24 AM · Sivrit Mizael
You probably have a day job and work somewhere, right?
Let's say you are a school teacher.

How will you reacts if I'll say:
"why you get money from it? Work for free! And leave the money to thr school.
and to fund it open patreon account.
Is it Serious?

If you do something, and especially if someone has profits from what you do as YouTube/facebook from the videos you should be paid for it fairly.

June 4, 2019, 9:52 AM · So now you are comparing orchestra musicians with public school teachers. This is a worthless comparison to make, and it shows how poorly you understand economics. I live in the state of Virginia in the US. About 15% of the state budget (US$8 billion) goes to K-12 education. (There is significant additional input in the form of local taxes as well.)

You asked, "Why you get money from it?" There are two answers. First, education is a time-proven investment -- America needs its citizens to be educated to maintain its economy. So it's good fiscal policy to pay our teachers. Moreover, providing a quality public education is actually written into the Virginia State Constitution, so it's clear we have understood this principle for a long time. Second, if public school were not available, many parents would have to stay home to care for their children. Then they would not be working. I'm surprised they don't teach you this stuff at Tel Aviv University. Maybe you should get your money back, because obviously you didn't get any kind of education there.

Now I will ask you a question. How many orchestra musicians do you think the State of Virginia should put onto its payroll, and at what wage? The average annual salary of a school teacher in Virginia is US$58000.

None of your thinking is practical. So I have to ask (again, because I have asked before): How do you earn your living presently? Where does your own paycheck come from?

Edited: June 4, 2019, 9:55 AM · "If you do something, and especially if someone has profits from what you do ... you should be paid for it fairly."

If you are not being compensated fairly by YouTube, I suggest you stop posting your videos there. The other thing you don't seem to understand about economics is that the person who holds the money tends to decide how it gets spent. There is an old proverb that applies here:

"You don't get what you deserve; you get what you negotiate."

Edited: June 4, 2019, 10:46 AM · Paul deck
You know who else was a crazy guy who promoted universal democratic state?

"When Albert Einstein Championed the Creation of a One World Government (1945)":
http://www.openculture.com/2017/09/when-albert-einstein-championed-the-creation-of-a-one-world-government-1945.html

And many other known people, there is a Topic in Wikipedia about it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_government


All the sphere of political science is "International" and "Universal" - When you think about Human rights organizations and Greenpeace and the UN organization etc.
And There are other organizations that do almost the same thing i do.

If you look on things superficially like that - you can call also crazy the fact that I talked with you! In the past 2 days, someone who is on other continent!! More then with people in my home!.

June 4, 2019, 11:29 AM · David Krakovich,

I'm just curious, when did you graduate from Tel Aviv University, and with what degree?

Edited: June 4, 2019, 11:47 AM · David I see that at least they taught you at least the first rule of being a politician: Don't answer any of the questions that are put to you. Whereas I answered your questions as faithfully as I possibly could.

You mentioned Greenpeace and the UN as examples of global organizations. You forgot some others like the Catholic Church. Is that your idea of sound government? Einstein wanted a single world government. Wonderful, but unfortunately so did Hitler. A "one world" government would not necessarily be a benevolent one.

Let me ask you again, how do you make your living presently?

June 4, 2019, 12:31 PM · Paul, your approach borders on being anti Semitic IMHO
Edited: June 4, 2019, 12:48 PM · Lyndon, I'm sure you mean well but I don't really see how my comments would be construed as anti-Semitic. In any event, let it be known that I am an individual of partly Jewish heritage and many of the men in my maternal grandmother's family (including a notable pianist-composer named Rochmann, in the same family as the famous cigarette company) were murdered by the Nazis in the 1930s. I have never ever harbored anti-Semitic views (nothing remotely close to that), regardless of how you may be interpreting my writings.
June 4, 2019, 1:08 PM · Well you comments about Israeli Universities are a little suspect??
Edited: June 4, 2019, 1:53 PM · I am still agreeing with Paul Deck, and have difficulty conceiving what sort of mental self-deception one would need to go through, to label his posts as anti-Semitic. He simply posted some basics of economics, which could apply to any race or culture.

I have some issues with the education at the University of Michigan too (where I live), and I have never looked into the racial or cultural makeup of the teaching staff. Why? Because it has never mattered nearly as much as the skills and talents of individuals, whatever their race.

June 4, 2019, 1:55 PM · Lyndon, this is what Paul said about Tel Aviv University:

"David, I'm aware that Tel Aviv University is a great academic institution. But that only makes it even more shocking that you seem so obtuse and recalcitrant after having earned a degree there!"

Does that sound like it's casting aspersions on the university? Pick any university in the world, and there are always some alumni who seem to have learned nothing there.

June 4, 2019, 1:57 PM · David, you might find it interesting to know that many schools will pay orchestra teachers a salary with generous benefits. They may even have 2 string orchestra teachers and 2 band teachers for large enough public schools (as was the case when I went to high school). Not sure what your comparison with high school teachers is supposed to be suggesting, since there are many musicians who make a good career out of teaching the arts to students, and a great deal many more who teach middle/high school orchestra as a way to make extra money part-time.

@David Burgess
Perhaps there is a reason why you don't own any Lambos. Aside from what you told me when I called your shop, I haven't seen the length of your waiting list advertised anywhere, neither have a seen a list of recordings made with a Burgess instrument.

Perhaps you should consider making under the name of Davide Burgessonni with a 5 year waitlist for professional orchestra musicians and aspiring concert soloists, you may be able to buy a Lambo yet.

June 4, 2019, 2:10 PM · George Huhn

What you say is the big miatake! That i think most of the the people have about YouTube and Facebook:

This is a deceiving "Freedom" that they give that in fact paralyzes! the industry and the creativity and the quality:

Yes - they give freedom,but they take all the profits and don't give serious option to have profits (as im the case of facebook),
And If people don't have profits eventually they stop to create. Or do it in low quality.

Without profits you don't have the motivation and can't do promotions or advanced things (for this you need money and profits) -
The CD companies gave contracts- Money, investment to the creators - today you have nothing - it isn't proftible to the Agencies too in most cases.

Edited: June 4, 2019, 2:15 PM · James, being a self-promotion whore is not something I aspire to. However, my actual waiting list is well beyond 5 years, and I have been discouraging new commissions, partly because there's a good chance I'll kick the bucket before I finish those I already have.
Edited: June 4, 2019, 2:25 PM · Too bad for the losers. That is just the way the game is played today. No use complaining about it.

The platforms give you an opportunity to compete.

If you can't build your own profitable audience, then nobody is going to pay you for your work.

End of story.


Edited: June 4, 2019, 2:27 PM · Krakovich, I hate to say it, but good art has always carried on, sometimes without strong financial incentives.

How many paintings did Van Gogh sell during his lifetime?

If you don't have the stomach for being a "starving artist", maybe you should be a plumber instead.

June 4, 2019, 2:33 PM · Actually David, I don't know of any top maker that's more into self promotion than you are IMHO
June 4, 2019, 2:59 PM · I'll repeat my question to David K, when did you graduate from Tel Aviv University, and with what degree.

It's a simple question, with a simple answer.

I ask, because it relevant to your line of discussion.

June 4, 2019, 3:22 PM · I also now repeat, for the third time, my request that David Krakovich tell us how he is presently earning his living.
Edited: June 4, 2019, 3:29 PM · @David Burgess @George Huhn ....maybe even @David K if he is listening

It doesn't really even need to be that cut and dry between starving artist and "soulless corporate drone". There are plenty of people out there (provided they put in the time and practice of course) that have regular day jobs that do side gigs playing for the fun of it. Most major cities will even have semi-pro orchestras, or will pay some money to get some very good players to fill out a section of amateurs.

Hell, I'm not even any good on the serious-amateur-scale but my teacher asked me to play a wedding gig sight-reading the second violin parts to most of the classic material. Enough to live on? Well, it's not better than my current day job, but a couple hundred bucks on the weekend ain't half bad.

If David K is trying to make money playing the instrument, that you can get these kinds of opportunities 2 ways. Word-of-mouth, or through auditions. I can't say I have any experience with Israeli amateur orchestras, but why not just audition? To say it's not worth your time to play with your peers because you can't make money seems very short sighted. Who knows, maybe you will make a friend who knows to call you when he needs musicians for a gig? But at this point, if he refuses to audition, I'm not sure what more there is to say. Seems he wants the easy way out without putting in the work. I'm actually not sure what the point of this post is. Is he trying to get US to give him money to fund a career?

June 4, 2019, 3:31 PM · I don't think you've heard David play, many of us have.
Edited: June 4, 2019, 5:47 PM · James T -
This thread isn't about me but about general problem (Despite it effects me personally too).

I explained in the Thread clearly what are the goals:

1. Economical Organization of the musical and art spheres -
To think how to fund!! This things - no one expects doctors to be "Starving Doctors", right? Why should artists and musicians be?

2.Fair share of the profits on things like Facebook and YouTube to the creators of the content. Today it is extremely rare.

If people here want to be "Poor" and "starving artists" and leave the money to global giant and very rich! corporations I don't know what to say.

June 4, 2019, 5:56 PM · I feel David has some valid points..
But I suppose doctors are considered to be "essential", while musicians are more of a "luxury"?
June 4, 2019, 6:52 PM · I want to point out that content creators on YouTube only get paid if they enable ads on their videos. YouTube currently pays 55% of the ad revenue of the content creator. So it's definitely not YouTube keeping all the money. There are minimum viewing time and subscriber requirements for enabling ads.

We should also note: YouTube isn't making money directly off the smaller channels either. The reason YouTube gives them space is 1) anyone can go viral, and 2) YouTube can collect data on who watches what, and then "recommend" videos that the user is likely to watch and that it does make money from.

Also, for artists, choosing not to enable ads may be a business decision: if the purpose of the video is to promote record sales or concert attendance, then they may lose out by turning away viewers who don't want to see ads.

Edited: June 4, 2019, 7:39 PM · Such comparisons between violinists and physicians are the kind of analysis one expects from a small child. Violinists don't the same level of responsibility.

David won't answer any questions put to him about his university degree or his means of livelihood. Without the latter information his credibility on economic matters is zero.

June 4, 2019, 8:12 PM · I'm starting to wonder whether he actually graduated from Tel Aviv University at all. Perhaps he attended only briefly and dropped out? Or maybe even never attended at all?

Similarly, considering that neither his own political Facebook page nor his party's have more than a double-digit number of likes, it seems he's a "known politician in Israel" to about the same extent that he's a "high level violinist"...

June 4, 2019, 8:26 PM · David K. does not appear to understand the fundamental relationships between price and supply and demand.
June 4, 2019, 11:02 PM · When someone says “studied at” it usually means did not receive degree.

From David K’s own website (worth a gander, btw):

“Studied at the political science department of Tel aviv university ( not finished )”

June 4, 2019, 11:21 PM · I wouldn't necessarily say the "studied at" is a sign of anything... "not finished" is another story...
Edited: June 5, 2019, 12:54 AM · Dimitri Pappas

You say by yourself that i say cleraly! And officially! That I didn't finish the degree. First thing. And i think we talked about it in the past here.
So what is the problem?

I studied in Tel-Aviv University for 2 years out of 3 for first degree - Between 2008-2009, in the political science department -
I quit at the end of the 2nd year to start to build the party.

In the first 2 years you get all the basics!, And in the 3rd year it is mainly "finishes" with less study hours - therefore i can say freely thay i studied! In Tel-Aviv University and that it wasn't "briefly".

Also - to enter Tel-Aviv University you have to take exams - and i passed them with pretty good grade.

Many known people didn't finish the degree: Mark Zukerberg, Bill Gates, and most of Israeli prime Ministers!!! (Some of them didn't even leran for a degree, including the current candidate from the left to prime minister - yair lapid)

Edited: June 5, 2019, 1:06 AM · Dimitri Pappas

Politics isn't like Science or Medicine or even Classical Music - the vast majority of politicians don't have degree in politics! (Political Science/International affairs),

But the fact that i did learn it academically for 2 years gives me much more relevant knowledge.

And about the small amount of likes and subscribers -
Joshua bell has 11,000 subscribers on youtube, Hillary Hahn has 18,892.
While basic popular channel has millions of subscribers.

I am known a politician. Trust my word. I will not say it publically if it wasn't true.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 3:09 AM · Gemma k

Can you tell me what academical degree had George Washington?
Or Harry Truman?
They didn't.

Politics, especially in democracy, isn't a regular "Profession" - this is a "public" thing.
It is more like "Authors"- or even musicians in Pop music -
Academical knowledge gives you more relevant knowledge, it has meaning, that's why i mention this, and that's why I went to study it, but it isn't necessary - as with authors or pop musicians:

If a pop singer learned for 2 of 3 years in the best musical academy in the country - it has meaning? of course. even if he didnt finish the degree.

June 5, 2019, 4:01 AM · Sure, but a good politician has an understanding of basic economics, public policy, and the interests of the various stakeholders, and the ability to build coalitions and work out win-win deals to advance their goals. I'm not seeing too many signs of that here.
Edited: June 5, 2019, 6:48 AM · Andrew Hsieh

I'm here not as politician but as a violinist - i see a very serious problem that is a "Political" problem that effects me personally too now and i try to make awareness about it.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 7:13 AM · On the contrary this entire thread started out with a call for musicians to organize and stand up for what they deserve economically. Essentially this is a political objective, and you often support your arguments by claiming to be a "known politician" in Israel.

I live in a small university town in Virginia. Our local mayor's Facebook page has 500 likes. There's a guy I know who ran for mayor several years ago (and lost) and he ran for state representative (and lost). And even this guy has 200 likes on his Facebook page. Why? Because he's a super solid, forward-thinking guy with a clear head and a warm heart and he participates actively on the local scene in many unheralded ways, so at least locally he is truly a "known politician."

My suggestion to David is to consider carefully another of the great proverbs: All politics is local. Work locally and build support from there. I also respectfully suggest to stop! putting exclamation points in the middle! of sentences.

I personally don't care whether David finished his degree. But I am still curious to know how he's presently making his living.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 8:21 AM · @paul deck

For the last years I'm working in security, this is a "Students job" that i started when learned at University and kept doing as a politician, because it gives me nice salary (Better then a Tutti Player in orchestra for example) and enough free time to do things in politics (today thing done mainly on the internet - at least in Israel),

I thought i will be elected to Israeli Parliament with a new party i started and advanced and that it will give me laso more financial stability as elected Parliament member, but it didn't happen (We had elections last month), so now I'm thinking about playing on violin since I'm at pretty advanced level.

I'm still engaged in politics because it is important, and will be - but there's no money there if you are not elected in most cases, and now that I'm not political candidate anymore i have time also for Something like playing on violin.
If i will not succeed in violin playing I'll probably do something else.

June 5, 2019, 8:24 AM · What is with the fixation on Hilary Hahn's youtube channel? She doesn't really put much effort into her channel to begin with. Her recent videos are 12 short lessons about super obscure modern violin pieces, and before that, she went years without uploading anything. Joshua Bell has uploaded a single 2 minute video in the last year. Why would you expect either of them to have accumulated large followings?

That would be like someone expecting a professional orchestra gig but doesn't put in the effort to even audition for a community orchestra because he thinks it's beneath hi-

OHHHHHHHH

Edited: June 5, 2019, 8:35 AM · @James T
I gave these examples (Hahn,Bell) because thesw are very famous people that are known to millions around the world - and still have not many followers,
It is very problematic indictaion.

Also - my political views are very leftist on many issues -
in Israel it is a big problem - even the leftists are kind of right-wing -
you probably know it.
People know you but to like! Is another thing.
It is very close to people like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria ocasio cortez in USA that are considered "Far Left".

I'm known, trust me.

June 5, 2019, 8:41 AM · Krakovich, we all struggle with the issue of how much our governments should finance things which could basically be called "entertainment".

If you have a viable solution to this dilemma, I haven't noticed it yet.

If you make decent money as a security guard in a mall or something, by all means do that as your primary source of income,and play the violin for enjoyment.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 9:43 AM · "What is with the fixation on Hilary Hahn's youtube channel? She doesn't really put much effort into her channel to begin with"
_______________________________________

Hilary is one of the hottest players on the planet. If that doesn't explain it for you, we can go a few more rounds, before I lose patience with someone who may not have "both ores in the water".

June 5, 2019, 8:51 AM · "For the last years I'm working in security, this is a 'Students job' that i started when learned at University."

But I couldn't find your name in the Staff Directory at Tel Aviv University. Who is your employer then?

"I thought i will be elected to Israeli Parliament with a new party I started and advanced and that it will give me also more financial stability as elected Parliament member, but it didn't happen (We had elections last month)."

I can't find, via Google, any evidence that you were a legitimate candidate for Parliament. Surely if you were a candidate then there would be newspaper articles about your candidacy and so on. If I type "David Krakovich" with "Parliament" into Google the only hits are your Facebook page(s) and a few other pages associated with the world-unification movement. So -- who was actually elected in the Parliamentary election that included your candidacy?

I also can't find any Google hits indicating any kind of activities or mentions of you in the news associating you with Tel Aviv University. The only hits I can find are where you claim to have attended this institution. Surely you can appreciate that this seems very mysterious.

Of course they taught you in Political Science at University that when you are a politician you can expect people to examine your professional activities and your record of accomplishments very closely because people are ideally elected, at least partly, on the basis of their experience.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 9:00 AM · The obvious solution to these totally crazy questions of Mr Paganini Presto is in his first post.

It's too bad he failed as "a politician" (of course there's no record of his political activities, Paul, don't you see what kind of person we're dealing with?). Becoming "a professional violinist" may not quite be the thing, due to some technical problems, and also a huge social incompatibility.

However focusing on becoming a PLUMBER is clearly the way out!

June 5, 2019, 8:53 AM · @David

You should make an effort to see more live music if Youtube cost per impression bothers you that much. Hilary Hahn can sell 7500 tickets at $100+ apiece in a week. She has plenty of followers, and unlike Youtube views, these fans pay a lot of money.

I would be willing to bet a video of me sight-reading Sibelius that if you were to add up the total amount of ad revenue that was paid from every Youtube video I've watched in the last 10 years, that pile of money would be less than the money Hilary Hahn makes from selling me a single concert ticket. If you want to be part of the solution, you can start by buying concert tickets, or, as many on here have suggested, getting involved in a community music group or orchestra.

Y'know, kind of like how politicians start by being involved and gaining reputation in smaller communities and working their way up...

June 5, 2019, 8:55 AM · FYI: Hilary Hahn has 178k followers on Instagram.

https://www.instagram.com/violincase/?hl=en

June 5, 2019, 9:06 AM · David K.,

I see clearly now. I understand your frustration with your turn in politics, and your search for employment that gratifies you. Clearly, playing the violin would be a great way to support one's self and family.

But, that's the issue you are getting at. Violinists--and other musicians--are not valued by governments. And I do not think that they should be. I want clean water/air, functioning roads, effective fire fighters and police, solid public education, a well-funded scientific granting agency (I'm in the US) to train the next generation of innovators. Music takes a back seat.

Case in point, my day job (professor) pays for music. I also help run a nonprofit theater company, and we pay our actors essentially a token salary, musicians more (they are unionized) and the technical crew gets paid quite well. Here's the reason why:

If an actor quits, or is terrible, I have 10 other actors waiting to take their job. The musicians are in a similar boat. A capable lighting designer is harder to come by, and if they quit, we are literally in the dark.

Best of luck in your efforts. Unfortunately I see it as an uphill battle, given societal priorities.

June 5, 2019, 9:38 AM · Paul Deck

1. What staff of Tel-Aviv university?
I learned there - I don't work there. I work in private security company.


2. Since i lost the elections and I'm not a candidate in Israel anymore i closed all the Israeli party pages, YouTube channel and the website.
I had a page in English of the israeli PARTY that wasn't active, you can see it here:
https://www.facebook.com/MESHI-party-Headed-by-David-Krakovich-1785673954804781/


I mainly known to israelis and to political activists as politician from Facebook (which ia very popular in Israel - 1st place in the world) and from the time in Israeli labor party.
Israel is very small country, this is pretty much a big city! In its size so it isn't such a big task.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 9:57 AM · Herman west
Who failed as politician? What frustration?
I sound like frustrated person?

That i wasn't elected (that was the first time i tried)? So what?
You will say to violinist who learned in academy and didn't pass audition that he is a failure?
Ronald reagen failed 3 times as candidate for president, joe biden twice already.

I'm still involved and will be involved in politics - politics isn't just elected people. but since i wasn't elected and in politics you don't have money i think about doing other things - as professional musicians do.
Violin is the first option because I play at high level.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 10:28 AM · "It is much more profitable to be a plumber!"

For once David I agree with you on something. At $100/hr plumbers do indeed make more money!

June 5, 2019, 10:50 AM · Who did you run against? How many votes did you get? How many did the other candidate(s) get? And why it's impossible to find any of this information in any newspaper or media outside Facebook pages written by you?
Edited: June 5, 2019, 11:21 AM · I'm a retired high school and middle school English teacher. I taught for 37 years. I happen to live across the street from a middle school (ages 11 - 13). Every morning I see the students getting off the busses, and standing together in small groups as they wait for the school bell. They look like a nice bunch of kids. Of course, I don't know any of them, so I don't really know their real personalities. Some could be - and probably are - total jerks. How would I know? Now, for years I have been invited to walk across the street and help teach the kids, and yesterday I was tempted to talk with the principal about offering my experience. Then I read this thread. Wow. That was a real wake up call. Clearly it will be a cold day in hell before I dive back into all that nonsense. Thanks for reminding me how middle school kids behave. XO
Edited: June 5, 2019, 11:54 AM · "Who failed as politician? What frustration?
I sound like frustrated person?"

Thanks for asking.

A hundred percent you do sound that way.

June 5, 2019, 11:55 AM · Paul Deck

In Israel the system isn't like in USA where the Parliament members are elected personally.
In Israel it is a Parliamentary system - that means you have to create a party.
And it should be pretty big and funded seriously for the media to cover it.

I didn't get to that point - I did a public campaign and I'm known but i didn't get enough support for that.


June 5, 2019, 12:09 PM · Herman west
I really don't understand the people here:
What are all these personal attacks?
I'm here as violinist, this topic is about general problem - the profits from YouTube and Facebook - and you make it personal.
Edited: June 5, 2019, 2:25 PM · Kracovich wrote:
"I really don't understand the people here:"
__________________________

If you want to be a politician, shouldn't your first step be learning to understand people?

June 5, 2019, 1:15 PM · David, I see you understood, thanks to an esteemed family member, that you do not play like a professional.
And yet again you say you play at a high level!

But it's when you try "high level" pieces that you play so badly.
I have made half my income from playing "medium level" music, but well!
(The other half from teaching.)

June 5, 2019, 1:31 PM · Adrian Heath

As i said before in my view it isn't so bad. And wasn't so bad. for average playing that isn't classical professional.
But In classical music you have some extra level demands, especially for intonation, that are legitimate.

I didn't play for 15 years and started again just last year, so it takes time to improve and I might reach this classical level eventually.

As we talked about - i soon will start again to practice my "Infamous";)) caprice no.16 by Paganini and we'll see if i can play in tune in classical level such pieces too.

June 5, 2019, 1:32 PM · If you want to make profit from Youtube and Facebook, the solution is actually simpler than you realize.

Your goal is to get paid to play at a high level. High level violinists have trouble getting views playing perfectly (i.e. Hilary Hahn's Bach video), but what they do very well is use these videos to attract people to their brand. Hilary will make fractions of a penny if I watch her video, but make quite a lot of money when I buy a ticket to her concert, or her Bach album on vinyl, or her encores book. You have to do this!

Many companies make profit advertising on Youtube, because this way you can guarantee views for your performance. All you have to do is make an video ad about your cd or your tour, and then set the number of impressions you want. Your profit will be when people click on the ad of a high level violinist and buy your CD, or attend one of your concerts. I see this strategy work for pop music groups and metal groups all the time, and even big music festivals will advertise this way. If it didn't bring in profit, they wouldn't do it.

June 5, 2019, 2:52 PM · James T

Of course i know about this, and that there are also the Patreon and other ways,
And it is legitimate if someone wants to make a free video for promotions,
As teachers give "free first lesson",
But what about the lessons themselves?


You have movies and you have theaters - these two are different Medias.
Will you say to movie company "make free movies and give them freely in the cinema for people to come to the theater?" Especially if someone does have profits from the movie? As Facebook and YouTube?

Edited: June 5, 2019, 3:06 PM · Most of my movie watching and music listening is on streaming services. I don't buy more than 2-3 CDs a year any more. I do, however, go to a lot of live concerts, probably 12-15 per year, often with my wife or with my daughters too. If the concert is free but there is a basket in front for donations, I put in whatever I would usually pay for that kind of concert, usually a little more because I often see $1 and $5 bills in the basket which I feel is just insulting. I wouldn't leave a $1 bill for a busker ... $5 minimum unless what they're doing is completely terrible like banging on a kitchen pot or something. If I went down to the farmer's market and there was someone there grinding out Paganini No. 16 whilst riding an exercise bike, I would probably drop a ten-spot in their violin case.
June 5, 2019, 3:18 PM · "I really don't understand the people here: What are all these personal attacks?"

You invite argument as follows:

(1) You make strange claims that cannot be independently verified,
(2) You disagree with everyone else and then concluding that everyone else is wrong,
(3) You tend to read only one sentence of what someone has written and ignore everything else, especially any questions put to you, these are answered only with great reluctance,
(4) You ask people for advise or suggestions and then you try to refute those suggestions and advise instead of trying to utilize or at least acknowledge that they have a point to make.

June 5, 2019, 3:23 PM · As for the claim that you're only not playing in a professional orchestra because the pay for tutti players is too low...

This is what a tutti player in regional orchestras plays like. I didn't go to great lengths to find it -- I just searched YouTube for the Don Juan violin excerpt and randomly picked out one that I could confirm was being played by a regional orchestra violinist with no titled chair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSUTftHYWJg

Match that if you can.

June 5, 2019, 3:30 PM · And again, under its current terms, YouTube pays out 55% of ad revenue to the content creator. You can't make money from a small channel -- but YouTube isn't making money directly from those channels either. YouTube pays to maintain small channels because the money comes from recommending "related videos" that on bigger channels that do make ad revenue.
June 5, 2019, 3:37 PM · @David

Well, the movie company will make trailers that they give away for free. That trailer tries to get me to spend money watching the movie at the theater.

Teachers give free lessons too! Trial lessons are generally free to see if it is a good fit for the student (or at least, I've never paid for one).

Even during a job interview, you and the interviewer are learning something about each other and no money is changing hands.

Spotify has a free tier for listeners who want to try the service.

Even the grocery store will give away food for free to get people to try new products.

If you want to sell your albums, you can record a short high level excerpt which will advertise your skill to people. Then they will buy your full-length album.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 3:56 PM · One more thing: the MESHI Party appears to have 19 likes on its Facebook page. Israel isn't so small that a party with 19 likes on Facebook is "known."

Earlier this year the central election bureau reported that 5.8 million Israelis are eligible to vote.

My city's population is half a million, and the county population is about 1.5 million. (About 800,000 registered voters in the county, I don't have a number for the city.) We have a local perennial "gadfly" candidate who keeps running for city and county offices and rarely gets more than 5% of the vote for anything. His highest-ever vote total was something like 12%. I'm sure most of the city doesn't know who he is, beyond being someone who keeps running for down-ballot offices. His Facebook page has 828 likes.

June 5, 2019, 4:13 PM · Andrew Hsieh
The 19 likes are on the page in English - in Israel we talk Hebrew.
The Hebrew main page had about 100 likes, and probably about 100 more are on my personal political pages - Political friends and followers.

I agree that it isn't much - but take into account that israeli main candidate to prime Minister from the left, Benny Gantz, who was on CNN and everywhere and spent millions of dollars on ads has just 145,000 likes.
This is a small country. Just Netnyahu, the prime minister, has 2 million followers and half of them are americans -Trump supporters.

I'm not saying it was a success - but i did my best:
We have very problematic system in Israel - as i said - we don't have like you have in USA public small donations, all the parties are funded by millionaires. and since I'm very leftist on economy too i see such funding as problematic and many in the Democratic Party in USA now.

In israel was never elected party with public funding.

June 5, 2019, 4:22 PM · For most YouTube creators, their videos and any associated monetization is not their job. It's a side-hustle.

One could argue that for many professionals musicians, performing isn't their primary job either. It's a side-hustle to teaching, or perhaps even holding some other day job.

June 5, 2019, 4:32 PM · David, since 20% of Israelis are Arabs, do you consider having outreach to them with a Facebook page in Arabic too? Or do Arab Israelis speak enough English or Hebrew that this is not necessary? Or do you feel it's just unlikely they'll be interested in your political position? I've always been curious how something like this would be done in Israel.
June 5, 2019, 4:33 PM · Andrew Hsieh
Imagine that Bernie Sanders, who also has "leftist" views had to run without any public donations because no one thinks you should donate to political campaign and should get the money from millionaires or from his own pocket, you think he could be elected?
That's what happens in Israel.
That's the conditions that i had.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 5:12 PM · That's not the point. You say you're a "known politician", and yet: all your political pages combined have a quarter of the number of likes as my city's local gadfly perennial candidate no one's heard of (who I guarantee is not well funded and runs for local offices in a city the size of Tel Aviv), and we can't find a single mention of your party or participation in Israeli politics that isn't written by you.
Edited: June 5, 2019, 5:13 PM · Andrew Hsieh
As i said - I wasn't covered by the media because i didn't manage to get to the level of advanced party with money "that has a chance",
But I'm known to many people from Facebook and from political involvement in the Biggest leftist party - the Labor Party, where i was before going to start a new party.

Look at me here on this site - violinist.com - probably everyone knows me - right? - will you see it mentioned in newspaper?

June 5, 2019, 5:26 PM · Oh, come on. Not even some person's blog? Surely your supporters would mention you once in a while?

Not to mention that even the mainstream press tends to give minor parties at least a brief mention once in a while. It takes me less than 30 seconds to find mentions in multiple news outlets (including major ones) of parties that got less than 0.01% of the vote in the last two Israeli elections.

Edited: June 5, 2019, 5:31 PM · Lydia Leong
That's their side job because they don't earn enough,
There are many that this is or was their main job.
As for example youtubers that cover technology.

It can be a main job - if you get few thousands dollars every month it is a monthly salary for most be people in Israel, and in USA.

June 5, 2019, 7:29 PM · Apparently the top 3% of earners on YouTube only make about $16k a year. (Source: LINK) That's definitely side-hustle territory, not a job.
Edited: June 5, 2019, 10:03 PM · Hard to know what those statistics really mean. For example, is that 3% of people who are actually trying? Perhaps it's close to that. Also would be interesting to know the average effort (say, hours per week) and overhead expenses of those 3%.
June 5, 2019, 10:33 PM · Lydia leong
While the earnings are billions of dollars!:
http://www.businessinsider.com/youtube-still-doesnt-make-google-any-money-2015-2

Edited: June 5, 2019, 10:45 PM · "But exactly how much more would YouTube be worth in such a scenario? That's a pretty tough question to answer -- both because Google still doesn't break out YouTube's revenue and operating income, and because it's hard to think of a truly comparable, publicly-traded peer.

Estimates for YouTube's annual revenue, nearly all of which still comes from ads, vary a fair amount. But many of the estimates are now above $10 billion. At different points, Bank of America and Mizuho forecast that YouTube would post 2017 revenue of $13 billion and $12 billion, respectively. And in February, Baird's Colin Sebastian estimatedYouTube is doing around $15 billion in annual sales."

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/youtube-might-be-worth-over-100-billion-14586599

June 5, 2019, 11:03 PM · "With 1.4 Million Monthly Viewers Earn Less Than $17,000 a Year, Research Shows
You should probably buy lottery tickets instead".

And Facebook makes even more and pays almost nothing.
I guess that other "Streaming services" as Itunes thay give enough too.

The content is what brings the money!.this is much worst then the record companies in the past i think.


https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/even-youtube-stars-with-14-million-monthly-viewers-earn-less-than-17000-a-year-research-shows.html

Edited: June 5, 2019, 11:08 PM · $12 billion actually isn't a lot of money considering the number of people posting content. There are more than a million monetized YouTube accounts. If YouTube were to pay out 100% of its revenue to them, they'd average less than $12,000 each. The median would be much lower, because this includes the super-channels. As it is, YouTube currently pays out 55% of its revenue. (If it doesn't, it gets sued. End of story.)
June 5, 2019, 11:05 PM · >While the earnings are billions of dollars!

>Article headline: "YouTube-still-doesnt-make-Google-any-money"

lolwut

June 5, 2019, 11:12 PM · Revenue is not profit.

YouTube supports a ton of content that it doesn't monetize, and the costs of doing so are non-trivial.

(I happen to know, professionally, what it costs to run video services at scale. No, I'm not discussing it on v.com.)

Edited: June 5, 2019, 11:37 PM · Lydeia leong
I don't know what they call "profit" but i see that the get revenue of 10 billion dollars, and maybe more today,
Where this money goes?
What they define as "profit"?

Of course if you pay the CEO and many others millions of dollars every year, or things like that there will be no official "profit".
I don't how much it cost to run it "technically" but I'm pretty sure it isn't 10 billions.

June 5, 2019, 11:38 PM · Again, I've done the arithmetic above. $12 billion isn't a lot considering the number of content creators being paid. The numbers are very much in line with what you'd expect for 55% of revenue going to creators as per the contract terms.
June 5, 2019, 11:48 PM · If google gives 55% to creators it means it gives more than 12 billion dollars to creators, right?

If with With 1.4 Million Monthly Viewers Earn Less Than $17,000 a Year, how you get to 12 billion?
(There are 7.3 billion on earth).

June 6, 2019, 12:14 AM · No, 55% of revenue means 55% of $12 billion, or $6.6 billion.

A small fraction of the creators are going to get the majority of that money, but remember that the top 3% of creators still means over 30,000 people, and the top 1% is over 10,000 people.

Edited: June 6, 2019, 12:15 AM · And even if it gives 6 billion to creators (half of the 12 billions earnings) how you get to 6 billion if 1.4 million viewers are 17,000 per year? If "the top 3% of earners on YouTube only make about $16k a year"
http://fortune.com/2018/02/27/youtube-success-poverty-wages/
Edited: June 6, 2019, 12:43 AM · 140 million views a month (100 times the threshold for the top 3%) puts you just outside the top 300 YouTube channels. That's more than 300 channels that each earn over $1.6 million. To earn $1 million a year, you need more than 87 million views a month -- which is accomplished by well over 500 channels. That's where the money is going. The top 10 people alone earn a combined $180 million -- the top 8 channels all exceed a billion views a month.

Or we can put it another way: 3% of the channels get 90% of the views. If you're at 1.4 million views a month, almost $6 billion of the estimated $6.6 billion going to creators has already been divided among the 30,000 people above you.

Edited: June 6, 2019, 1:06 AM · Andrew Haish

It is hard to talk exactly because we don't know the exact figures - but
You sure that the 12 billions include the 6.6 billion?

But lets say it is:
6.6 billion divided to 30,000 is 220,000 dollars on average. Not 17,000. 10 times more (if uou include the other 10 percent of traffic).

Also - why they take 45%?
Let's say you are a singer and the agent takes 45 percent - it is too much in my view, and it this case it isn't even an agent, just a website.

June 6, 2019, 1:06 AM · You really don't understand unequal distributions, do you? Sure, the 30,000 people above you would average $220k. But a very small percentage of them are earning a lot more than $220k, which means most are earning much less than $220k.

Keep in mind that there are over 23 million channels on YouTube. 22 million of them are costing YouTube money and not earning a single penny in ad revenue. The only way YouTube benefits from them is by collecting data on viewers that allows it to "recommend" related videos that are monetized.

June 6, 2019, 1:07 AM · @David

Your instinct is right that "technically" it doesn't cost billions to deliver videos on Youtube.

I am able to deliver video content (and I believe at a reasonable quality!) for only a few hundred dollars using a decomissioned tape drive, a $5 ethernet cable, and an old computer, and only $15 a month for a website domain.

When I talk to Professional DevOps Engineers, they personally attack me. Just because I use Microsoft Server and Windows Task Scheduler for my deployments! I am still delivering video with only minor technical compromise! WHY? Even though the software is good! THe difference is Windows has a "catchy" user interface, which people are unfairly biased against. They want only a boring "classical" black-and-white command line.

Why does Lydia get paid delivering scalable redundant cloud services when I have almost the same uptime provided I don't trip over the power cable and bring down my WEbsite? Because I don't have millions to spend on and "content delivery network" and "collocated servers"? It is ELITISM. I will post a demonstration of me emailing a video file to 1000 people and it has almost the same speed as Youtube! Even when sending across Pacific ocean. But of course "Professionals" say it is TOO SLOW for a viewer in Europe to do like this. They always ATTACK me because network latency can never be ZERO, so theY use it always as an excuse to say I am slower than Youtube!

Even when I posted my Disaster Recovery video (which is a very difficult THING!), where I do disaster recovery just like an engineer at Youtube, people didn't like it. They said things like "power cycling your router isn't redundancy" "you shouldn't plus your computer directly into the wall" and "why did you fall asleep for 6 hours?" even though I was doing "pop" disaster recovery at a high level. What is better? To have "acceptable" disaster recovery even when I go to lunch? Platform engineers SHoulD be Less Arrogant!

Edited: June 6, 2019, 1:29 AM · Andrew Hsieh
The distribution doesn't matter in this case - we talk about profits vs. expenses.

You said by yourself that 90% of the traffic is these 3%, and youtube pays by traffic.
That means that 90% of the money - of these 6.6 billion to creatores goes to these 3%. That means about 200,000 on average per channel. But the vast majority of them get 17,000.
(Unless there are thousands channels with millions of dollars per year).

Edited: June 6, 2019, 2:19 AM · And the 45% "tax" look to me as huge figure too, this is a lot of money- billions of dollars!.
Agents! Take 10-20 percent as much as i know.
June 6, 2019, 7:06 AM · Y'all haven't any more chance of fettering out YouTube's finances than Donald Trump's. My advice is: Practice slow scales in thirds, and try to make yourself useful to your employer.
Edited: June 6, 2019, 8:38 AM · @Paul Deck
You can't stay focused on the theme of the thread ... You go always to talk about me personally.
It's like that joke:
"let's stop talking about me. What do you think about me?"
I'm almost flattered;))


As i said i disagree strongly with The people here about the level of my playing,
Yes - the intonation isn't in classical level yet, but it gets better and might be in the future. And even if not, for average playing -"classical -pop" it might be enough.
For YouTube videos or recordings if it will be with some professional "fixing" as it done in many cases of pop and maybe even classical musicians it can be enough.


Also, the profit issue effects the level of playing:
To play well you have to practice. On violin especially. And it costs money. Ifci could practice 3 hours every day i for sure would have played better.

Edited: June 6, 2019, 8:51 AM · For example -
Videos of Paganini caprices on a bike with some professional "fixing" of intonation, as it is done with pop singers, in top speeds as i played could bring me already nice profit.
I think that You can agree with that - since you said it by yourself.
June 6, 2019, 10:18 AM · Videos of yourself playing the violin iffily, on a stationary bike will only work if you have a pleasant smiling appearance. I said this before. All popular middle of the road violinists smile all the time while they're playing. So do, by the way, successful politicians.
No one will watch a youtube video of a kind of angry looking man, whether he's playing the violin or watering the plants.
Edited: June 6, 2019, 10:52 AM · Everything is "personal" to you, David, including stuff that's not. You're not the center of the universe that you imagine yourself to be.

My point is simply that theorizing about YouTube's finances is a waste of time. If you've tried to make money by putting videos of yourself playing the violin on YouTube, and this approach has not brought you the revenue you were hoping for, you have several options:

(1) Blame YouTube for being "unfair" or whatever, and then whine about it to whomever will listen,
(2) Find a different way to distribute your product, one that's more "fair" than YouTube,
(3) Change/improve your product,
(4) Find another way to earn extra cash whilst playing the violin for your own enjoyment.

You don't need a smiling appearance to sell your videos. Just look here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl_Rt0PNxn4

Edited: June 6, 2019, 11:07 AM · @Herman West

If i will know that I'm going to get thousands of dollars from the video i will smile, believe me;)))


But Seriously - I'm not doing it in purpose - this is hard instrument - you have to be very concentrated. if i can look more realaxed i will. Maybe it is a function of how much you experienced too ans you have to "think" less where to pur the fingers.

There were famous violinists like Leonid kogan with "Serious" faces so i don't think this is so critical.

Edited: June 6, 2019, 11:27 AM · Paul. i enjoyed the little bread man, thanks.

Herman
quote “Videos of yourself playing the violin iffily, on a stationary bike will only work if you have a pleasant smiling appearance."

Like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtguPxcBMBU&list=RDgtguPxcBMBU&start_radio=1
This chap is pretty good and he does try to smile a bit, seems to have lots of views too.

I think if you stay true to yourself, and play for sheer love of a kind of music that makes you feel more alive, then people can see that, and will want to watch it.

If you try and fabricate something that you think people will want, and it’s not a success you are left with an empty heart.

I speak from experience as painter, and it is similar to my musical experience. It takes a while to be honest with yourself about why you play, and admit what you really love about the music and follow that, with disregard to money or praise.

Edited: June 6, 2019, 2:11 PM · Paul Deck

This YouTube/Facebook profits thing really isn't personal thing.
I started to play again on violin less then a year ago after 15 years of break,
But I'm talking about it in politics for years!. This is a very big political issue -
Bernie Sanders talks about these things constantly and just lately you had raise to 15 dollars per hour for workers in Amazon, right?

But now i find myself in this place personally as violin player, "a worker" for YouTube that feels and shows that there isn't a fair share of the profits.

June 6, 2019, 2:50 PM · Well David, you presumably own your violin. You as well own your recording equipment, as well as choose the time you spend practicing, recording, and uploading, and you can choose what you practice and what to upload, and where you upload it, and even how you choose to share it on this board.

In other words, you are someone who owns his means of production (your instrument and equipment), and can make determinants to resource allocation (what you upload, how often you upload, how you practice). Nobody is making you ride your [stationary] bike, no one is making you play fast with poor intonation.

As such, in Leftist economic theory, this grants you membership into the economic group known as the "Bourgeoisie"; this very directly separates you from "the Leftist worker", whose only economic ownership is his or her own labor.

I would think someone who studied political science at an elite university would not misuse words this way.

June 6, 2019, 3:43 PM · yes, Janice, those two Armenian guys try to have an effortless, pleasant expression that is essential for attracting an audience if you play middle-of-the-road stuff.
Just like Andre Rieu is always communicating it's fun and easy.
Edited: June 6, 2019, 5:26 PM · First of all, how much does YouTube really profit from people watching David Krakovich videos? My guess is they're losing money on you. If so, then if we're being "fair" then you should pay them a fraction of what they're losing?

If Amazon is raising its minimum wage, it's only partly because of public and political pressure. But also remember that unemployment is very low in the US and they need qualified workers. But they probably didn't have to go all the way to $15 -- so I'm glad they did. Apple, Target, and Costco are not far behind. Problem is these companies also farm out work to contractors (data entry, customer service, etc.) and wages for these companies can be very low and working conditions very poor. There was a lot in the news last year about contractor-employees at Google complaining about their wages and treatment.

Is that two guys in Janice's video or one? The names of the violinist and guitarist are the same in the credits....

Edited: June 6, 2019, 6:00 PM · Have you read the YouTube Terms of Service? By uploading a video you grant them a royalty-free license to use your content.
Edited: June 6, 2019, 10:48 PM · Paul Deck
YouTube profits from me already!:

Yes, i have 19 subscribers, but i have thousands of views of my videos.
Also - when people come because of my video they stay on YouTube and see other videos (to compare for example).

I'll give you an example- the video of the Armenian violinist that you saw here is because of me -
I'm now working on a version of this song and uploaded a teaser on my channel. that isn't famous song and probably people saw it when came to my channel to see my classical video that we discussed.
Now you have more views on YouTube of other videos.


Also - if i had profits - i could invest!- to do high quality video, with good professional accompaniment, much better violin, to take free time to practice, to promote!! It.
All of this can bring even more money.

June 6, 2019, 11:23 PM · Aww, how cute. You think YouTube gets a lot of profit out of your "thousands" of views.

YouTube videos get an aggregate of 5 billion views per day. That's about 150 billion a month. 1.8 trillion a year. This is why even a million views won't get you a ton of money.

Edited: June 6, 2019, 11:58 PM · Andrew Hsieh
So let's not pay money to workers in Amazon, this is huge organization and one worker doesn't matter?
June 7, 2019, 12:00 AM · "I'll give you an example- the video of the Armenian violinist that you saw here is because of me -"

this is what we're dealing with.

June 7, 2019, 12:01 AM · "I'll give you an example- the video of the Armenian violinist that you saw here is because of me -"

this is what we're dealing with.

Edited: June 7, 2019, 1:31 AM · Herman West

This song is national song from Azerbaijan,
I know it for years because i was born in close republic in Russia,
But even i saw the violin version for the first time few weeks ago and started to work on it, meanwhile i uploaded a teaser on my channel.

There's no way anyone here (people from USA) heard it before, especially the violin version.

Probably janice branley, who mentioned it, saw this on my channel and then saw the suggested video, or searched for it and saw the Armenian violinist version.
And now, more peole here went to YouTube and saw it.

I don't even mentioned it but now there are at lest 10 more views of the song in youtube because of my video. And maybe more - because if you go to YouTube you see few videos one after another (at least i do).

Edited: June 7, 2019, 1:38 AM · No, my point is that YouTube really doesn't make much money at all and doesn't have much money to pay out considering the total number of video views. Even if YouTube paid out 100% of its revenues to content creators, you'd hardly get anything with "thousands" of views and no ads on your channel -- that referral to a monetized video that you're talking about earned YouTube a fraction of a cent.
Edited: June 7, 2019, 1:45 AM · There's really no getting around it.

Everything in the universe revolves around the Cranky Fiddler / Politician.

However, seriously. You're not 40 years old yet. You will never be able to make a living playing the violin. You're just not good enough, and younger people, who play better, and have a less grandiose personality have been getting ahead of you for fifteen years.

Your plan of making it in politics did not pan out. It doesn't matter if that's because of the way it works in Israel, of because you're just not the kind of guy who makes people want to trust you with their future. (Why they vote for Netanyahu is another matter.)

You work in security services now. It would perhaps be a good idea to start thinking hard about a REALISTIC career path for the second half of your life - not involving pipe dreams like becoming a popular politician or a youtube phenom.

I can't believe I'm taking the time to tell you this, because talking about your future opportunities on a violin group is one of the things that's keeping you from a viable future, too.

June 7, 2019, 1:48 AM · Andrew Hsieh

We calculated it yesterday - you can see above:
YouTube "officially" make about 12 billion dollars, and take 45% of the revenue of each video. (Facebook doesn't give anything)

1! billion dollars is 500,000 channels that can get 2,000 dollars per month.
This is almost the everage full time job salary of people in the west.
And this is just 1 biilion.

Currently youtube pays just to 3% top channels on average about 17,000 dollars per year.
(I'm not sure - but i understand that this are about 30,000 people).

https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/even-youtube-stars-with-14-million-monthly-viewers-earn-less-than-17000-a-year-research-shows.html 

Edited: June 7, 2019, 1:58 AM · Herman west
Look, i know people here think I don't have ears;))), but i have, and eyes, and i can compare the levels. I also hear what people say "in real life" -
maybe not in the classical Music (the unpopular!!! Classical music,yes? That gives you minimum wages as professional) but in other syles, that are popular! Styles and have more money! In most cases, and that have less strict demands it might happen.

I still don't feel I'm good enough to perform live, i haven't played for 15 years and I'm still "recovering" my playing, but i i will feel good enough I'll try and we'll see.

June 7, 2019, 2:33 AM · And I'll tell you this -
In classical music there's very destructive attitude. You depress! People and act very arrogantly (not just on this site).

It is legitimate to have higher standards - it isn't legitimate to depress and mock musicians and students.

This is a very big problem politically too - because classical music funded by governments and it is "the teaching" official style:
If i was now in political office and saw such attitude it could cost people their jobs!:
You make people feel like nothing - I'm grown person with thick skin as politician therefore i ignore this - but many because of that stop to be interested in the music or play.

June 7, 2019, 3:46 AM · I posted my comment because of Herman.

This whole discussion seems to be a ‘ping pong’ exchange around the subject of money. Another direction would be to ask why anyone would post anything otherwise. Many people do, so why?

I use utube as another tool for learning. When I find something that makes me want to play it, I find the very best version available to ‘scaffold’ my learning. I dismantle it, slow it down, listen for every nuance.

Most recently I’ve been working on a composition by Dave Shepherd called ‘Origin of the world’ (Stop giggling at the back of the class). I soon learned courtesy of UTUBE that he composed and played it in Bb, while other lesser mortals transcribed it into C, so they could play with their other mortal mates on the accordion/squeezebox. My best versions were by
Andy Cutting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Nex0PCjPc

Sarah Loughran and Paul Young
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBX8Jx6tMOM

and of course the actual composer Dave Shepherd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D9tl-c1yAw

I would never post me playing it, because what could anyone use it for when they have all this wealth of knowledge available already.

So maybe we should ask ourselves not ‘what should we upload?” but “why should we?”

Edited: June 7, 2019, 4:43 AM · David, once more, you are okay in the first thee positions; extend your efforts up the fingerboard..

But hundreds of posts ago you introduced yourself by by massacring Paganini caprices. As I said in my very first reply, I would have been too embarrassed to put such a mess out on You-Tube, even if I could play as fast as you..

We don't mock people, we mock pretentiousness, whatever the style.

June 7, 2019, 6:28 AM · I didn't watch the Armenian violinist on YouTube because of you. I watched it because Janice posted the link here on violinist.com. I wasn't even using YouTube at the time.

I think it's unfair (not to mention needlessly unpleasant) to say that David was "massacring Paganini caprices" and calling his playing "such a mess." We don't do that to one another on this site, please let's not cross that line. David played No. 16 a lot better than I would have. He doesn't have a professional technique but he's an okay amateur violin player as they go.

Coming back to money, I took academic job when I had an offer in the private sector with a much higher salary. Why? Because I wanted to give it a go. Now I'm happy although my salary is still lower (maybe half to two thirds) compared to my private-sector counterparts, because I have an enjoyable job with a lot of freedom and great job-security with tenure. Money is not everything.

Edited: June 7, 2019, 7:12 AM · Paul, I stand corrected!

But if I tried those caprices today, they would indeed be a massacre and a mess, but I would not play them to anyone, let alone on YouTube!!

Actually, I used those words later in the threads, once we had been called "clowns" etc. At first I politely referred to intonation and tone....

June 7, 2019, 9:21 AM · Adrian Heath

People here, even professionals, and everywhere in classical music, afraid! To even upload their videos! Because they know they will be massacred! Publically.
So it isn't just my case.
I'm "The bold violinist" that dares.

One of the reasons that we can't compare my level is because it is so hard to find people in such advanced level that record at home with basic equipment - why? From what I've seen most of them are professionals!!! In such level (full Paganini caprices etc.).


This is a very problematic attitude. Since classical music is "The teaching style" - you simply depress the students.

June 7, 2019, 9:36 AM · Equally problematic, however, is insisting that your intonation problems are caused by your recording equipment. That's not true either.
June 7, 2019, 9:37 AM · In most cases - because people in classical music afraid to upload and discuss their videos - you arr comparing me to the the best professionally made videos and performances of the top violinists in the world.

I- who have limited time to practice, record at home with 200 dollars camera on violin that costs 500 dollars,
And you compare me to the best professionally made videos from TV! Of top soloists.

Edited: June 7, 2019, 9:47 AM · @Paul Deck
I'm not saying it is great, but it isn't so bad, and it gets better and better. especially now that I'm practicing.

Take for example the "Play with Ray" that i recorded lately - there are many home made videos of it on YouTube so you can compare and you feel that I'm at advanced level,
But most of the people that recorded it were kids and amateurs.

June 7, 2019, 10:23 AM · your intensily competitive nature kind of precludes succesfully working in every pursuit that requires amicable cooperation.

which is why I say go for Plumber.

June 7, 2019, 10:53 AM · Herman West

Maybe I'll go to be a plumber eventually - i don't mind, it pays in some cases more than a first violin in orcheatra.


You know that in Israel there are many Professional orchestra players that work in security as second job?
Probably in USA too.
With such salaries you have to work in other jobs.
You have now a very popular Congresswoman that studied politics - "International Affairs" and worked as a waitress, no? Alexandria Ocasio cortez.


I worked in security in the last years just because of the political campaign that failed just last month,
I have a "Profession" despite i didn't finish the degree - political science from probably the best University in Israel,
And i can do something there too.
But since I'm at high level on violin in classical! Music, i think I'll try it.
If there will be no demand I'll do something else.

June 7, 2019, 10:57 AM · You can adjust your expectations of "beginner, intermediate, and advanced" however you like. There are, of course, no hard and fast rules.

Keep in mind, the second violin part for the Bach double concerto is taught in Suzuki book 4, which is pretty squarely in the "beginner" level of the repertoire. Barring late-beginner-prodigies, most career violinists can play it with a higher degree of musicality and phrasing than your posted video before age 10.

Edited: June 7, 2019, 11:19 AM · James T

The fact that kids play bach concerto? So what?
I also played amd performed with vivaldi and bach concertos as a 10 years old kid.
The level is what matters.
You can feel that I'm in advanced level from the level!.

June 7, 2019, 11:51 AM · David, your practicing is bearing fruit!

"Since classical music is 'The teaching style' - you simply depress the students."
My students find me very demanding while being always encouraging and optimistic!
They are certainly not "depressed", and love to give of their best.

Edited: June 7, 2019, 12:37 PM · I don't mind to talk about my playing - but this thread is about facebook/YouTube and the profits there and we always go to my level of playing:

There are people on YouTube that just learned to play on violin as adults and have more subscribers then Hillary Hahn and millions of views,
So the level of my playing almost irrelevant here.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMGf-4TZDqNG97yqY5WPTCA

Edited: June 7, 2019, 12:41 PM · If you want to compare yourself not based on your ability play violin but on your ability to attract Youtube followers, I can offer feedback too.

Your level of attracting a legion thirsty male followers wearing a dress is not as high as violin noobie.

June 7, 2019, 12:57 PM · Imagine all the practice time wasted on this fruitless thread.

If money is the end-all, why not be a YouTube reviewer or streamer?

You can keep growing as a musician without this needless issue. If money is all you aspire to, there are many other easier and more effective ways to "make it" other than attempting to "show off" via YouTube.

June 7, 2019, 1:08 PM · David I watched your "Play with Ray" video. Your intonation is fine here but remember this piece is in Suzuki Book 4 and there's nothing higher than third position.

One thing I'm noticing in your video is that you are using only the upper portion of the bow, only coming even to the middle rarely. I was taught to play Bach with some "gusto" and including some earthy tone coming from the frog. And I can see clearly on the longer notes you're running out of bow at the very tip. Trust me, this is the first thing Mr. Chen will see.

Here's how the pros do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJh6i-t_I1Q

Edited: June 7, 2019, 3:45 PM · Paul Deck wrote:
"Here's how the pros do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJh6i-t_I1Q
________________________

Indeed.
Kakovich, when you can do it anywhere close to that, you too might get 3 million views on youtube.

In the violinmaking and repair business (my microcosm of expertise), lots of people think they are really hot. A good 75% of them actually are not, mostly because they failed to realize how much they didn't know.

Self-affirmation can have value, but it is fraught with many pitfalls.

Edited: June 7, 2019, 2:29 PM · Adalberto valla rivera
You probably right about the time spending here,
But i don't do it on my practice time. That's the great thing with internet you can do it anytime.

This thread was about YouTube and Facebook and to raise awareness of the profits system there - you take the discussion to my playing, not me.

Sometimes people here give good ideas and advices also and that's why I'm here. For examle - the advice to buy a new camera.

June 7, 2019, 2:37 PM · I do not hate your playing. Everybody is at their own level. I do not enjoy bullying/mocking others' playing-it's the attitude that we/youtube/"classical music"/the world owes you something that I dislike.

This is about yourself, not FB or YouTube. It's just disguised as a social justice issue.

In this world, there are much worse things to worry about than YouTube profits.

Be well.

Edited: June 8, 2019, 7:41 AM · "you take the discussion to my playing, not me."

We linked videos of your violin playing to this thread? No, you did that.

And the best advice you've got on "violinist.com" is to buy a new camera?

June 8, 2019, 6:58 AM · And David, you showed more modesty in this thread, and then awoke collective demons by describing your playing as "high level"!....
June 8, 2019, 7:28 AM · David K.,

It is very unfortunate if you really feel that way about the advice given to you here.

You could be a solid player but instead you avoid the hard work, I really do not understand why.

June 8, 2019, 8:39 AM · Paul Deck
I think that the best advice, or the best conclusion that i got from this site (and from other attempts with classical Professionals) is that i should not waste my time on classical world by trying to cooperate with it - and to try Solo.
June 8, 2019, 9:14 AM · Confused by the distinction between 'classical' and 'solo'. Are you going to try jazz or something?
Edited: June 8, 2019, 9:21 AM · Gemma K
Yes. Other styles too. But classical probably will stay the main.
But as soloist. I don't see how can i enter orchestra or something like that - these demands in classical world are too much for me.
June 8, 2019, 9:35 AM · yeah, that's clearly the best avenue.

Competing with Kavakos, Hahn and Hadelich should clearly solve your problems.

June 8, 2019, 11:37 AM · Maybe YouTube could have a feature called "YouTip" where, if you like a performance, and the performer (or owner of the IP) has "YouTip" turned on, then you could leave a quarter or a dollar or a fiver and maybe that would start to add up. Payment could be handled through PayPal or the Google Play Store, just enter your pin and leave a tip.
Edited: June 8, 2019, 2:27 PM · Paul Deck
You gave a great idea, to add "Patreon" feature to YouTube and Facebook etc.
And probably many asked that before and this is pretty "Obvious" feature, no?
If presidential candidates get their money that way, why not YouTubers?

But "for some reason" these companies don't give this option,

I think that it Is Because they know that in such situation the Youtubers will ask less ads!, Because they get the money from the people that don't love ads. And the ads don't give them money almost at all.

Now the interest of the Youtubers is more Ads as possible, because this is the only way to profit from youtube and most of the money from the ads goes to YouTube and Facebook.

Edited: June 8, 2019, 8:42 PM · No, probably you would not be allowed to activate YouTip without accepting ads in your content.

We have to remember that corporations like Google are private entities. When you establish your own company, you'd like to be allowed to set the rules by which it operates, right? To have this dictated to you by any sort of government would deny you your freedom, wouldn't it? You might say, well, your customers should have a say in your company's working rules. Wrong again. There is a famous franchise restaurant here in the US called Chick-fil-a (CFA) which famously is closed on Sundays. The bottom line is that if you don't like the way a company does business, don't buy their products or services.

June 8, 2019, 6:12 PM · If there were Patreon-style contributions, Google would still take a cut and make money that way, just like Patreon does.
June 8, 2019, 8:32 PM · Oops, I wasn't aware of Patreon. Oh well.

Anyway it could still work for YouTube because of their huge market share. Yes they could take a share of your tips, and you could contribute on those terms or not.

I've never played a gig where the house took a cut of my tips, except for one restaurant -- infamous among local musicians -- where the house takes ALL your tips and only gives you back what you earned in excess of your guarantee. In other words they make up your guarantee out of your tips first. Again, one can take that or leave it, but the problem is that their guarantee is well below scale. I will not play there under those terms.

June 8, 2019, 9:10 PM · Adding Patreon to Youtube?

I feel like this already exists.

It's called Patreon.

Edited: June 8, 2019, 11:45 PM · Hey, my latest YouTube video has 25 views and I have 8 subscribers. Surely I have generated at least a penny of value! ;-)

Edited: June 9, 2019, 12:27 AM · Lydia leong
This is the point:
When it is a money!, Youtube/facebook can take just a small cut- probably 5-12% or something like that. As Patreon.

Now- youtube takes 45% from the ads revenue officially, and this is just part of it because it has more profits i guess from the information etc.
Facebook probably takes 99% percent of the revenue because it gives nothing it most cases to the creators.

June 9, 2019, 12:14 PM · James sorry I admitted above I hadnt heard of patreon.

But maybe thats the point.

Edited: June 9, 2019, 2:26 PM · James T
That's the problem:
That people don't see the problem:

1. Patreon is separate app, very good one, but separate- they have to Integrate it to YouTube/Facebook To make it 1 click.
It seems not a big deal but that is a big deal for many.

2. The most important thing:
We already pay to YouTube/Facebook etc. for the commercials - because the companies that pay for these ads get the money to do it from us.
That's why "Famous" products in most cases cost more.

Therefore if Youtube/Facebook takes almost fully the revenue from the ads and don't give it to the Youtubers - and we fund the Youtubers through Patreon instead - it is like paying twice!!!.

Edited: June 9, 2019, 5:46 PM · David, you have a choice: You can either use YouTube (or Patreon) according to their terms, or you can do something else. That's how the service industry works: If you don't like the service, don't use it. (If YouTube is discriminating against you, that's another matter that is covered by the various laws within the US and probably elsewhere too.)

What you seem to be saying is that you have no other option because only YouTube offers the user base and market penetration. Essentially, you are claiming that YouTube holds a monopoly on user-provided video content. Unfortunately, we do not live in the days of Standard Oil. There have been seismic shifts in antitrust law over the last 50 years and the likelihood of breaking up YouTube or compelling it to change its business model just so users can make more money from their content seems vanishingly small.

If you are hoping that many others will band together with you so that these complaints can be heard with a common voice, thereby compelling YouTube to change its policies, that may be a noble and wholesome objective, but the bar for that is going to be pretty high as well. On the other side of the fence, YouTube's shareholders are hoping the company will apply the stingiest and most ruthlessly profitable business model their executives can get away with.

June 9, 2019, 7:33 PM · Well, YouTube is not the only video hosting site on the planet, not by a long margin. You could choose any number of video hosting sites for businesses, pay for the video hosting and delivery, and keep 100% of the revenue for yourself.

When you use YouTube, the ad revenue covers the distribution costs. You can get an ad-free experience if you're willing to cover those distribution costs yourself.

Edited: June 10, 2019, 12:41 AM · Paul Deck, Lydia Leong

What you are saying now is a "Republican" economical theory that almost never works. Especially with big corporations, It's a fiction!:

People can't "Just leave" to something better if they don't like something in most cases:
These companies as youtube and Facebook are in fact Monopolies,
You can "Leave" them officially, but if you leave alone it's like you exaile yourself from the world.

You have to move with everyone to another platform (and this is too big task) or you have to "Interfere" in its policies and demand things.
That's the idea behind unions, and anti-monopoly government policies.

June 10, 2019, 11:40 AM · David there are many musicians unions across the world that help each other get jobs and support each other. You just happen to have a fixation on only going through Youtube and refuse to go through any other channel. I don't know why...although I have my suspicions.

Here is a link to a musician's union in Israel:

http://musiciansunion.org.il/?page_id=140

Maybe they can help you de-couple from Youtube...and you can even get paid for your work.

June 10, 2019, 4:39 PM · I like your Franck piece Mrs. Leong.
Edited: June 11, 2019, 12:13 AM · James T

I don't understand why people here think that I'm against "formal" ways as auditions or cooperation with Musical unions.

But currently I'm still not official musician or performer - how can i approach such unions from this position?,
And about auditios too -
I decided just last month that I'm going to try it.

Edited: June 11, 2019, 3:20 PM · David it's not "a fiction." It's a fact. The current state of antitrust law in the United States is not within a hundred miles of slapping YouTube down (i.e., breaking it up) because of its status as a monopoly.

In the US, what I have seen (which is admittedly quite limited) is that musicians are unionized for the purpose of playing in salaried and fee-for-service orchestras (including Broadway and Las Vegas shows), and for making studio recordings, and for organizing that work through a managed system of contracts and referrals.

People who play gigs on the weekends are not commonly union members, although this might vary by location to some extent. I've never been asked to prove union membership even when subbing in a union gig.


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