Classical Music - Monarchs/Dictators style?
I think that some of the problems related to the unpopularity of the classical music are related to the fact that it is Historically a Monarchs/kings/dictators style.
And many of the things in it have "Dictatorship"/"Monarchy" style abuse!
Both of the Audience and the players:
Sometimes the demands and the music in Classical Music are like a torture!, for the player and the Audience.
The pop music for instance is "American"/"Freedom" style - and is less "Tight":
It is proffesional, but also very "Catchy" and easy for the Audience and the players.
I personally promote the "Classical-Pop" Style that
Has the aim to combine "Catchyness" with "High level professionalism", both musically and technically.
Currently the ideas of this style are:
1. The music should be catchy as possible, And easy to listen to.
2. High level, "Classical" level performances. Both musically and technically.
3. You can edit the classical pieces as you wish- cut parts, merge, even glue different pieces etc. In orderfor it to be catchy.
4. New instruments are legitimate (as long as the high level professionalism is maintained).
5. "Relative" approach to intonation accuracy and other mistakes- better intonation is preferred and appreciated, but the Barrier for proffesional playing is decided by the player and the public- if the player and the public feel it is good enough, it is good enough.
Kings/Dictators don't give a damn about the average people and players in most cases,
David I hate to relay what seems to be obvious.
A stretch. Modern nation rulers may not even care about classical. I am sure that there are plenty of non-dictators of democratic nations that, whether they listen to classical or not, are not thinking of the people, but more of their pockets and personal reputation. It's easy to say "I work for the people" than actually being motivated for that very reason.
You need to know more about music history to make any kind of argument of this sort that doesn't sound like a rant.
Classical music has developed in a different way than folk/popular music, with very different purposes. While folk tunes were usually played just for fun, classical music was different, aiming for the sublime. It was not for the average illiterate people of that time, but for the rulers, nobles, wealthy and cultured people. I don't think it is abusive. Just different. And its tendency to shine and be the best and most sophisticated music is what makes classical music so interesting.
The same can be said about good food, large houses, leisure time, and nice clothes. If you were hoi polloi, you got none of them; if you were a monarch/dictator, you enjoyed them. Surely, the appropriate dress we should aspire to are cutoffs and burgers. (And while some always do, mostly aim for that level of sophistical only sometimes.)
I didn't say that Classical Music is bad because it was "Monarchs" music,
David, you have ignored several of my questions making me wonder of you read any responses.
Your point on the driving force for composition (but not audience appreciation, see below) is correct - but only for a very limited part of the the classical music era, that of the Classical (note caps). For sure, during that time rulers were the main patrons of music and, hence, the music was composed to satisfy the money. However, the Baroque era was funded to a large part by the church (Bach Vivaldi etc) and the church made music to glorify god and bring in the poplulace - both needs. Beethoven (and Napoleon) killed the ruler-patronage system and composition WAS dominated by bringing in the audience.
A debate about whether or not such-and-such music is "classical" is pointless.
Simon Cowell says, "whatever."
This is about intonation again, isn't it? Intonation requirements in pop music are hardly less strict than in classical music. In fact, because pop music is generally simpler, it's easier to hear intonation errors, which means you may have to be more in tune.
David, I don't know what bee got in your bonnet, but I can hardly make any sense of your rethoric. Classical music is what it is, just like any other music it evolves with time. You either like it or you don't and nobody is forcing you to listen to it. Frankly I don't see how harmony can be dictatorial, that makes no sense to me. Church and aristocracy are the only ones who could afford the composers and the musicians to perform, that is just the way it is and thanks to them we can all enjoy the music today. What is catchy now, would have most likely horrified just about everyone, including the not so wealthy at the time Beethoven composed his masterpieces and would likely have been perceived in a very negative way. You can't apply modern views to something written perhaps hundreds of years ago. I do however wonder about some "modern classical music" if that can even be called music, and that's open for debate.
David, I see where you are coming from regarding the expectations of technical perfection in classical music and your concept of "classical pop."
Actually, with the advent of youtube, you can self-promote with almost no money at all.
It should be noted that we didn't used to have this distinction between "popular music" and "art music" to this extent, either. Schubert's songs were routinely performed alongside that of composers of popular vocal music during his time period, for instance. And a significant chunk of Romantic-era repertoire, especially chamber music, was "house music", written for the self-performance and entertainment of the middle classes within their own homes.
David, I have played a good deal of "catchy" music in a well-known dance venue in Paris (La Coupole, Boulevard Montparnasse). If folks didn't get up and dance, we would quickly switch to a "catchier" tango or waltz. If I played more than one or two missed or out-of-tune notes, the dancers would complain. Each dance lasted five minutes.
David, I and my colleagues play in tune like the violinists you mention, but with occasional lapses.
Okay, I think David just said classical music can't be catchy.
The term "classical music" is a weird term.
"Classical" means music that is played on classical acoustic instruments. "Viennese Classicism" is a particular style from the latter half of the 18th century.
His intonation, though?
I don't understand why he doesn't just quit his "job" and start touring.
Go for it,D. K., many wonderful things are possible with other people's money. Forgive me for using a quasi-marxist analysis, but at various times in western history the musical styles will reflect the values and priorities of the dominant social institutions that provide the financial support of the arts. Music History Synopsis in one paragraph: In the middle ages it was the church, then the hereditary,landed aristocracy. The nineteenth century saw the first great wave of democratisation; the new industrial and merchant classes paid for the the very large opera houses and the large symphony orchestra. In the 20th century, "classical" composers were employed by government sponsored university music departments, and much of that music exhibits a gratuitous dissonance, complexity, and obscurity. Meanwhile, in the lower classes there was a folk, or traditional, or common localized music cultures, unfunded, isolated, not notated until the 19th century. After the invention of recording, that undercurrent of popular music became the dominant musical force. Just compare the earnings of an Andrew Lloyd Weber, John Williams, or Lennon & McCartney, with the typical PhD music composition professor.
"David, I and my colleagues play in tune like the violinists you mention (Julia fischer/Hillary Hahn), but with occasional lapses."
Intonation is a must no matter the style. You can have different types of intonation in different styles but a style without focus on intonation doesn't make any sense.
Michael - That's exactly what I was thinking. I was going to point out that pianos are tuned in equal temperament.
David, in your last post you wrote: "I personally prefer first and foremost to play the piece fully, in good speed and really to Express what i wanted, preferably in high technical level(virtuousity etc.)
I agree with Joel's views on the basis for the backing of music.
Most good players play more in tune than a piano does. And they need not be well-known soloists to achieve this. Ms. Hahn and most others mentioned do play with better intonation than a modern piano for sure.
We live in an era where anyone can become a superstar without any kind of sponsorship. The top-grossing YouTube channel right now is a 7-year-old boy who reviews toys.
If you can find a novelty of some kind that people want to seeYouTube can be successful. Playing violin whilst riding a unicycle or something like that.Honestly that might not be enough.You might need to play a difficult concerto whilst riding a unicycle down a mountain naked.
Well someone has already done playing the violin while skydiving naked.
Rodger, I heard about that one. That was, uh, interesting...
Piano style equal temperament is not out of tune, but a marvelous compromise. A well-tuned quality piano playing things like Chopin is wonderful. All the intervals are a little different from ideal just or melodic tuning. The only one that really bothers me is the major third, about 10 cents (10%) "wrong". I frequently do judging or Jury panels. My Intonation scale is 1-->5, 1) -perfect, amazing, consistently +/- 5 c. 2) good, or equal-tempered +/- 10 c. 3-4) some notes bent in the wrong direction +/- 25 c. 5) unacceptable, playing in the cracks, +/- 50 c. D.K. is at 3 or 4, needs improvement.
Have y'all tried looking this guy up online?
Paganini was praised for his perfect intonation. I just stumbled across this fact last night in the introduction to Baillot's
David, I'll be more modest!
I don't know why I keep reading when I see him as the author of a thread. All it does is infuriate me.
Here is a good solution for Classical music world "Professionals" to be less arrogant and snobs:
Other styles have fantastic true professionals, too. Who play in tune.
...and audiences who hear in tune!
New popular music artists struggle just as much as some classical artists do. Rich, well to do musicians are rare, and not the norm, be it classical or polka.
I don't think I've ever been to a professional classical music concert that had distracting intonation issues, but I have been to a number of metal and rock shows where the singers and sometimes guitar players couldn't sing/play in pitch.
No one needs to "listen to [your] suggestions," David. I mean, you're basically raving here. You are clearly pretty ignorant about popular music and you aren't exactly impressing me with your knowledge of classical music, either. Make your damned music and see if you can sell it. That's it. Quit telling other people what to do. It makes you sound like a... wait for it... dictator or monarch!
I know that this is just a "Forum", but you pretty much say what people in classical world say,
I and many others did not tell you to quit, but to make it (the Caprice, and all of your playing) perfect with careful practice. Are you open to that? All evidence points to the contrary, but there's always hope for those who work hard and intelligently at what they love-if they do.
David, according to the recent poll, 20% of v.com members are not confident about intonation. These are the very folk who ask others how to improve.
I won't quit, that's for sure.
Errors of up to 30 cents are not reasonable intonation, not even for pop. If two people in a section are off by 30 cents in opposite directions, they're more than a quarter tone apart -- they won't even be perceived as playing the same note.
Well @David, you certainly don't get a job in an orchestra by sending videos to the orchestra. You do need to participate in a contest, usually it is called "audition" and not contest. It is in fact a competition, actually just like any job where there are many applicants you are competing for the job.
I'd add: for any professional orchestra, 99% of the people auditioning can play fast, and in tune within +/- 10 cents while they're doing it. They have to, seeing as the Don Juan excerpt and the Schumann 2nd Symphony scherzo excerpt are commonly required. The main way to distinguish yourself from the other 200 candidates who can all play fast passages in tempo and in tune is to play those excerpts in tempo, in tune,
David, I think you should find some like-minded musicians and have a festival. Below (and Free!) is an idea for a program that speaks to some of the ideas you outlined in your original post.
This game could get kind of fun.
Some of these made me giggle a lot.
Your intonation is acceptable at a slower tempo. We knew that already. It's definitely not acceptable in either of the Paganini caprices we've heard, even when you've slowed them down a bit.
Singers vs violinists?
Roger st- pierre
David many of us have already said it, you are certainly good for an amateur, and we believe you had a strong education when you were younger. At the same time we all have said many times, you are certainly not "good" as in "international level professional". Furthermore, it is also already very clear to all of us that you, yourself, do think you are really that good. So, there is a disagreement. What more can we do about it? Both sides have given their opinions to death. What is there left to discuss? When are you going to stop posting? So you will not stop until enough people here tell you you are really good? Isn't that spamming? If you just want to contribute videos of your playing (preferrably in the "performance" thread) that is fine of course. But you should stop these posts where you claim entitlement to general appreciation. And understand that when we say "well done David" we mean that as an amateur. It is unrealistic for you to become a professional. By all means continue as a hobby but do not spoil a perfect hobby! Join some amateur chamber music groups, they will love to have you. Or some amateur orchestra. Have fun but stop feeling entitled!
About a third of Americans listen to at least some classical music each month. That's not pop levels of listening, but it's certainly not trivial.
David, as someone said several hundred posts ago(...) you don't
The thing that seems to be holding you back, David, is your insistence that your playing is acceptable where it is. It sounded like you wanted to get better from your initial posts but then your reactions to the legitimate suggestions that you
Take away all the arguments about classical music, all the arguments about intonation and I can say that last video was a pleasant listen. I also thought the video work was very creative in capturing yourself twice like that.
"Catchiness" is irrelevant of music genre. Some find rap catchy, but I myself find Paganini quite catchy (listen to the guitar and violin works, and even the Mose variations are fun and "catchy".)
A friend of mine once said that Brahms was pop music. That was indeed a surprising opinion I must say.
Lars peter Schultz
Classical music-lovers don't "force"! Just as we love to spend more time with people we like.. We often prefer conversations over soundbites.
"in classical music you force! Yourself and others To understand! Why it is good.
This thread is becoming increasingly bizarre. If you like catchy pop music, why not just buy one of those "Taylor Swift songs arranged for violin with CD backing track" books and play/perform them in a local recital? Shar Music will sell it to you for like $15. I personally have a copy.
Playing a known piece is like meeting up with old friends.
Oh, there are more than several catchy classical pieces. I know because a friend recently asked me to come up with a playlist of catchy classical pieces for his 3-year-old son. Just thinking of pieces off the top of my head over three days, I've got almost 250 pieces on the list and it's still growing. Until now, I never really stopped to think of just how big the "popular" segment of the classical repertoire is.
No, because I don't know a single person who knows thousands of pop songs, or thousands of anything off the top of their head. My point is that the number of catchy classical pieces already exceeds the limits of the average person's memory. It's not a "very small amount."
We should make a thread compiling a list of catchy classical music pieces.
Let's define "Catchy" as something the average man, not professial musician, will like.
David, the term most often used when referring to music that's catchy is referred to as the "Hook" here in the west. If you tell a pop musician you're looking for the hook he will immediately know what you mean by that.Not that I always trust Wikipedia for my info but this is an accurate description.
It was a joke, but you know what? Who cares. It will probably be a joke that has gone too far, but whatever.
Still not sure what point you're trying to make. That there aren't enough people playing pop music on Youtube? I personally beg to differ. Just put [song name] + violin cover into Youtube and you get tons of people actually doing this, with varying degrees of skill and view counts. Sure, attractive young white girls generally dominate the view counts, but then sometimes you get indian guy playing baroque style Taylor Swift.
Pop music is manufactured for two reasons:
Now Scott, this is why some see classical musicians as snobby. My wife listens to pop music in the car and she is a little past 18.I'm trying to take the shovel away before you dig any deeper ;)
The idea is to create a professional! style "Classical-Pop" that is more "common" style:
"Now Scott, this is why some see classical musicians as snobby. My wife listens to pop music in the car and she is a little past 18.I'm trying to take the shovel away before you dig any deeper ;)"
But if we're continuing this analogy, how many people who aim to call themselves chefs aim to make McDonald's?
I think people sometimes talk about different things when talking about pop music, and there is usually also a difference between "pop music" and "popular music".
Well, if you're trying to convince me or this board that Erlkonig doesn't have a high level of professional respect and admiration around it I'm not sure you're going to succeed. Everyone here would be impressed at anybody that could pull it off. That piece is very popular as an encore for a reason, although I'm not sure where it fits into your classical pop/mcdonalds analogy. The Erl King is like the haute molecular gastronomy of classical music.
But people do do this stuff at "hIgH pRoFeSsIoNaL lEvEl" David!
David. I’m trying to figure out what fits in your model of classical pop. Does the content of this YouTube video fit what you are aspiring towards making?
It is another proof that i don't invent something new or "Crazy" - people do it already professionaly very seriously.
Note that there's no compromise of intonation in that ensemble.
It's not a new style.
And again, i think you are very anfair to my personal intonation -
I'm not really sure that I'd call David Russel (Guitar), The Piano guys (well..), Nigel Kennedy, Liberace, Empire Brass, Jenny Oaks Baker, Ferrante & Teicher, Virgil Fox, and Andre Kostelanetz singers but you do you.
The ability to not being judged by sloppy intonation. Being loved whether one plays in tune or otherwise. That appears to be desired standard of this music style.
@Adalbeto valle rivera
Well, no, people don't say pop musicians shouldn't sing. Look, there's a reason that autotune exists. It's to make sure that recordings are in tune. There's a reason so much music (there's a Spotify data analysis somewhere out there showing this) is written in D, G, D, A major and like, A, B, and E minor. It's because it's easy to play in tune on guitar and piano (and violin, as it turns out). Believe it or not, the intonation standards for pop music are pretty strict (as I noted above, it's not as if classical music has a 9/10 bar for intonation, but pop music only has 6/10), it's just that generally, they're written with less sophisticated chords, and only within certain dynamic and pitch ranges. This of course doesn't apply to every hit, but it's good to keep in mind as a general rule-
But both of those are self-regulating traits and decided by the audience.
Uh, the Elo rating system requires head-to-head "games" between competitors. How exactly is this supposed to work -- Paganini caprice racing?
I don't see how a rating system is any different than an audition for a top slot. In fact popular music already has such a system - records sold.
That's really apples and oranges.
Also no, I don't care if you're a socialist and wouldn't call someone that based on this conversation.
The ticket prices as indicator are "relative" too-
I'd be willing to bet I could get a private concert from Joshua Bell for a lot less than I could get a private concert from Taylor Swift.
Michael I would completely agree
"Just because adults listen to pop doesn't make it any better. It is what it is. I'm sure there were some nostalgic adults in the hall at the recent KISS performance in Portland. Not all pop is bad, but popular music has stagnated as badly--or worse--than lat Baroque or Viennese classicism. Can you imagine being stuck in 1700 or 1780? How did those people not die from hearing the same stuff over and over?"
David, you have exceeded your quota of quotation marks.
If anyone on here is interested on how modern pop music is developed, I can recommend a short book called "The Sound Machine: Inside the Hit Factory" that talks about how the lines and hooks for top artists these days written and shopped around.
I thought it was like, one middle-aged Norwegian dude and one American dude. Mostly the Norwegian guy though.
...and one each for all of us who can't resist flogging the same horse!!
[Removed. I did it wrong anyways, and I took down the original so nobody can see it.]
If the subject is dead, people just stop responding. But David's topics inspire people to come up with lots of replies with great ideas.
Lars - uh, it was a joke. Anyways, I'm learning a ton from these threads about intonation and stuff, even if it's not really directed towards me, at least others can get something useful out of it.
Nina, yes the amount of stuff coming up in these threads is amazing. Gives a lot of food for thought.
Random violinist at 34th Street subway station (NYC) just now, playing "catchy" Piazzolla style tango. Don't know the player, didn't look at her face (was passing by). Perfectly in tune, not strictly classical (likely classically trained, but so is Mr. Krakovich.)
@Lars peter Shultz
I think the accurate defension will be a "School" in "Classical pop".
David, what happens if the public doesn't feel it's good enough, based on intonation? Does the player listen to them?
To add to Mr. Wilkin's last statement, I disagree with your penchant for making yourself the victim of "mean classical snobs", when it's *your* problem. It's not about pop, catchiness, or the "common people vs the elite." You lack the discipline to make your artistry better, and then scapegoat your flaws unto others, be it members of this forum or the classical world, finding a false sense of refuge in the supposed "catchiness" of "commercial" pop, deluding yourself into believing that sloppy playing is the main "trait" of pop music.
In David's Nocturne video, the vibrato and his tone bother me vastly more than the intonation.
@Scott Cole, I read those points you made on music genre. Thanks for the clarification. I once was a follower of fad and fashion always looking for the most recent music from my favorite bands. Yes I remember Rush.I was intrigued by some of what they were doing at the time.I attributed many of my feelings about music being stagnant to 1000 listens of one song or top 40 that never stops for years and years. That might be some of it. I think now the bar has been lowered though in many cases. I can't make a blanket statement and live with it on this because I think good talent is out there.But yeah, generally it's bland to me and I no longer care what's out there according to fad or popularity. Some of that might be age.I am probably the very worst connoisseur of what is current. I know what I like. That's it:) I am probably the exception and not the rule.I believe there is always a way to make the existing innovative,the recipe might be very similar in construct.Probably not any ground breaking results at this point though.We haven't trained poodles to sing yet. Maybe different enough to interest the masses.
Ya know what, that was funny but is wasn't very professional and it was at David's expense. I'm taking that down. I apologize for getting carried away.
Understood and thanks. I didn't want to address you incorrectly.
And mine isn't appearing anyways (no idea why) so I'll delete mine as well. Maybe I should follow through with Adrian's suggestion of making one for myself. Hm.
Well, Timothy, at least I have a new meme template now. And it's interesting to see that Mr. Krakovich here doesn't respond to any slightly harsh jokes about him, but only to sincere posting. Typically in a negative way, unfortunately.
@Lars peter shultz
"If the "relative intonation" isn't enough for the public the player can't perform anyway."
@James T haha
Nina I appreciated your help. I'm glad you didn't end up as my partner in crime :) Even if I strongly disagree with someone or think they are "out there" a bit I try to put myself in their shoes and wouldn't want someone doing that to me so I reconsidered. I want to respect everyone no matter who they are or what they think.
My personal experience is that the top levels of non-classical, pop, commercial musicians are just as serious about their craft as classical musicians.
Also, how exactly can someone whose intonation error is +/- 30 cents have a "high level of playing"?
Andrew, don't you know?
I started already to compose, and soon i will upload very Technical variations to known popular songs, i will upload soon and you will see...
And again - i don't agree with the comments that my intonation is so bad, it is even good in parts in my view, and anyway i work on it, and i believe it will be improved.
No, David, in the easier, slower stuff, your intonation is "acceptable", but the notes are not quite "centered", or your fingers are too stiff to make those tiny, instant corrections. In higher, faster passages, the intonation is chaotic, as if totally unprepared.
For the record, I'm much more impressed by under-tempo playing with good musicality and good intonation than the same piece played extremely fast and out of tune. A lot of people are capable of playing the Paganini caprices badly.
To add to the above, I'm more impressed by 'easier' repertoire played well, than a terribly executed 'difficult' piece.
If you really want to impress someone with speed you don't need to play a difficult piece like Paganini. Play a very fast piece which sticks to first position, and, if you really want it simple, a piece which keeps the key as indicated in the key signature without difficult modulations but still granted that you can play it well and you can impress a lot of people. It will actually be a lot more impressive than playing Paganini unless your Paganini performance is top-notch.
Who deleted my thread?
Posting on this thread since I'm guessing that the use of profanity will result in Laurie deleting a post:
Your thread deletion had nothing to do with this imaginary "classical monarchy" archrival of yours. It could have been to avoid thread clutter, and there were indeed inappropriate content that some did find offensive in that thread.
"The next time anyone will delete my thread or something I said will be the last time I'm commenting here." Promises, promises!