Classical Music - Monarchs/Dictators style?

February 6, 2019, 9:37 AM · I think that some of the problems related to the unpopularity of the classical music are related to the fact that it is Historically a Monarchs/kings/dictators style.

And many of the things in it have "Dictatorship"/"Monarchy" style abuse!
Both of the Audience and the players:
Sometimes the demands and the music in Classical Music are like a torture!, for the player and the Audience.

The pop music for instance is "American"/"Freedom" style - and is less "Tight":
It is proffesional, but also very "Catchy" and easy for the Audience and the players.

.

I personally promote the "Classical-Pop" Style that
Has the aim to combine "Catchyness" with "High level professionalism", both musically and technically.
https://www.violinist.com/discussion/thread.cfm?page=2278

Currently the ideas of this style are:
1. The music should be catchy as possible, And easy to listen to. 
2. High level, "Classical" level performances. Both musically and technically. 
3. You can edit the classical pieces as you wish- cut parts, merge, even glue different pieces etc. In orderfor it to be catchy. 
4. New instruments are legitimate (as long as the high level professionalism is maintained).
5. "Relative" approach to intonation accuracy and other mistakes- better intonation is preferred and appreciated, but the Barrier for proffesional playing is decided by the player and the public- if the player and the public feel it is good enough, it is good enough.

Replies (288)

February 6, 2019, 10:15 AM · ???
(My polite response!)
February 6, 2019, 10:27 AM · Andrew Victor
I don't say Classical Music is bad music of course, it is great and very proffesional and has very good things,
But it also has some "Abusive" aspects - both for the players and the audience:

Let's take for example the length of the pieces.
Or the secondary importance to the "Catchyness" - while in pop and folk music the catchyness is central.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 10:31 AM · Kings/Dictators don't give a damn about the average people and players in most cases,
Sometimes classical music feels the same.
February 6, 2019, 11:04 AM · pRofFesIoNaL!
You misspelled it again in your first comment. Bro, it's professional. You said it was autocorrect the first time. It clearly can't be.
aRgH (sarcasm levels through the ROOF right now)
February 6, 2019, 11:44 AM · David I hate to relay what seems to be obvious.

Rulers of countries were the only ones who could afford to put together large groups of professional(did I spell that right?) musicians. I don't see this as evil. I see it more as government supporting the arts, even if only for the narcissism of a dictator king at times. The "church" also supported music.Yes it was often
more of a political power than a religious body when using that term historically.Still great things came from it musically speaking. The crusades, not so much.

I don't think it's wise to argue the point classical .vs more modern types. How about we all co exist musically? You think one is better, fair enough. How about early Hebrew music? What do you think of it?

February 6, 2019, 11:57 AM · A stretch. Modern nation rulers may not even care about classical. I am sure that there are plenty of non-dictators of democratic nations that, whether they listen to classical or not, are not thinking of the people, but more of their pockets and personal reputation. It's easy to say "I work for the people" than actually being motivated for that very reason.

Perhaps in another era?

I don't see the Classical music world aa a tyrant, for there are plenty of humble musicians and music lovers who just play/enjoy it without any feelings of superiority attached-and there are plenty of snobs for other types of music for sure.

Snobbery in classical is inappropriate, however, and am sorry that stereotype seems to be so pervasive among classical music lovers.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 12:07 PM · You need to know more about music history to make any kind of argument of this sort that doesn't sound like a rant.

The history of music mirrors political and social history of Europe--no big surprise there--and, for example, you can see the violin being developed within the merchant classes of the Italian peninsula, and crossing over to interest from the aristocracy in southern Europe in the 16th century. The baroque era is infused with the dance music of the 17th century, most of which had its genesis in the folk dance music of the third estate.

It could be argued that the Classical style was based on a more aristocratic ideal--more of a rhetorical, language-and-emotion conversational style--echoed the Enlightenment's emphasis on rationality and reason. While it has philosophical underpinnings, the fact is that it was developed by composers and musicians who were third-estate servants, and a growing part of their audience were the upper echelons of the third-estate. As with political discourse in the Enlightenment, this craft in music proceeded in a revolutionary direction, through Beethoven into a Romantic style that owed a lot to the tastes of the growing middle class of the Industrial age.

So, in fact, your summary of the power dynamics expressed in European classical music has little relevance to what actually happened in this music tradition. I won't even get into your deep misunderstanding of American music, since you truly have no clue about American music. Anyway, there is no "style" until there is a market. Virtually no term describing a musical style was every promoted by artists--styles are created by people trying to sell music. Make whatever you make and try to sell it, David. Good luck.

February 6, 2019, 12:11 PM · Classical music has developed in a different way than folk/popular music, with very different purposes. While folk tunes were usually played just for fun, classical music was different, aiming for the sublime. It was not for the average illiterate people of that time, but for the rulers, nobles, wealthy and cultured people. I don't think it is abusive. Just different. And its tendency to shine and be the best and most sophisticated music is what makes classical music so interesting.

Today those huge differences in culture have disappeared, and we can enjoy every kind of music, regardless of our procedence. An amateur like me will never be able to play extremely difficult pieces. But they're meant to be played by professionals.

Should music be catchy? I think it depends. Some works are not extremely catchy, but they're still a joy to play and listen to (think of some of Bach's fugues, for instance). What path should classical music take? I don't know. Maybe it should fuse with jazz. Maybe it should try to return to its roots. Maybe it will just disappear. Time will tell.

But music reflects a part of society and has to be put in context. We can't analyse past times with our current moral principles, because we will probably fall on error.

I'm an amateur violin and piano player with no formal musical education, so what I wrote above are just random thoughts that can be completely wrong.

February 6, 2019, 12:15 PM · The same can be said about good food, large houses, leisure time, and nice clothes. If you were hoi polloi, you got none of them; if you were a monarch/dictator, you enjoyed them. Surely, the appropriate dress we should aspire to are cutoffs and burgers. (And while some always do, mostly aim for that level of sophistical only sometimes.)
Of course, in the 19th century it was the bourgeoisie that drove a lot of music. A Beethoven symphony or Tchaikovsky piano work was enjoyed by more than just monarchs.
February 6, 2019, 12:27 PM · I didn't say that Classical Music is bad because it was "Monarchs" music,
Monarchs have very good aspects too -
Delicacy, professional approach etc.

What is said is that it has some aspects!! That are "Dictators style" abusive aspects.

That's why i call the style "Classical! Pop" and not "Pop" -
Because it has both "Classical" professional high quality aspets with more "Pop" aspects - as "Catcyness".

February 6, 2019, 12:38 PM · David, you have ignored several of my questions making me wonder of you read any responses.

Please explain this statement-
"What is said is that it has some aspects!! That are "Dictators style" abusive aspects."

I have never seen abusive music unless maybe we talk about Marilynn Manson.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 12:50 PM · Timothy smith
I read all the responses.

And I'll give you an example to the "Abusive" part:

Let's say you make a classical show and play only the "Good parts" from different classical pieces,
Is it "Classical Music"?
Not exactly, right? Even if it clearly is.
And Why? Because you made it more "Popular".

This piece here, "Tico Tico", played by Berlin Philharmonical and Daniel Barenboim, that i see as leading example to Classical-pop ,
Is this a classical music???
No. Right?
Why not? This are top classical performers and high quality playing.
And why not? Because! It is catchy!.

Maybe even the players see it a little bit as a "Joke".

Edited: February 6, 2019, 12:45 PM · Your point on the driving force for composition (but not audience appreciation, see below) is correct - but only for a very limited part of the the classical music era, that of the Classical (note caps). For sure, during that time rulers were the main patrons of music and, hence, the music was composed to satisfy the money. However, the Baroque era was funded to a large part by the church (Bach Vivaldi etc) and the church made music to glorify god and bring in the poplulace - both needs. Beethoven (and Napoleon) killed the ruler-patronage system and composition WAS dominated by bringing in the audience.

So 'No' your interpretation is limited and only has a very narrow application. I should add that the music that WAS written for wealthy patrons contains much of the most popular music to date (as does the late Romantic era audience-pleasers).

If you want to advance such a thesis you may have much more success with grass-roots vs intellectual compositions - it is in the latter that art forms often diverge from 'audience-pleasing' and, I hasten to add' we get some of our most deeply moving and provocative forms of the art.

February 6, 2019, 1:19 PM · A debate about whether or not such-and-such music is "classical" is pointless.
February 6, 2019, 1:20 PM · Simon Cowell says, "whatever."
Edited: February 6, 2019, 1:42 PM · This is about intonation again, isn't it? Intonation requirements in pop music are hardly less strict than in classical music. In fact, because pop music is generally simpler, it's easier to hear intonation errors, which means you may have to be more in tune.

If you spent half as much time working on intonation as you do arguing that it's not necessary, you'd be a much better violinist.

Oh, as for being historically a monarchs' style...

The 25 most frequently played orchestral works over the last 10 years are all from composers from after the ruler-patronage system ended. The earliest composer represented in those 25 pieces is Beethoven. Extend the list to the 50 most frequently played orchestral works, and there are exactly two pieces from before Beethoven: Handel's Messiah and Mozart's "Jupiter" Symphony. It turns out... neither of those pieces was commissioned by a monarch or aristocrat either. Both were composed for public concerts and the composers expected to be paid from ticket sales to the public.

So... exactly ZERO of the 50 most frequently played orchestral works were composed for monarchs. The composers of all 50 were depending on ticket sales to be paid for those pieces. How is classical music a monarchs' style, again?

Edited: February 6, 2019, 2:19 PM · David, I don't know what bee got in your bonnet, but I can hardly make any sense of your rethoric. Classical music is what it is, just like any other music it evolves with time. You either like it or you don't and nobody is forcing you to listen to it. Frankly I don't see how harmony can be dictatorial, that makes no sense to me. Church and aristocracy are the only ones who could afford the composers and the musicians to perform, that is just the way it is and thanks to them we can all enjoy the music today. What is catchy now, would have most likely horrified just about everyone, including the not so wealthy at the time Beethoven composed his masterpieces and would likely have been perceived in a very negative way. You can't apply modern views to something written perhaps hundreds of years ago. I do however wonder about some "modern classical music" if that can even be called music, and that's open for debate.
Edited: February 6, 2019, 2:52 PM · David, I see where you are coming from regarding the expectations of technical perfection in classical music and your concept of "classical pop."

You are free to pursue this livelihood -- nobody (certainly nobody in this web forum) is preventing you from doing that! All you need to do is hire an accompanist or an orchestra, book a studio or recording venue, and cut an album. Meanwhile, rent a large auditorium somewhere near your home, and again hire an accompanist. Advertise your performance. Because you are trying to attract a fan base, you might want to set your ticket prices a little lower at first, for example US$20.

My point is that instead of arguing about this endlessly, why don't you prove it by doing it? You probably don't need more than, say, US$250,000 to get started, which you can take from your savings or borrow from a bank using your real estate equity as collateral.

February 6, 2019, 2:58 PM · Actually, with the advent of youtube, you can self-promote with almost no money at all.

I got like 300 subscribers with only a couple of pop songs that I recorded in a couple of takes. I put almost zero effort in. If I was to keep producing content, I would keep getting subscribers.

Something I have learned is that youtubers don't care about audio-only though. There HAS to be a video or they won't care, no matter how good/bad the sound is.

February 6, 2019, 3:15 PM · It should be noted that we didn't used to have this distinction between "popular music" and "art music" to this extent, either. Schubert's songs were routinely performed alongside that of composers of popular vocal music during his time period, for instance. And a significant chunk of Romantic-era repertoire, especially chamber music, was "house music", written for the self-performance and entertainment of the middle classes within their own homes.
February 6, 2019, 3:25 PM · Andrew Hsieh
The intonation thing is a major thing.
(And on violin especially - intonation is huge "Thing").
But it isn't the only thing that I'm talking about:

The "Tico Tico" video was played by Berliner philharmoniker, they have intonation problems??? No. They played it at top technical level,
But can You define the piece as classical music???
Why not? Because it is "Catchy".right?

And about my personal intonation- as i said - i don't agree with you, i play with pretty ok intonation in my view, maybe even good one in parts, especially that i play very complicated pieces,

I don't say it is perfect and I'm still working on it, and if you can play better it is appreciated. My debate was about the acceptable "Professional" bar - and i said the bar for "acceptable" intonation should be defined by the player and the public (No. 5 on the list).

Edited: February 6, 2019, 4:18 PM · Elise Stanley
As much as i know (and i know - my academical profession is "Political Science")
the royalty was in Europe till the start of the 20th century:
Great Britain, Austria-Hungarian Empire , Prussia, Russian Empire etc.

But you right - there was a change - the Monarchy became weaker and the bourgeoisie became stronger.
And i guess it effected the Classical Music too.

But still - it wasn't a "Public" support, as we see in pop today - lower classes etc., but support of the elites- Monarchs and bourgeoisie.
(As much as i know)

In the 20th century there was a political democratisation,
But still the Classical Music didn't became "Popular".
And Without the governments support and the Elites it is hard to see how it could survive.
While the Pop it almost totally based on public support.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 4:03 PM · David, I have played a good deal of "catchy" music in a well-known dance venue in Paris (La Coupole, Boulevard Montparnasse). If folks didn't get up and dance, we would quickly switch to a "catchier" tango or waltz. If I played more than one or two missed or out-of-tune notes, the dancers would complain. Each dance lasted five minutes.
My first night, I had to sight-read 40 dances with a microphone 6 inches from my violin. It had to be pretty, lively, and in tune! I thoroughly enjoyed myself...

I have also played modern tangos, in the style of Astor Piazzola, who by the way got angry if people got up to dance: he wanted them to sit and listen! His tangos last up to 10 minutes, like many classical pieces, and were always in tune. And "catchy"..

But I also listen to, and play, string quartets and symphonies lasting half an hour or more, maybe several in one session. Such music is not "torture", it's an unfolding play of emotions which cannot be expressed in 5 minutes, sometimes dramatic, sometimes deeply meditative. The listener sits in silence and is absorbed and attentive.

So I find your analysis very superficial, and just a little insulting.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 8:52 PM · Adrian Heath
You and the players you mentioned play in tune like Julia Fischer or Hillary Hahn?
Can we see it?

If you don't, it means your intonation is "Relatively" good.
I say that this Bar should be defined by the public and the player.

February 6, 2019, 4:38 PM · David,

I sort of understand your rant. The reality is that making music is difficult regardless of the genre being played. Making a living playing/singing music is extremely hard - just ask anyone who, as a teenager, had dreams when starting a garage band - most do not have the temperament to actually get good enough to get paid let alone become a "star."

There are many crossover artists. "Black Violin" is one duet that is making it playing both hip-hop and classical violin and viola for audiences that have never heard classical before.

To be sure, the traditional orchestra with all kinds and sorts of unwritten rules of conduct (i.e., don't applaud between movements) and just how you dress puts a lot of people off. Yet, there are a lot of hard working young musicians breaking the mold every day and letting a new audience that "Classical" is not only ok but downright good.

Last week the PBS News Hour Weekend highlighted an Hispanic conductor who first experienced Beethoven in college as a trumpet player and was blown away. Now she is both teaching music as well as having a mixed generation orchestra in the inner city.

Those who are having fun with music attract others.

FWIW: I'm a big fan of "If it sounds good, it is good" and while I do play "Classical" I have a deep love for Hymnody and Broadway show tunes that I play just for my own enjoyment. Thinking about taking some of the show tunes to the senior centers though.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 4:58 PM · David, I and my colleagues play in tune like the violinists you mention, but with occasional lapses.

The "bar" you describe does not depend on a player or listener with inadequate hearing; it is a basic ingredient for those who love music, be it "catchy", dramatic, or meditative.

If you find your intonation "ok", your hearing is deficient. If your are just lazy, well...

February 6, 2019, 5:38 PM · Okay, I think David just said classical music can't be catchy.
Excuse me?
Some of my favorite earworm themes from classical music, let's go.
Paganini #24 theme (not the variations)
Finlandia (last section, about the last 1/3 of the 3rd page of the 1st violin part, aka place with syncopated strings and lots of brass fanfares)
Sibelius Violin Concerto, 3rd movement, particularly the beginning
Hungarian Dance No. 5
Rhapsody in Blue, particularly the opening (I bug my friends in band who play clarinet to play this)
Carmen. Just everything - the Aragonaise, Habanera, El Torreador - but I prefer listening to Carmen Fantasie Brillante by Hubay. The opera, if it were a movie, would probably be rated R so I've never watched it.
The theme from the Rondo from Introduction et Rondo Capriccioso - very French.
I could sit here for hours talking about this. I should stop.
Edited: February 6, 2019, 7:36 PM · The term "classical music" is a weird term.

A piece of music in any style or genre can be a classic like you can have rock classics.

Note that the term "a rock classic" is a different thing than "classic rock" since a "rock classic" refers to a specific rock number while the term "classic rock" refers to a genre.

You can have fiddle tunes which are "classics" and pop tunes and so on.

Or you can have classic styles like "classic blues". You can even have "classic female blues" (I just saw that term on the net).

Is Dvorak's Humoresque a classic? Well, Dvorak actually composed several humoresques but when you say "Dvorak's Humoresque" people are thinking of that particlar humoresque which is played in all sorts of versions and keys. The original instrument is piano and the original key is G flat major, which is a good key on piano but not so much on many other instruments. It is humoresque number 7 in a series of 8 humoresques for piano. So that one has certainly become a classic.

There a lots of classics out there which you don't call "classical music" and yet if some music is classic how could it not be classical?

Hmm, I am kind of just rambling on I suppose. Have a nice day.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 10:07 PM · "Classical" means music that is played on classical acoustic instruments. "Viennese Classicism" is a particular style from the latter half of the 18th century.
The best term for what is being discussed is WAM--Western Art Music. That pretty much encompasses what David is talking about.

The average American doesn't listen to art music for the same reason they would prefer to read a magazine or a tweet instead of a novel. Novels and classical forms are long and complex. This has nothing to do with kings or monarchs. Beethoven was anti-monarch and scratched out the dedication to Napoleon when he turned into a tyrant. Egmont is about freedom from oppression. The music of Aaron Copland or Leonard Bernstein or many others have nothing to do with Kings or Monarchy Classical music is associated with elitism, but that is different.. The average American is lazy and uninterested in paying attention to something longer than 3 minutes. They don't want to struggle through a novel, or watch an Ibsen play.

David's suggestion of pandering to people and producing short, snappy pieces is an insult. But there is a certain logic: if most people are happy with crap, then give them crap. If you want a Happy Meal for lunch, go get a happy meal. If you want a Swanson frozen dinner and think it's good, more power to you.

February 6, 2019, 11:00 PM · His intonation, though?

As was pointed out in another thread on the same topic... at least you know every McDonald's burger will taste the same no matter where you go, and you know you're not taking any undue risk of food poisoning. That's the food equivalent of a pop performer with good intonation. Poor intonation is the musical equivalent of Kitchen Nightmares.

Edited: February 6, 2019, 11:05 PM · I don't understand why he doesn't just quit his "job" and start touring.
Edited: February 7, 2019, 10:20 AM · Go for it,D. K., many wonderful things are possible with other people's money. Forgive me for using a quasi-marxist analysis, but at various times in western history the musical styles will reflect the values and priorities of the dominant social institutions that provide the financial support of the arts. Music History Synopsis in one paragraph: In the middle ages it was the church, then the hereditary,landed aristocracy. The nineteenth century saw the first great wave of democratisation; the new industrial and merchant classes paid for the the very large opera houses and the large symphony orchestra. In the 20th century, "classical" composers were employed by government sponsored university music departments, and much of that music exhibits a gratuitous dissonance, complexity, and obscurity. Meanwhile, in the lower classes there was a folk, or traditional, or common localized music cultures, unfunded, isolated, not notated until the 19th century. After the invention of recording, that undercurrent of popular music became the dominant musical force. Just compare the earnings of an Andrew Lloyd Weber, John Williams, or Lennon & McCartney, with the typical PhD music composition professor.
Our own time?-- The internet is becoming both the liberator of the audience and the destroyer of royalty rights. Anyone can hear anything and post anything for the world to hear, at almost zero cost.
Edited: February 6, 2019, 11:59 PM · "David, I and my colleagues play in tune like the violinists you mention (Julia fischer/Hillary Hahn), but with occasional lapses."

Adrian Heath, this is a very Bold statement, i have to see it to believe.
Because even they(Hahn, Fischer etc.) don't play perfect in tune, no one can, this isn't a piano.

But even if you do play close to that,closer than me, and it might be- because of the huge emphasis in Classical Music on intonation,
Even in this case - it doesn't really matter-
Because i don't see this high bar as critical for professional playing, and neither necessarily the public. And the singers in pop music that have some intonation issues sometimes are the proof.

I personally prefer first and foremost to play the piece fully, in good speed and really to Express what i wanted, preferably in high technical level(virtuousity etc.)
with reasonable intonation, and then, if i can, to improve the intonation as much as possible.
And if i can't do both, i might compromise a little bit on intonation.

Edited: February 7, 2019, 5:49 AM · Intonation is a must no matter the style. You can have different types of intonation in different styles but a style without focus on intonation doesn't make any sense.

It is certainly not just the big names like Hillary Hahn who has excellent intonation. You can even have a beginner violinist with excellent intonation as long as he/she plays a beginner piece within his or her technical reach.

If an amateur plays music that is slightly too difficult for him/her then the intonation has a tendency to go astray, but there is absolutely no reason that an amateur should play out of tune if he or she plays music that is within his or her technical capability. And that applies whether the music is a pop tune or a Bach minuet.

Elaboration: I have had violin pupils where working with intonation was a struggle, but I have also had pupils who played with incredibly good intonation right from the start. In any case intonation is a natural part of the art of playing the violin.

Edited: February 7, 2019, 5:48 AM · David,

Just food for thought about intonation:

IF one were to play the violin in perfect tuning with the piano, one would be playing out of tune.

The piano is tuned in 12-tone equal temperament - this means that it is very slightly out of tune in order to break the octave into 12 equal semitones. This is done so that each key can be played equally out of tune, instead of some keys being more out of tune than others depending on the tuning system.

It is actually impossible to play a piano properly in tune unless it has specifically been tuned for the key it is playing in.

This is contrast to the violin, which can be played in tune regardless of the key. The violin is actually the instrument more able to play in tune. Piano is a bad comparison.

Just something to muse on.

February 7, 2019, 6:28 AM · Michael - That's exactly what I was thinking. I was going to point out that pianos are tuned in equal temperament.
Well, now I don't have to write that all out.
February 7, 2019, 7:15 AM · David, in your last post you wrote: "I personally prefer first and foremost to play the piece fully, in good speed and really to Express what i wanted, preferably in high technical level(virtuousity etc.)
with reasonable intonation, and then, if i can, to improve the intonation as much as possible.
And if i can't do both, i might compromise a little bit on intonation."

YES David you have said that so many times already. We all know that this is your standpoint. What do you want from us? You are spamming this forum.

Edited: February 7, 2019, 8:44 AM · I agree with Joel's views on the basis for the backing of music.

Whatever is decided by those holding the money is what gets funded and promoted. What isn't funded or promoted tends to become more isolated.In some ways this use of power is seen as "abusive",especially if used by an oppressive dictator.I can agree with some music forms in history having been directed by groups of wealthy people who control politics and even some religion. I use the word directed where David uses the word abused. I think it was likely both at times.Classical music itself is not abusive. It might be argued that it was narrowly directed at times and more open at others.The music often shows us the feeling of a certain time if we can understand what was behind some of it.I admit I don't like the term classical music. It encompasses too much diversified material over too long a time to have a cohesive meaning.

Out of this has come the sentiment that recognized music as put forth by a controlling body is largely seen as the MAIN music, when in reality there is plenty of other music that hasn't gained the same notoriety because it wasn't chosen to be promoted much the same as there are millions of protestants that would argue that the idea of the so called "church" stands on very shaky ground. Music has in many cases closely followed politics and those who control it.This would only make sense. You don't bite the hand feeding you.

Everyone gets their information in small amounts. Fast food, social media, sound byte commercials everywhere lasting only seconds has bred a group of people that expect to get results fast. I see this as a world wide phenomena. In this age, large financial interests holding record companies have decided to market the 3 minute song.Probably started with the vinyl single record. Over time this conditioning has set in bringing in a new type of listener. If this is carried over into attention spans we have a real problem.Patience is a real virtue in the 20th century.

We have never had so much creative freedom as now. In order to capitalize on it you need to A: Have something people want to hear.B. Find a way to make it visible to the masses over the other three million people who are online with music ;) which brings us back to the people holding the money unfortunately.....or maybe you have a good connection with someone at Google.

February 7, 2019, 9:56 AM · Most good players play more in tune than a piano does. And they need not be well-known soloists to achieve this. Ms. Hahn and most others mentioned do play with better intonation than a modern piano for sure.

Not sure where do you get the idea that the piano cannot play out of tune, and thus, string players are at a disadvantage? It's always out of tune (and I love piano-this is not a jab at pianists.)

February 7, 2019, 10:09 AM · We live in an era where anyone can become a superstar without any kind of sponsorship. The top-grossing YouTube channel right now is a 7-year-old boy who reviews toys.

Lindsey Stirling is a YouTube sensation. So is TwoStep Violin. Nothing prevents someone from posting their videos and becoming a star.

February 7, 2019, 10:34 AM · If you can find a novelty of some kind that people want to seeYouTube can be successful. Playing violin whilst riding a unicycle or something like that.Honestly that might not be enough.You might need to play a difficult concerto whilst riding a unicycle down a mountain naked.

I've seen some wonderful gifted violinist YouTube videos with 15 plays in two years.

February 7, 2019, 11:13 AM · Well someone has already done playing the violin while skydiving naked.
February 7, 2019, 11:30 AM · Rodger, I heard about that one. That was, uh, interesting...
February 7, 2019, 1:04 PM · Piano style equal temperament is not out of tune, but a marvelous compromise. A well-tuned quality piano playing things like Chopin is wonderful. All the intervals are a little different from ideal just or melodic tuning. The only one that really bothers me is the major third, about 10 cents (10%) "wrong". I frequently do judging or Jury panels. My Intonation scale is 1-->5, 1) -perfect, amazing, consistently +/- 5 c. 2) good, or equal-tempered +/- 10 c. 3-4) some notes bent in the wrong direction +/- 25 c. 5) unacceptable, playing in the cracks, +/- 50 c. D.K. is at 3 or 4, needs improvement.
February 7, 2019, 3:04 PM · Have y'all tried looking this guy up online?
Edited: February 7, 2019, 3:34 PM · David,

I had to look this up as your "position" on intonation reminded me of this scene from "The Witches of Eastwick"

DARYL
Intonation. Vibrato. Stretch.
You think I'm crazy. But I know
music. It's the one thing that
makes me humble.
JANE
Not prissy? Our leader keeps
saying my intonation is prissy.

DARYL
You have precision. That's not
prissy. Precision is where
passion begins. Passion. Even
your thumb, your thumb position,
you really keep the pressure on.
Don't you?
He caresses her thumb.

A lot of men give up. It hurts too
much. But you... Look at that.
This is the most... beautiful...
callus.
Jane is melting. But Daryl suddenly grabs her other
hand.
DARYL
(continuing)
But this hand! This is your
failure! Your bowing. It sucks.
JANE
My bowing?! Why?
DARYL
Your spicato sounds like marcato
your legato like detache. You
kill the passion. Let it go.
What are you holding back for?
You're not just playing notes.
You're playing phrases! Human
outcries.

The bottom line is that Intonation is foundational to all music.

Edited: February 7, 2019, 4:03 PM · Paganini was praised for his perfect intonation. I just stumbled across this fact last night in the introduction to Baillot's The Art of the Violin (1835).
Edited: February 7, 2019, 5:21 PM · David, I'll be more modest!
I don't play as well as Hilary Hahn (nobody does!),
but I try to, because I love music and the violin, (not just to make silly videos..)
Unlike you, I will only post videos when I am satisfied of their quality.
Even if I manage a near-perfect video, your musical ear will apparently be inadequate to judge it.
You seem to be throwing your considerable talent in the gutter!
February 9, 2019, 6:55 AM · I don't know why I keep reading when I see him as the author of a thread. All it does is infuriate me.
Edited: February 9, 2019, 8:26 AM · Here is a good solution for Classical music world "Professionals" to be less arrogant and snobs:

The classical music isn't popular music - because of this things, and this world survives just because of the government support. The people's money.
Maybe it should start earn money independently like pop music and other "Not enough professional" styles, and then classical musicians and "Professionals" maybe will be more willing to hear someone like me and his suggestions.

To much "Royal" and "Snobbish" attitude.

February 9, 2019, 2:42 PM · Other styles have fantastic true professionals, too. Who play in tune.
Edited: February 9, 2019, 3:36 PM · ...and audiences who hear in tune!

Nothing to do with snobbery.

February 9, 2019, 4:30 PM · New popular music artists struggle just as much as some classical artists do. Rich, well to do musicians are rare, and not the norm, be it classical or polka.

There are snobs for jazz, classical, and metal music. Snobbery is a human flaw, rather than a classical music "trait".

There are a few styles where off-tuning among a group if instruments or band can be had, but sloppily refusing to play in tune isn't a pop music "feature" for most, if not all styles.

No offense intended. Just accept it's OK to have some worthy goal to improve upon, rather than finding excuses to accept your current performing status-quo.

Edited: February 9, 2019, 7:16 PM · I don't think I've ever been to a professional classical music concert that had distracting intonation issues, but I have been to a number of metal and rock shows where the singers and sometimes guitar players couldn't sing/play in pitch.
Whether this was down to the artist having a bad day, or maybe their monitors weren't functioning to spec, or the acoustics were interfering with hearing pitch, is something I can't speak too.
In any case, these bands probably would not have any fans show up if not for the fact that the albums through which they distribute and spread their music, WAS played in tune. They all have the capacity to play and record in tune when in the confines of a studio. Intonation is NOT a linear relationship. There is a large degree of asymmetry here. It's not like you can say "well, scoring a 9/10 on intonation is good for classical snobs; I can only score 6/10, so that's good enough for pop music, or I can only sing 3/10, so I'm going to play brutal technical death metal". The scale is more like "once you're lower than 8/10, it doesn't sound like music anymore".
The same philosophy, in my opinion, applies to rhythm as well.

Come to think of it, there is a touring violinist that throws intonation out the window, but I question David's ability to attract a legion of thirsty fans by dancing in a miniskirt.

And before the metalheads on this forum ask, yes, one of the bands noted above was Dragonforce.

Edited: February 9, 2019, 10:18 PM · No one needs to "listen to [your] suggestions," David. I mean, you're basically raving here. You are clearly pretty ignorant about popular music and you aren't exactly impressing me with your knowledge of classical music, either. Make your damned music and see if you can sell it. That's it. Quit telling other people what to do. It makes you sound like a... wait for it... dictator or monarch!
February 10, 2019, 12:55 AM · I know that this is just a "Forum", but you pretty much say what people in classical world say,
For example, i sent my videos to orchestras and thought they will be impressed and "jump" to take the opportunity for player in such level, but they seem not to be.
So i think your comments pretty much represent the attitude in calssical world.

I can do all this solely- make my own program and style and go with it to the public- and i did already - played for money at different occasion as a kid and teenager,
And i will do it again,
But i think that the classical world should be more pragmatic too.

For example - This is unreasonable to me that classical musicians can see someone plays Paganini's capripe fully in top speed, even on a bike!,with reasonable intonation,
And dismiss it as "Not serious" and tell him to "quit" because it isn't perfectly in tune (especially thay i don't have enough prctice time).
But you do it, and not just in my case.

February 10, 2019, 3:50 AM · I and many others did not tell you to quit, but to make it (the Caprice, and all of your playing) perfect with careful practice. Are you open to that? All evidence points to the contrary, but there's always hope for those who work hard and intelligently at what they love-if they do.
Edited: February 10, 2019, 5:31 AM · David, according to the recent poll, 20% of v.com members are not confident about intonation. These are the very folk who ask others how to improve.

A few, like yourself, were not aware of a problem, and must be very upset that no-one told them before!

Your easier pieces are "reasonably" (!) in tune; your Paganini is atrocious (even without the bike!). Personally I can't play as fast as you, but what I play is in tune with a nice tone and good rhythm, and folks ask me back, whether it's for "boring" symphonies or "catchy" dances..

You have immense possibilities, but you seem to lack the self-awareness necessary for the violin (which is why I suggested trying the piano instead). Please prove me wrong!

February 10, 2019, 6:30 AM · I won't quit, that's for sure.
My dilemma is whether to do it though classical world or through pop music.

I play as i define it in "Classical - Pop" style, that intends to combile "Catcyness" with High level of playing.
But i think that i more close to "Classical" then to "Pop",
That's why I'm trying to do it through classical world.
But if not - I'll do it independently. As sort of "More Classical" pop style.

February 10, 2019, 11:48 AM · Errors of up to 30 cents are not reasonable intonation, not even for pop. If two people in a section are off by 30 cents in opposite directions, they're more than a quarter tone apart -- they won't even be perceived as playing the same note.
Edited: February 10, 2019, 2:59 PM · ...i sent my videos to orchestras and thought they will be impressed ...but they seem not to be.

... This is unreasonable to me that classical musicians can see someone plays Paganini's capripe fully in top speed...with reasonable intonation...And dismiss it as "Not serious"...

Now I get it, this is all about... YOU! I should have clued in earlier as to why you think classical music is snobish and dictatorial. Sorry for your disappointment that none seem to recognize your greatness, but you see there is more to music than speed and intonation, but that you don't seem to understand and many have tried to explain to no avail. You have a certain talent and potential, but have a long way to go before you get to greatness, sorry.

Edited: February 10, 2019, 5:12 PM · Well @David, you certainly don't get a job in an orchestra by sending videos to the orchestra. You do need to participate in a contest, usually it is called "audition" and not contest. It is in fact a competition, actually just like any job where there are many applicants you are competing for the job.

What is special here is that you need to show what you can do by playing those pieces which are required to be played for that audition. There will be many violin players who can play very good, so it is not an easy task to say the least. I don't think that ability to play fast would be the most impressive thing.

Anyway, if you want to make money by playing violin then pursue the violin playing especially intonation and tone production. Afterall the quality of the sound of the violin impresses people a lot.

February 10, 2019, 6:18 PM · I'd add: for any professional orchestra, 99% of the people auditioning can play fast, and in tune within +/- 10 cents while they're doing it. They have to, seeing as the Don Juan excerpt and the Schumann 2nd Symphony scherzo excerpt are commonly required. The main way to distinguish yourself from the other 200 candidates who can all play fast passages in tempo and in tune is to play those excerpts in tempo, in tune, and musically, with attention to tone quality and expression, and showing an understanding of how the part fits into the orchestra.
Edited: February 10, 2019, 6:52 PM · David, I think you should find some like-minded musicians and have a festival. Below (and Free!) is an idea for a program that speaks to some of the ideas you outlined in your original post.

The Catch Me as You Can Festival--Closing Gala

Papageno's Revenge
Enjoy the fireworks as two coloraturas race to the finish--who will finish the Queen of the Night aria first?

Words without Song
Schubert's Winterreise cycle--rap version. This chilly trip just got a lot faster!

Anton's Eleven
All 11 of Bruckner's Symphonies in 11 minutes! This amazing accomplishment was achieved by getting rid of everything except the catchy parts.

Grand Finale--Make Your Own Scordatura! Audience Participation!
Bring your instrument and join us in throwing off the shackles of intonation!

February 10, 2019, 8:25 PM · This game could get kind of fun.

It Ain't Lip Sync
Play Paganini 24 down an octave, in tune at half speed on a cello. Day of the recital, play on a muted electric violin while playing back the recording at double speed.

Mahler, I hardly Know'Er
Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy. Except every woodwind baseline is substituted with the hammer from Mahler 6.

Lord of the Rings
Wagner's Ring in its entirety. All musicians must be dressed as Hobbits. And the strings must play on half size instruments

February 10, 2019, 11:00 PM · Some of these made me giggle a lot.

Also, I adored Bruckner's symphonies until I actually heard one in live performance. (Bruckner, I've realized, is music to love in the background while doing something else.)

Edited: February 10, 2019, 11:33 PM · Andrew Shieh

Here's a video of "duet" - I with myself and a recorded accompaniment,
If i was so out of tune, it was absolutely unacceptable, no? 2x not in tune.
But it sounds very good i think,
How can it be???

I will record soon Bach double concerto fragment and it will be even more clear it is ok, and even good! In parts
If you have pieces for 3 or 4 violins i can try it too.


February 11, 2019, 12:40 AM · Your intonation is acceptable at a slower tempo. We knew that already. It's definitely not acceptable in either of the Paganini caprices we've heard, even when you've slowed them down a bit.

Then there's still the matter of bowing technique (quite rough) and vibrato (jittery and only one speed).

I am going to refer you back to the videos that other amateurs on this forum have posted, which show that better intonation is not only reasonable, but fully within the capabilities of many amateurs. I'd post video myself, if not for a shoulder injury that is currently keeping me from playing.

February 11, 2019, 3:36 AM · Singers vs violinists?

I find that the warmth and "humanity" of the voice make us more tolerant of occasional lapses of intonation, while the bright, usually higher pitched "linear" tone of the violin makes such lapses painful to the ear.

Edited: February 11, 2019, 6:23 AM · Roger st- pierre
No. It isn't just about me, despite It is of course personal too.

The fact is that classical music isn't popular, despite it has money and respect,
And the average people have a problem to connect to it.
And i think it is because of this things.

Too much snobbism, too much "We are the kings" approach.
I'm an extreme example - because i play at very high level - Paganini's caprices etc. And you still dismiss it as not serious.

The classical world oppressing both the players and the audience!.

Edited: February 11, 2019, 7:28 AM · David many of us have already said it, you are certainly good for an amateur, and we believe you had a strong education when you were younger. At the same time we all have said many times, you are certainly not "good" as in "international level professional". Furthermore, it is also already very clear to all of us that you, yourself, do think you are really that good. So, there is a disagreement. What more can we do about it? Both sides have given their opinions to death. What is there left to discuss? When are you going to stop posting? So you will not stop until enough people here tell you you are really good? Isn't that spamming? If you just want to contribute videos of your playing (preferrably in the "performance" thread) that is fine of course. But you should stop these posts where you claim entitlement to general appreciation. And understand that when we say "well done David" we mean that as an amateur. It is unrealistic for you to become a professional. By all means continue as a hobby but do not spoil a perfect hobby! Join some amateur chamber music groups, they will love to have you. Or some amateur orchestra. Have fun but stop feeling entitled!
February 11, 2019, 7:29 AM · About a third of Americans listen to at least some classical music each month. That's not pop levels of listening, but it's certainly not trivial.

People find complex music challenging. Complex music requires repeated listening for familiarity.

Edited: February 11, 2019, 8:27 AM · David, as someone said several hundred posts ago(...) you don't play Paganini's Caprices, you destroy them. They are indeed "very high level", but your playing is not! This is not snobbery, it's just love of music, and respect for the listener.

And to suggest that "ordinary people" have lower standards is patronising and arrogant, not to say untrue.

Edited: February 11, 2019, 10:17 AM · The thing that seems to be holding you back, David, is your insistence that your playing is acceptable where it is. It sounded like you wanted to get better from your initial posts but then your reactions to the legitimate suggestions that you need practice contradicted that. In essence, you are oppressing yourself.

I might add that professional (sp) players are always striving to make their playing better rather than conceding that their playing is acceptable enough.

February 11, 2019, 11:01 AM · Take away all the arguments about classical music, all the arguments about intonation and I can say that last video was a pleasant listen. I also thought the video work was very creative in capturing yourself twice like that.
Now I'll probably be forever known as that guy who couldn't hear bad or good intonation. I didn't pick it apart I just listened and enjoyed it.I understand that there are people here who's job is to spot problems and correct them in other violinists.If I had really listened close I'm pretty sure I would have found something.I didn't try to do that.I heard a few things that could have been flagged, however not enough to stop the show over it.

You're probably wasting your energy here in trying to convince others to think like you do.I will go so far as to admit that so long as most notes are darned close much of the general public won't give it a second thought in a concert situation. Happens all the time.How close is up to the listener. You will never convince a music major serious professional musician that there is slop in intonation though. It's a pretty pointless argument.If they can hear it, it's there and it should be corrected.

In trying to find some common ground here as to your views on the feelings music relays. You used classical music as the main example. You can find dull lifeless music in other genre as well, yet I have played some of the most simple music ever at times, like two or three chords and people have been moved by it.So I would agree that we don't always need complexity to evoke an emotional connected response from the listener.In fact, complexity can get in the way.For example, have you been in a conversation with someone who couldn't seem to get to the point? This would be similar with some music that goes nowhere musically even though it's incredibly complex. It's up to the composer to give music wings.

February 11, 2019, 3:40 PM · @Timothy Smith
Thank you.

@dawson weber,
The thing is that i agree with you.
I don't say you are wrong - you have to practice and improve intonation as all other things, and i do it to.

The discussion here is about the Minimum for professional playing. If you can play better of course it is better. As In pop music.

And the "Obsessive" attitude to intonation is just one thing- the other things as "Catchyness" are a big problem in classical music too - it's like "Catchyness" isn't a thing in classical music.


February 11, 2019, 4:09 PM · Intonation?
The professional cares because it is his responsibility to his colleagues and to the listener.
The amateur cares just like the professional because he only plays out of love for music.

Catchiness?
Much classical music is "catchy" & fun to play and hear.
When it is not catchy it is expressing longer, deeper emotions: laughing for joy rather than fun, powerful energy rather than agitation, longing rather than stupor.

February 11, 2019, 4:14 PM · Lydia leong
That's the "Catchyness" problem:
This isn't the "Complex" thing - it simply isn't "catchy":

Take for example the "Spring" by Bethoveen- it is very "Catchy", but also at high level, at least the first minutes.
Average people like it very much immediately.

Now I'm trying for example to record "Catchy" classical pieces to my YouTube channel and i have very big problem to find "Catchy" pieces in classical music,
In pop you have millions.
So I'm symply making covers!.

February 11, 2019, 4:19 PM · "Catchiness" is irrelevant of music genre. Some find rap catchy, but I myself find Paganini quite catchy (listen to the guitar and violin works, and even the Mose variations are fun and "catchy".)

Beethoven is "catchy". Haydn is (Fifths quartet among many works-very "catchy"). And so is Mozart. Dvorak has lots of "catchiness". Brahms. Schubert. Perhaps subjective, but true for scores of music lovers.

"False dichotomy alert" in this thread.

February 11, 2019, 4:25 PM · A friend of mine once said that Brahms was pop music. That was indeed a surprising opinion I must say.
Edited: February 11, 2019, 4:52 PM · Lars peter Schultz
I can say for sure That Brahms "Hungarian Dance" no.5 is perfect example for "Catcyness" in classical music.
I've seen a pop! Playbacks of it.
People like it immediately.

Another very good example is the 3rd part of "Moonlight" sonata of Beethoven. Everyone like it despite it is very complex.

The thing is that i think that even the classical musicians feel it, because in all professional violinists YouTube channels and even in forum discussions it is almost always the same pieces. (Bethoveen concerto, Tchaikovsky concerto etc)
In pop music if you don't like something you put it a side (not neccessary a full piece, it can be just some part). in classical music you force! Yourself and others To understand! Why it is good.
Abuse!!!;))

February 11, 2019, 5:38 PM · Classical music-lovers don't "force"! Just as we love to spend more time with people we like.. We often prefer conversations over soundbites.
Edited: February 11, 2019, 8:51 PM · Abuse!!!;))

David, how do you come up with such conclusion? Think a bit harder perhaps!

February 11, 2019, 9:11 PM · "in classical music you force! Yourself and others To understand! Why it is good.
Abuse!!!;))"

Oh, now I get it.

February 11, 2019, 10:27 PM · This thread is becoming increasingly bizarre. If you like catchy pop music, why not just buy one of those "Taylor Swift songs arranged for violin with CD backing track" books and play/perform them in a local recital? Shar Music will sell it to you for like $15. I personally have a copy.
Or just commission a catchy pop song for violin and piano. There are online websites that specialize in connecting people to composers, or you could ask a composition student at the local music school to work with you. Or, heck, write one yourself. There are no barriers to this. I would assume most people on this forum would even encourage exploring composition.
No one will judge you for not wanting to play the classical rep.

All that being said, the Intro and Rondo has many sections where you don't have to maintain rhythm, and even one section where it is acceptable to botch the intonation. It's also really catchy. Maybe there's something for you there...

Now, if you don't find Tchaikovsky VC catchy...well...I"m just not sure how to respond to that.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 1:45 AM · James T
It isn't what i said - i said exactly the opposite:

That pieces like Tchaikovsky or Bethoveen concerto are "Catchy",at least parts of them,
And that's why you see them in all professional violinists channels. As other known pieces like "Czardas".
But this is very small amount of such pieces in classical music.
And the fact that even professionals don't know many other "catchy" pieces and play always the same ones says it all.

In Pop you don't have "several known" "Catchy" pieces - you have
millions of them.

February 12, 2019, 3:29 AM · Playing a known piece is like meeting up with old friends.

A long piece can be like a ramble through a fabulous mountain landscape.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 4:15 AM · Oh, there are more than several catchy classical pieces. I know because a friend recently asked me to come up with a playlist of catchy classical pieces for his 3-year-old son. Just thinking of pieces off the top of my head over three days, I've got almost 250 pieces on the list and it's still growing. Until now, I never really stopped to think of just how big the "popular" segment of the classical repertoire is.

Remember, opera was entertainment for the masses for at least 150 years encompassing virtually all the best-known opera composers.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 5:22 AM · Andrew Hsieh

Ok. Now lets make a comparison of such list between different people, even classical professionals:
Probably most of the pieces will be the same ones. Right?

In pop music the lists will be probably significantly different between different people.
Because there are so many "Catchy" pieces.
And in pop music in 3 days you can give thousands of pieces.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 5:28 AM · No, because I don't know a single person who knows thousands of pop songs, or thousands of anything off the top of their head. My point is that the number of catchy classical pieces already exceeds the limits of the average person's memory. It's not a "very small amount."

I can only remember a handful of favorite pop songs. There will be many others I recognize when I hear them, but I wouldn't be able to remember their titles because I simply don't have the brain space for them.

Oh, here's the other thing: it's not necessarily the music that makes pop songs catchy, it's often the lyrics.

February 12, 2019, 6:24 AM · We should make a thread compiling a list of catchy classical music pieces.
February 12, 2019, 8:10 AM · Nina roco
Definitely. Great idea.
You would like to start it?
Edited: February 12, 2019, 8:16 AM · Let's define "Catchy" as something the average man, not professial musician, will like.

I can name few pieces that I've checked already with average
people:
Czardas, Salut damore, "Oblivion" by Piazzolla.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 9:09 AM · David, the term most often used when referring to music that's catchy is referred to as the "Hook" here in the west. If you tell a pop musician you're looking for the hook he will immediately know what you mean by that.Not that I always trust Wikipedia for my info but this is an accurate description.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_(music)

A hook is that thing you find yourself humming subconsciously because the tune has lodged itself into your brain and sometimes the hook is so strong it won't go away.

I notice American TV commercials are using more and more old melodies in advertisements because the music is familiar and has a nice hook in it.I guess they are having difficulty in finding their own original hooks.

In classical music, you are correct the hook seems difficult to pin down. Themes are more popular. How many people recognize immediately the theme from Jaws or Star wars? Bethoveen's 5th movement? I suppose a theme can be a hook.

Pop music took the violin as a partner a long time ago.Are you attempting to change the classical music establishment? You have bigger cahoonas than I thought you did:) I think it boils down to what people like. If a 10 minute piece of highly complex classical music releases dopamine to the brain of the listener, then it had the same effect as good music with a hook does in other cases. I would describe classical music experiences thus far as more appreciative. Appreciative of the work that went into it, appreciative of the composers who wrote it. I find much of it meditative as background music.None of it ever made me want to get up and dance.(Let me preface that by saying they had to drag me to the stage to dance at my own wedding).Those pop/classical combinations reminds me of the Lawrence Welk show. Right up there with bell bottom jeans and disco music.

February 12, 2019, 8:18 AM · It was a joke, but you know what? Who cares. It will probably be a joke that has gone too far, but whatever.
February 12, 2019, 8:44 AM · Still not sure what point you're trying to make. That there aren't enough people playing pop music on Youtube? I personally beg to differ. Just put [song name] + violin cover into Youtube and you get tons of people actually doing this, with varying degrees of skill and view counts. Sure, attractive young white girls generally dominate the view counts, but then sometimes you get indian guy playing baroque style Taylor Swift.

https://imgur.com/a/RiOR6po

I would say If you want to make pop covers...just...do it? I guess? What's stopping you? Why not ask your teacher to find you a student pianist and just jam covers for fun? Or hire a professional pianist who can follow your cues. What do professional pianists cost an hour, $100? You could shred through an entire pop album in an hour. Play what makes you happy and have fun with it.

I guess I'll pretend to be my dad and flip the question about catchy pop music back at you. What have you done to further this goal of yours? Have you tried to find chamber groups with other intermediate level adults that want to play this stuff? Have you gone to community meetups and talked to orchestra program directors? Have you tried joining one of those community orchestras which are open to doing pop encores? There's a pretty big jump from doing the aforementioned to submitting audition tapes to the Chicago Symphony.

February 12, 2019, 10:42 AM · Pop music is manufactured for two reasons:
1. To appeal directly to kids in the age ranges of about 8-18.
2. To sell advertising space on the radio.

David thinks art music should be like Happy Meals: maybe include Disney tie-in promotions?

Maybe if opera patrons got bobble-head toys they'd attend more often. I can imagine, for example, giving out toy Leporellos or Don Giovannis. Maybe kids can be encouraged to watch Wozzeck with cuddly stuffed Wozzeck dolls, complete with a detachable bloody knife in one hand?

February 12, 2019, 11:12 AM · Now Scott, this is why some see classical musicians as snobby. My wife listens to pop music in the car and she is a little past 18.I'm trying to take the shovel away before you dig any deeper ;)
I agree pop music is seen this way by many experienced musicians. It's similar to reading A 500 page novel and being offered Dr. Suess or a Charlie Brown book to read.I get that.
Edited: February 12, 2019, 12:53 PM · The idea is to create a professional! style "Classical-Pop" that is more "common" style:
That's why i call it also the "Fast food" of classical music.
That combines high level of playing - musically and technically,
and "Catcyness".
With less "tight" attitude to things like intonation (Relative intonation- based on the player and the audience).

I can do it separately, . Independently, more like "Pop singer"
(and i will, if it will fail with classical world),

But i think that I'm more close to classical music than to pop, and that's why I'm trying to see If such thing as "Classical-Pop" that combines high level of playing (Musically and Technically)
and "catchyness" is possible.
Classical world has a lot of good things and organized structure and money, that's why you can do a lot with classical world cooperation.

Maybe i will even start to organize something like that officially. As it is organized in classical music.

February 12, 2019, 1:28 PM · "Now Scott, this is why some see classical musicians as snobby. My wife listens to pop music in the car and she is a little past 18.I'm trying to take the shovel away before you dig any deeper ;)"

Just because adults listen to pop doesn't make it any better. It is what it is. I'm sure there were some nostalgic adults in the hall at the recent KISS performance in Portland. Not all pop is bad, but popular music has stagnated as badly--or worse--than lat Baroque or Viennese classicism. Can you imagine being stuck in 1700 or 1780? How did those people not die from hearing the same stuff over and over?

Once, in grad school, I contradicted a professor by saying "yes, but some people watch golf on tv--that doesn't make it right!" To which he replied "I watch golf on tv..."
Oh well. Guess I hurt his feelings. But in the end, no, just because lots of people do something doesn't make it right. Or make some genre better than it is. Which is why so many genres of pop from just a few years ago have ended up mostly as punchlines.

David wants to dumb things down. He wants to slip in Velveeta for béchamel, or make Wuthering Heigths into a comic book, or have Shakespearean characters just "talk normal"--I'll bet he thinks that Shakespear plays could attract huge crowds (like KISS) if those play people weren't so snobby.

February 12, 2019, 1:54 PM · Scott cole
You said
"David wants to dumb things down. He wants to slip in Velveeta for béchamel, or make Wuthering Heigths into a comic book, or have Shakespearean characters just "talk normal"--I'll bet he thinks that Shakespear plays could attract huge crowds (like KISS) if those play people weren't so snobby"

I think This is pretty much what Gourmet chefs say about McDonald's.
But McDonald's is very popular, no?

February 12, 2019, 2:16 PM · But if we're continuing this analogy, how many people who aim to call themselves chefs aim to make McDonald's?

In any case, this thread is going in circles. Why not just buy the Taylor Swift book and play it? Or better yet, give a recital, play your Paganini at speed, and use Taylor Swift as an encore?

February 12, 2019, 5:19 PM · James T
McDonald's is tasty!, despite it is "simple" That's a fact for many.
Even many very rich people that can afford gourmet food like it, Trump for inatance.

This "Tastiness" in music is "Catchyness".

And It doesn't mean to play necccery "Simple" - the 3rd movement of Bethoveen's "Moonlight Sonata" is at very high level, musically and technically, but is still very catchy for the average person. Everyone loves it.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 5:53 PM · I think people sometimes talk about different things when talking about pop music, and there is usually also a difference between "pop music" and "popular music".

Anyway, the typical pop tune is a song that last for about 3 minutes and at the end there is a change of key, the tune goes up a half tone or a whole tone, although sometimes a different interval. Well, there are also many pop songs which doesn't change key, but is nevertheless a very typical "layout" for many songs.

It happens that a violin pupil of mine wants to play a pop tune. OK so we do that; then when the song at the end goes up a half tone the pupil is in trouble. The tune suddenly changes from G-major to A-flat major but the pupil is still at a "G-major-level" on the violin and has not yet the technical ability to play A flat major. The solution is of course to drop the last part of the song. The pupil is actually often happy with that.

But assume that the pupil is advanced and capable of playing in A flat major. Then another problem occurs. The idea for the key change is that the higher pitch gives some extra sparkle to the song. But on the violin there is not many ringing tones in A flat major. It is a key that is better for a kind of soft sound. That means that the sparkling effect doesn't really happen even the pitch is a half tone higher. So it appears a bit counter intuitive.

But that is not the only problem. The pop song is very much depending on the text. The singer's articulation and expression is closely related to the words. You don't get anything of that nature on the violin by just playing the notes unless you are a very advanced violin player who can make wonders with bowing techniques and dynamics and some expressive left hand vibrato here and there.

Furthermore the expressions of the song are supported by the harmonies and what else goes on. Playing the song solo without that tends to be not that exciting.

Thus all in all, playing the song solo on a violin and make it sound great and exciting is quite a task. Well fortunately the beginner pupil is often happy anyway by just playing the song the best he or she can do. But it is not really suitable for a recital unless you can find a piano player who can make a great accompaniment or if the violin teacher is capable of making a very good 2nd violin part.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 5:33 PM · James T
And about Taylor swift - definitely, high level covers is very important part of "Classical-Pop", even in classical music you have it, no?
Ernst-Schubert "Der Erlkonig" is a song Cover, no? At highest level possible.

If you have good melodies or arrangements that you know people like why not to Build something at high professional level on them? Even full pieces.

February 12, 2019, 6:11 PM · Well, if you're trying to convince me or this board that Erlkonig doesn't have a high level of professional respect and admiration around it I'm not sure you're going to succeed. Everyone here would be impressed at anybody that could pull it off. That piece is very popular as an encore for a reason, although I'm not sure where it fits into your classical pop/mcdonalds analogy. The Erl King is like the haute molecular gastronomy of classical music.

I still feel like this is veering into "man yells at cloud" territory. This board has been overall very supportive of "play what you want to". The posters above (myself included) have encouraged you to play recitals, or go to meetups, or rent time at a recording studio. I'm still confused as to why you don't just write something like:

Dear [Teacher in my Area]:
My name is David and I'm an adult violin student looking for a place to perform some of the music I've been playing. My friend Bob plays the piano and we've been working on Caprice 24 and Hungarian Dance 5. Is there any way you could fit me into your next program.

But let's back it up. What "classical-pop" music do YOU like to play? If you had the opportunity, what would your recital/concert program be? We're trying to point you towards the right resources but you haven't really told us what you want to play yet :)

February 12, 2019, 6:14 PM · But people do do this stuff at "hIgH pRoFeSsIoNaL lEvEl" David!
AURGH
February 12, 2019, 8:20 PM · David. I’m trying to figure out what fits in your model of classical pop. Does the content of this YouTube video fit what you are aspiring towards making?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i1nGx4DX83U

Edited: February 12, 2019, 10:54 PM · James stevens
Bingo.
Actually i wanted to give another example of "Brooklin Due" for something that fits the idea of "Classical Pop":
High level of playing+"Catchyness"-
"Take on me"

Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:03 PM · It is another proof that i don't invent something new or "Crazy" - people do it already professionaly very seriously.

Something like the "Take on me" isn't exactly Classical Music nor Pop music,right?
And I'm not sure you can see something like that significantly and very seriously in repertoire of professional classical players and orchestras.

February 12, 2019, 11:05 PM · Note that there's no compromise of intonation in that ensemble.
Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:17 PM · James T
It isn't what i said - "Der Erlkonig" is great piece, i simply gave it as example to piece that is in fact a "Cover" of song.

Moreover,
in my view, something like "Der Erlkonig" you can include in "Classical-Pop" because it is very catchy.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:24 PM · Lydia Leong
That's one of the reasons i define it as a new style:

In "Classical-Pop" it is better to play better, but the bar for professional playing is lower.
As in pop music.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:30 PM · It's not a new style.

https://www.allmusic.com/style/classical-pop-ma0000012236

It's a well defined style with professionals that are already performing and established.

Here is a short list of the competition.
https://www.allmusic.com/style/classical-pop-ma0000012236/artists

You're appropriating and insulting an entire genre by stating that their standards for acceptable performance and musicianship are low.

Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:56 PM · And again, i think you are very anfair to my personal intonation -
I think thay Without some slips, overall it is very high level,
The intonation! Is on of the reasons i see myself closer to classical music then to pop.

Here's for example something i recorded few days ago,
I heard it over and over, and it is one of the cleanest playings of this piece i know:

Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:55 PM · Michael Mcgrath
This isn't exactly a "style" with rules, they simply call it "Classical-Pop",
And this are singers!.
But it is good to know that there is potential cooperation.

I can call the "Classical-Pop" style as i define it "David's style" but it is a Little bit arrogant;)))

Edited: February 12, 2019, 11:58 PM · I'm not really sure that I'd call David Russel (Guitar), The Piano guys (well..), Nigel Kennedy, Liberace, Empire Brass, Jenny Oaks Baker, Ferrante & Teicher, Virgil Fox, and Andre Kostelanetz singers but you do you.

No genre has strict rules - they're typically more broad than that and self defining. Classical music (god I hate that term) is usually distinguished by it's attention to structure and complex harmonies. It's more accurately described as art, concert, or erudite music.

Pop music, as a genre (and not a musical form - that's different), is usually defined by simple song structures and use of hooks and repeated choruses. This isn't to be derogatory but merely to define a norm. People vote with their money and if it wasn't good and worth listening to it'd have died out as it came out.

Genre's have very little rules. Classical pop is a fusion genre, which means it has even less rules as things are, by it's very nature, muddied. Often you get erudite attention to detail mixed with a structure that was prepared for mass consumption - sometimes it works great, sometimes it's a flop, just like any other genre.

What would the rules of 'David Style' Classical-pop be?

Edited: February 13, 2019, 12:31 AM · Michael Mcgrath
You right, i didn't see the instrumental players there,on the phone version of the site you see just text with the names,
I clicked on several and they were all singers.
So you right.

But, i don't know even if they themselves define themselves as "Classical-Pop" - virgil fox died at 1980!!!.


Anyway, "David's Style" "classical-pop" rules are Currently are:
1. The music should be catchy as possible, And easy to listen to. 
2. High level, "Classical" level performances. Both musically and technically. 
3. You can edit the classical pieces as you wish- cut parts, merge, even glue different pieces etc. In orderfor it to be catchy. 
4. New instruments are legitimate (as long as the high level professionalism is maintained).
5. "Relative" approach to intonation accuracy and other mistakes- better intonation is preferred and appreciated, but the Barrier for proffesional playing is decided by the player and the public- if the player and the public feel it is good enough, it is good enough.

February 13, 2019, 12:37 AM · The ability to not being judged by sloppy intonation. Being loved whether one plays in tune or otherwise. That appears to be desired standard of this music style.

It's absurd a personal technical limitation is being dealt with by blaming the "evils" of the "Classical Music Establishment", akin to partisan, political accusations. There are plenty of injustice in our world-being deemed a poor musician due to bad intonation is one of the lesser "evils" of society. I welcome this "evil, snobby system" that will at least help me pursue a higher form of musicianship, regardless genre.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 12:40 AM · David,

You studied political science - you should know even better than me the difference between suggestion, rule, regulation, and law.

Genre's are not formed of rules - they're formed of suggestions - I personally learned to call them stylistic tendencies in school, but regional terminology varies.

Things such as high professional level, catchy music, acceptance of instruments, and 'relative approach to intonation' are all self regulating traits that all genres possess and not really enforceable rules. These are all metrics that are defined by an audiences' willingness to participate, purchase, and share the genre's music.

1. No genre survives without catchy music, who would listen to it? It's important to remember that catchy is relative though. People find rap catchy, I don't, similarly I find Taylor Swift a guilty pleasure and others don't.

2. As mentioned, this is self regulating. The best performers will eventually form an elite class of participants and dominate the market share.

3. This is good - this is a genre defining trait - you need more of this and less of the others.

4. This is true in every genre. The only reason you don't see it often in Art music is because the music has already been written. New art music composers employ new instruments frequently, and often music is repurposed for other instruments.

5. Relative approach to intonation etc - like number 2, this is self regulating and will happen in any genre in the same way as number 3. The best, most pleasing to listen to players and participants will form an elite upper crust and come to dominate the genre's market share.

I'm perfectly happy to listen to your recordings - they're not all bad and you have good ideas, but sometimes this just feels like a bit of a loop.

The only genre rule you've listed there would be number 3, as it defines the genre itself.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 12:57 AM · @Adalbeto valle rivera
If you will ask classical professionals they will say probably that most of pop singers should not sing professionally, (or at all;))), right?

But they do. And have more popularity then classical music.
And this "Light" approach to thing like intonation is one of the reasons it is more popular in my view.
More "accessible" style.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 12:54 AM · @michael Mcgrath
Of course this aren't "rules" - no one will punish you if you aren't obeying them strictly, this are more a "guidelines".
Edited: February 13, 2019, 12:58 AM · Right,

The punishment for breaking a rule is often ostracization or exclusion from a community or group. I guess if we want to look at a hard line between genres (and based on this conversation I think we might have to) then perhaps Classical-pop does have rules.

But what are the guidelines that one needs to follow to successfully meet your definition of Classical-pop in order to participate in the 'community'?

The only creator controlled rule (or guideline, or trait) you've listed so far is that classical sampling is acceptable and a central part of the style, and I can get on board with that, but there needs to be more to define a genre than just that. What makes this different than other classical-fusion genres?

Edited: February 13, 2019, 1:22 AM · @Michael Mcgrath

You said: "What makes this different than other classical-fusion genres?"

That you can play bad;)))

But seriously, i guess that the main differences are the emphasis on "Catchyness" and the lower bar for professional playing.

February 13, 2019, 1:28 AM · Well, no, people don't say pop musicians shouldn't sing. Look, there's a reason that autotune exists. It's to make sure that recordings are in tune. There's a reason so much music (there's a Spotify data analysis somewhere out there showing this) is written in D, G, D, A major and like, A, B, and E minor. It's because it's easy to play in tune on guitar and piano (and violin, as it turns out). Believe it or not, the intonation standards for pop music are pretty strict (as I noted above, it's not as if classical music has a 9/10 bar for intonation, but pop music only has 6/10), it's just that generally, they're written with less sophisticated chords, and only within certain dynamic and pitch ranges. This of course doesn't apply to every hit, but it's good to keep in mind as a general rule-

Wait, guys, is this all just an excuse to attempt to play Erl King out of tune? Shit why didn't you say so sooner? I've been doing that for years! Forget this metronome practice nonsense, I'm substituting the arpeggios in the chaconne with "Better Than Revenge". Thematically it works because both pieces are about not being able to let go of a girl.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 1:31 AM · But both of those are self-regulating traits and decided by the audience.

The creator has no control over those. In order to define a genre, the creator needs to be able to follow a template to fit into it. All rock music has certain things in common - if it doesn't sound a certain way it wouldn't be classified as rock. Things such as catchiness and professional standards have to do with success and not the genre definition - success is determined by the audience, not the genre. You can't force an audience to hate you or love you, regardless of how good or bad you are. You can influence your odds of being popular by being skillful and charismatic, but that's about it.

If music is not catchy, the audience will not come and the branch of the genre dies.

As the genre grows and gains traction, so does the sample of performers - with a greater sample of performers, there will be a wider range of skills. People will gravitate towards supporting the people who perform the best, regardless of what the minimum level for entry is.

Rock music has thousands of cover bands and even bands who make original content. Only the best make it to the top. This isn't exclusive to classical music. In any large group higher performers will almost always become separate - either based on their own actions (possible elitism) or more often based on audience preference.

February 13, 2019, 1:39 AM · James T
The lower bar doesn't mean you should not play the best - not just intonation, everything- staccato, arpeggio, all other techniques.

I'm even thinking about creating something like "Elo rating system" in the style. "Official level" As in chess. With different parameters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

February 13, 2019, 2:02 AM · Uh, the Elo rating system requires head-to-head "games" between competitors. How exactly is this supposed to work -- Paganini caprice racing?
Edited: February 13, 2019, 2:08 AM · I don't see how a rating system is any different than an audition for a top slot. In fact popular music already has such a system - records sold.

The highest ranked person is the person the majority of the general populace will want to see.

David, a thought occurs to me - is your issue with capitalism and not music genres and the expectation for excellence?

Edited: February 13, 2019, 2:10 AM · Andrew Hsieh
There's need to think about how exactly to do such test,
That is a professional sphere to decide -
But lets say I.Q tests aren't competition. They have different parameters that professionals check.
Edited: February 13, 2019, 2:47 AM · Michael Mcgrath
Popularity might be a factor, but not necessarily:

Such rating system intends to give indication about players and orchestras etc.
And to encourage better playing level.

It is like with cars -
There's a "Porsch" and there an average "Hyundai" -
In professional ratings the Porsch in better in all parameters, but the Hyundai is more popular, simply because it is cheaper, so popularity is "Relative" factor.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 3:03 AM · Michael,
Although I'm pretty strong "Leftist" in politics, but i define myself as "Social-Capitalist", I'm not a Socialist, if that's what you mean.
The ranking system is pretty "Capitalistic" thing i think.
Edited: February 13, 2019, 3:01 AM · That's really apples and oranges.

We are talking concert tickets and record sales - the difference in popularity between a Porsche and a Hyundai is not a matter of performance, it's a matter of about $60,000.

I would much rather drive a Panamera (I think most people would), but instead I drive an Elantra.

You can often get tickets to performances of the highest level concert performers for less than the equivalent pop performers - this comparison actually hurts your argument instead of supporting it.

Edit:
If we want to talk average quality vs. top tier quality, there are often accessible armature symphony concerts with free or very cheap admission - the standard of playing there is often still grade A.

Unfortunately none of this really defines your classical-pop genre or really explains the motivation for this entire thing. Generating discourse is great, but this feels a bit like running in a circle.

February 13, 2019, 3:07 AM · Also no, I don't care if you're a socialist and wouldn't call someone that based on this conversation.

It just seems that most of your arguments are able to be reduced down to a denial of how market forces work and the human desire for the best of everything.

February 13, 2019, 3:21 AM · The ticket prices as indicator are "relative" too-
In most cases higher level and more famous player will cost more "Expensive".
But the tickets to his shows might cost less simply because he can fill bigger halls, and make several concerts in few days.
So he can reduce the ticket prices.
Private concert probably always will cost more with better player.
February 13, 2019, 4:00 AM · I'd be willing to bet I could get a private concert from Joshua Bell for a lot less than I could get a private concert from Taylor Swift.
February 13, 2019, 5:54 AM · Michael I would completely agree
Edited: February 13, 2019, 7:56 AM · "Just because adults listen to pop doesn't make it any better. It is what it is. I'm sure there were some nostalgic adults in the hall at the recent KISS performance in Portland. Not all pop is bad, but popular music has stagnated as badly--or worse--than lat Baroque or Viennese classicism. Can you imagine being stuck in 1700 or 1780? How did those people not die from hearing the same stuff over and over?"

Scott I didn't intend this to be a back and forth.My apologies if you took my statement as offensive.Your view is what I would expect from a music professor. It's similar to an experienced economist seeing frightful trends in world financial markets or a pastor decrying moral trends in society or a fisherman who sees a steep decline in stable ocean ecology. In your view anything other than classical music is a devolving of the art. Am I correct? So obviously to the masses this would look a lot like elitism if they didn't have your understanding of music. The average person is hungry and there's a McDonalds nearby so they go for the Big Mac. Many don't have any idea about proper nutrition, their immediate need is to fill a hunger pang so they buy the hamburger. Heck I won't lie, I like a Whopper or a Big Mac occasionally, but I'm mainly on a good diet taking the right vitamins and eating healthy.Listeners weaned on pop music don't know any better and don't really care. So who's this guy telling me my music is cheap and unworthy? See my point? This whole thing is making me hungry. My turkey sandwich might need to go in the fridge today for a trip to McDonalds:)

Back to the last several posts-
I can't entirely see the pop music biz as a survival of the fittest analogy. Yes good talent gets noticed and promoted that much is true, however not all of the good cream rises to the top, sometimes much worse things do mainly because record companies with promotion agendas get to decide who get's the push and who doesn't based on their agendas. This may be partially responsible for the lower quality of recent music. When non musicians get to make the calls it can't be good since art is no longer the main consideration. The person you see at the top isn't necessarily the most talented person. I think it's much more complicated than the best players are the ones who make it to the top.

I'm finished with the discussion with David. I'm convinced he was already convinced of his intentions before he made the first post. Nothing anyone has said on over 100 posts has made any difference in his opinions. It's almost as if he is attempting to convince others of his objectives which are not well defined and seem ill thought out. I'm finished wasting my time on that.We could be 300 more posts in and nothing will have changed.

February 13, 2019, 9:36 AM · Timothy,
No offense from me, and I hope none on your end. And I agree that, without exception, David's posts are not worth answering.
Another analogy about popular music:
I imagine being stuck in 1780. Lots and lots of Minuet/Trios. All the composers use them, and everyone loves them. But there's only so much one can do with a minuet/trio, so eventually Beethoven comes along and does something different. We're at that point with pop music--there's nothing further to be done with it.

There was an era of experimentation....back in the 70s. Psychedelic stuff, different instruments, theatrics.
Remember the artsy lyrics of Rush? Then everyone glommed onto the synthesizer as the savior of pop, with new sounds and possibilities that could "rescue" something that was already moribund in the 80s. But now, if you look at every sub-genre, they're all totally static. Country? Rap? Dinosaur rock? And of course, my favorite, K-Pop. Every genre has run up against the same creative wall, including the symphony, concerto, etc.

David is suggesting someone make classical music more like pop music, as if he's been in a cave for 40 years and doesn't realize that people have been doing this in various ways already. Unfortunately, with rare exceptions (I find Red Priest pretty entertaining), it's like tryin to invent a flying car: you end up with something that both drives and flies poorly.

February 13, 2019, 10:22 AM · David, you have exceeded your quota of quotation marks.
February 13, 2019, 10:37 AM · If anyone on here is interested on how modern pop music is developed, I can recommend a short book called "The Sound Machine: Inside the Hit Factory" that talks about how the lines and hooks for top artists these days written and shopped around.

Pretty fascinating look at the inside of the industry. As it turns out, all of these hits and lines and lyrics are written by like, 5 middle aged Norwegian dudes.

February 13, 2019, 11:36 AM · I thought it was like, one middle-aged Norwegian dude and one American dude. Mostly the Norwegian guy though.
Edited: February 13, 2019, 12:31 PM · @Michael mcgrath
The "Professionalism ranking"(sorry for the quotation marks @paul deck;))))
doesn't mean neccessary that the lower ranked player will cost less -
There are other legitimate parameters that effect peoples choices:
Such rank is just an indication -

For example, people might want more experienced player even if he plays less perfect technically,
Or - lets say for commericals or for relevant things someone might prefer more good looking player.
Good looks isn't "Professional" parameter, but that may effect the price in different occasions.

Edited: February 14, 2019, 1:20 PM · Removed.
Edited: February 14, 2019, 2:15 PM · [Removed.]
Also, how do you embed images? It's just html image tags, right?
February 13, 2019, 2:21 PM · ...and one each for all of us who can't resist flogging the same horse!!
Edited: February 14, 2019, 2:17 PM · [Removed. I did it wrong anyways, and I took down the original so nobody can see it.]
Edited: February 13, 2019, 4:36 PM · If the subject is dead, people just stop responding. But David's topics inspire people to come up with lots of replies with great ideas.

Anyway

@David you wrote earlier in this thread:

In "Classical-Pop" it is better to play better, but the bar for professional playing is lower.


Now it is my impression that you don't like snobbishness, so you better drop the above idea. Because to think that the bar for professional playing is lower is snobbish in my opinion.

Take a look at André Rieu and his Johann Strauss Orchestra. You can find plenty of YouTube videos. I think André Rieu's concerts come in under the heading "Classical-Pop" or something like that. It is very popular, he can fill a big concert hall.

I think it is obvious that the musicians in that orchestra are top professionals. The whole show is a top professional show in every aspect. The music that is played is loved by a big audience and they get to know these classical pieces very well. And they get used to this very high performance quality. If you think you should lower your professional standard if you are playing popular classical music then be aware that the audience knows how a top professional performance sound. They are "spoiled" with excellence.

February 13, 2019, 3:21 PM · David, even allowing for lapses due to lack of practice time (same for me now I'm retired!) how can you possibly compare your intonation to all these Pop Classics videos?

In the first three positions (probably well-drilled when you were young), your intonation is "acceptable", but above that, you very often overshoot the notes, as if you had never really studied the higher notes properly.
If you (and maybe a few of us here) dont hear this, you will only please a limited part of your audience, whatever the style.

February 13, 2019, 3:23 PM · Lars - uh, it was a joke. Anyways, I'm learning a ton from these threads about intonation and stuff, even if it's not really directed towards me, at least others can get something useful out of it.
February 13, 2019, 3:31 PM · Nina, yes the amount of stuff coming up in these threads is amazing. Gives a lot of food for thought.
Edited: February 13, 2019, 3:48 PM · Random violinist at 34th Street subway station (NYC) just now, playing "catchy" Piazzolla style tango. Don't know the player, didn't look at her face (was passing by). Perfectly in tune, not strictly classical (likely classically trained, but so is Mr. Krakovich.)

Moral of the story: practice, practice, practice, rather than bemoan and complain about pop vs classical, catchy vs boring, the people vs the elite, etc.

February 13, 2019, 5:04 PM · @Lars peter Shultz

I think that i sholud change the definition of the style to be more specific "Classical- Pop/David Style" or another name that is less arrogant;)))
That will clear that it is a spesific direction in Classical Pop. That has it's specific Guidelines.

It is like in politics:
There are different Economical approaches that combine social rights and capitlism:
"liberal- Socialism", "Social-Democracy", "Social-Capitalism" etc.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 5:19 PM · @David
Well, then you would need to actually write the guidelines on a list or something like that.

I think you have touched the subject from various angles during this thread. Or others including me has suggested various views on the matter.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 5:23 PM · I think the accurate defension will be a "School" in "Classical pop".


And i wrote this guidelines (currently - they are still being developed):
Of "David's Style" in "classical-pop":
1. The music should be catchy as possible, And easy to listen to. 
2. High level, "Classical" level performances. Both musically and technically. 
3. You can edit the classical pieces as you wish- cut parts, merge, even glue different pieces etc. In orderfor it to be catchy. 
4. New instruments are legitimate (as long as the high level professionalism is maintained).
5. "Relative" approach to intonation accuracy and other mistakes- better intonation is preferred and appreciated, but the Barrier for proffesional playing is decided by the player and the public- if the player and the public feel it is good enough, it is good enough.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 5:52 PM ·

Suggestions:

Drop number 2.

In number 4 drop the line in the brackets, so number 4 only says "New instruments are legitimate".

Drop number 5.

Why?

Because if a professional player applies the lines it will be done on a professional level. Thus no reason to mention that.

If a non professional applies the lines it will be done as good as he or she is capable of doing it.

The players will find out together with the public what works for them.

Thus my suggestions to drop the lines I mentioned above.

February 13, 2019, 6:56 PM · David, what happens if the public doesn't feel it's good enough, based on intonation? Does the player listen to them?
February 13, 2019, 9:37 PM · QUOTE:

The idea is to create a professional! style "Classical-Pop" that is more "common" style: That's why i call it also the "Fast food" of classical music. That combines high level of playing - musically and technically, and "Catcyness".

END QUOTE

You might enjoy the music of Yes, or Emerson, Lake and Palmer, the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and some of the symphonic albums by bands like the Moody Blues (Days of Future Past) or Pink Floyd (Atom Heart Mother) or the Grateful Dead (Terrapin Station). More generally, my reply to you generally throughout this thread is there is plenty of room for you to make whatever music you want without projecting your personal dissatisfactions with classical music as if these are objective truths rather than your subjective interpretations.

Edited: February 13, 2019, 11:10 PM · To add to Mr. Wilkin's last statement, I disagree with your penchant for making yourself the victim of "mean classical snobs", when it's *your* problem. It's not about pop, catchiness, or the "common people vs the elite." You lack the discipline to make your artistry better, and then scapegoat your flaws unto others, be it members of this forum or the classical world, finding a false sense of refuge in the supposed "catchiness" of "commercial" pop, deluding yourself into believing that sloppy playing is the main "trait" of pop music.

Frankly, whether you realize it or not, you are insulting pop artists by pretending that a lower level of professionalism fits their music, and is a good "take that!" reaction to the classical "snobs" you so vehemently "oppose" (because they have been "mean" to you, and are all but unwilling to accept your lower standards for violin intonation.)

Even raw music styles, that often skew "clean" production values, expect great professionalism and their instruments are generally in tune. There may be live recording/performance errors, etc. but generally, these are not intended as a "feature" of their music.

If you are going to be a musician, do your best within your ability, rather than being that lazy player who does as little as is expected to get by. If you don't like the violin enough to strive to play in tune (whether it is jazz improvisation, metal, folk styles, charanga, mariachi, fiddle styles, or classical), just follow some other passion that you really believe in.

Do not mean to antagonize you (or others with perhaps more empathy than myself on this matter). Feel free to disagree, but hopefully you'll spare us all from these cycles of threads, intended to glorify yourself rather than seeking an honest and proper discussion.

Now, let's strive to make better music each day, by being the best player we can be within our own circumstances and musical interests.

Good luck to all.

February 13, 2019, 11:28 PM · In David's Nocturne video, the vibrato and his tone bother me vastly more than the intonation.

Say what you like about Andre Rieu, but the man can produce a beautiful sound that little old ladies will swoon over.

Edited: February 14, 2019, 1:21 PM · @Scott Cole, I read those points you made on music genre. Thanks for the clarification. I once was a follower of fad and fashion always looking for the most recent music from my favorite bands. Yes I remember Rush.I was intrigued by some of what they were doing at the time.I attributed many of my feelings about music being stagnant to 1000 listens of one song or top 40 that never stops for years and years. That might be some of it. I think now the bar has been lowered though in many cases. I can't make a blanket statement and live with it on this because I think good talent is out there.But yeah, generally it's bland to me and I no longer care what's out there according to fad or popularity. Some of that might be age.I am probably the very worst connoisseur of what is current. I know what I like. That's it:) I am probably the exception and not the rule.I believe there is always a way to make the existing innovative,the recipe might be very similar in construct.Probably not any ground breaking results at this point though.We haven't trained poodles to sing yet. Maybe different enough to interest the masses.

" yes the amount of stuff coming up in these threads is amazing. Gives a lot of food for thought" Lars you make a good point here.Aside from the tail chasing that's happening. If Lars is incorrect or if you prefer to be called Peter or something else please correct me.

@Nina, I use free image site called https://postimages.org/

Grab the code for website hotlinks to post picture links.DO NOT accidentally search image post like I did. It's a pornographic site.

Edited: February 14, 2019, 1:20 PM · Ya know what, that was funny but is wasn't very professional and it was at David's expense. I'm taking that down. I apologize for getting carried away.
My apologies David. My jesting goes to far sometimes.I thought about it and decided it was a mistake to post it.

February 14, 2019, 1:30 PM · @Timothy wrote:

QUOTE

If Lars is incorrect or if you prefer to be called Peter or something else please correct me.

UNQUOTE

Hi Timothy, both Lars and Lars Peter but not Peter.
I am usually called Lars by many, but on the music school where I teach there is another teacher named Lars, so there I am called Lars Peter.

February 14, 2019, 1:50 PM · Understood and thanks. I didn't want to address you incorrectly.
February 14, 2019, 2:14 PM · And mine isn't appearing anyways (no idea why) so I'll delete mine as well. Maybe I should follow through with Adrian's suggestion of making one for myself. Hm.
Actually, too lazy to do that. Not happening.
February 14, 2019, 2:19 PM · Well, Timothy, at least I have a new meme template now. And it's interesting to see that Mr. Krakovich here doesn't respond to any slightly harsh jokes about him, but only to sincere posting. Typically in a negative way, unfortunately.
Edited: February 14, 2019, 8:07 PM · @Lars peter shultz

1.When i talk about professional playing i mean playing for money.

2. I don't see a problem with low bar for professional playing and "High level of playing"(No.2 in Classical-Pop guidelines) because this is the Goal! To achieve. And it should be clear to the player.

@Gemma k
If the "relative intonation" isn't enough for the public the player can't perform anyway.

February 15, 2019, 1:00 AM · "If the "relative intonation" isn't enough for the public the player can't perform anyway."

Guys...we're so close.

February 15, 2019, 7:01 AM · @James T haha
@Lydia Leong I concur about tone and vibrato
February 15, 2019, 7:49 AM · Nina I appreciated your help. I'm glad you didn't end up as my partner in crime :) Even if I strongly disagree with someone or think they are "out there" a bit I try to put myself in their shoes and wouldn't want someone doing that to me so I reconsidered. I want to respect everyone no matter who they are or what they think.

David seem oblivious. I think his ideas have made a few here attempt to grapple with what it is he's trying to do or say. His mind certainly works nothing like my mind and that's ok so long as no one is insane.I enjoy constructive reflection on subjects like music. If this is a ploy to get YouTube plays on his channel, it's probably working.

This is all beginning to be unhealthy for me. Hearing the same basic lines and ideas over and over again...so I'm done on this thread.I really am.

Edited: February 15, 2019, 5:28 PM · ***

@David Krakovich wrote:

1.When i talk about professional playing i mean playing for money.

2. I don't see a problem with low bar for professional playing and "High level of playing"(No.2 in Classical-Pop guidelines) because this is the Goal! To achieve. And it should be clear to the player.

***

Hi David,
Hmm, Actually music is more than just technique, intonation, tone production, rythm and harmony. There is also inspiration, passion, emotion and feeling, matters which can not be objectively measured, matters that are rather subjective but play a big role in your experience of music.

Beings who make a career within the subject of music have some kind of passion for music, they like to play music or pursue music to such a degree that music is their path so to speak. As for myself I can say that I started composing music when I was a teenager and it became clear that dealing with music was the way to go for me. I didn't really think I had a choice although you can of course argue that I did choose to follow that path.

Your passion, your motivation, your drive matters.

February 16, 2019, 12:54 AM · My personal experience is that the top levels of non-classical, pop, commercial musicians are just as serious about their craft as classical musicians.
February 16, 2019, 1:25 AM · Also, how exactly can someone whose intonation error is +/- 30 cents have a "high level of playing"?
Edited: February 16, 2019, 2:16 AM · Andrew, don't you know?

"better intonation is preferred and appreciated, but the Barrier for proffesional playing is decided by the player "

How could it be any more clear?

/s

Edited: February 16, 2019, 2:31 AM · James T
Exacly. I think it is very clear.
If there are who are willing to hear and pay, you are a professional.

Andrew Haieh
If you play paganini's caprice! With it, i think it is high level.

February 16, 2019, 2:37 AM · I started already to compose, and soon i will upload very Technical variations to known popular songs, i will upload soon and you will see...

"Catchyness+ high level of playing:
Both technically and musically"

February 16, 2019, 2:51 AM · And again - i don't agree with the comments that my intonation is so bad, it is even good in parts in my view, and anyway i work on it, and i believe it will be improved.
intonation is mainly work time, that i don't have so much.
Edited: February 16, 2019, 4:15 AM · No, David, in the easier, slower stuff, your intonation is "acceptable", but the notes are not quite "centered", or your fingers are too stiff to make those tiny, instant corrections. In higher, faster passages, the intonation is chaotic, as if totally unprepared.

If practice time is limited, we have to spend at least half of it on slow intonation work. All our lives! If you find that "Borring" (I quote), or if you simply don't hear properly, then you are putting your considerable potential on the wrong instrument..

Edited: February 16, 2019, 4:08 AM · For the record, I'm much more impressed by under-tempo playing with good musicality and good intonation than the same piece played extremely fast and out of tune. A lot of people are capable of playing the Paganini caprices badly.

A high-level playing of Paganini 16 will not only be in tune, but also put appropriate emphasis on the chord progression. If you don't do that, it easily loses its musical character and turns into a wall of sound that the listener struggles to make sense of. It is the exact opposite of "catchy." Playing faster will not help at all. If anything, playing it faster will only make that "wall of sound" effect worse.

February 16, 2019, 6:43 AM · To add to the above, I'm more impressed by 'easier' repertoire played well, than a terribly executed 'difficult' piece.
February 16, 2019, 9:35 AM · If you really want to impress someone with speed you don't need to play a difficult piece like Paganini. Play a very fast piece which sticks to first position, and, if you really want it simple, a piece which keeps the key as indicated in the key signature without difficult modulations but still granted that you can play it well and you can impress a lot of people. It will actually be a lot more impressive than playing Paganini unless your Paganini performance is top-notch.

A "risk" with a difficult piece like Paganini, is if you can only play it at a level where it sounds like an etude. When you play for people choose something which you can perform beyond the level of sounding like an etude. It is about excitement, passion, energy which in musical terms relates to topics like rhythm, articulation and dynamics.

Edited: February 17, 2019, 1:54 AM · Who deleted my thread?

I made a thread on the intonation issue and said that classical musicians use it as a weapon to personal attacks and you deleted it?

The next time anyone will delete my thread or something i said will be the last time I'm commenting here.
You can delete my profile already if you are going to start delete what I'm saying.

And then you say im wrong when i say that classical music is "Monarchs/dictators" style.


February 17, 2019, 12:45 AM · Posting on this thread since I'm guessing that the use of profanity will result in Laurie deleting a post:

Laurie Niles is the site owner and moderator. I suggest that you take it up with her -- politely.

I imagine that the delete occurred due to the racist remarks made within it by various posters.

February 17, 2019, 3:13 AM · Your thread deletion had nothing to do with this imaginary "classical monarchy" archrival of yours. It could have been to avoid thread clutter, and there were indeed inappropriate content that some did find offensive in that thread.

Freedom of speech-I believe in it, but one must also conform to the basic rules of each site one is member of. So, you cannot really state *every thought* you may have in here (this is common sense, and applies to most rational forums.)

We are actually given quite a bit of leeway as it is, and Ms. Niles is very fair.

In the end, we are not the "enemy of the sloppy playing people"-you are your own, biggest adversary, and only you can overcome yourself. Proving "us" wrong won't help you play better.

So as I said before, love your violin and just practice intelligently every single day.

February 17, 2019, 11:53 AM · "The next time anyone will delete my thread or something I said will be the last time I'm commenting here." Promises, promises!

And David, we are just describing your playing, bit in this thread (let alone the deleted on) you are insulting

Edited: February 18, 2019, 4:23 AM · us!

Sorry, the previous post "jammed" and refuses to edit..

Anyway, it was a cry-baby thread, and also deeply insulting to our integrity.

Edited: February 18, 2019, 11:04 AM · Ok. Thats enough.
This is my last comment here on this site.
The managers started to delete my threads now?
Very bad!.
Edited: February 18, 2019, 11:19 AM · How can i delete my account on this site?
I'm asking the managers to delete my account from this site.
February 18, 2019, 11:35 AM · David, you're a very good violinist! Why can't you just enjoy that, while trying to also improve, like all the rest of us? I don't understand what's so hard about that.

If you want to have another discussion ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC, my guess is that the Editor would have no problem with that. But all your discussions are on the same topic.

Edited: February 18, 2019, 4:03 PM · I agree, if we are not treated as dishonest or snobbish, dictators or pseudo-racists.

And yes, David could probably be a very good violinist!

February 19, 2019, 1:26 AM · That escalated quickly.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 1:28 AM · @Adrian Heath

But that's true!:
You (Classical Professionals) are "Musical Terrorists".

This isn't my personal problem, this is systematic problem of classical music - so i attack this.
You make me lool like a joke! A fool!, and people know that you will make them look like this too and for that reason other people don't dare even upload their videos or discuss them.
I'm pretty much the only one i see here that uploads his videos.

The thing is that you do it in real life too!!.

February 19, 2019, 1:40 AM · This show of "This Is My Last Post, Get Me Out Of Here!" is all standard part of the act.

Telling DK that he is "a very good violinist" is enabling. He's is definitely not, and it is not about violin playing anyhow, but about attention getting at the cost of everything.

If you want out of the group, just stop posting and log out.

Edited: February 19, 2019, 1:49 AM · But David, most of us have been desperately trying to help you avoid "looking like a joke"!
February 19, 2019, 3:54 AM · Adrian Heath
It is one thing to comment, this is another thing to start delete my posts.
February 19, 2019, 4:17 AM · David, posts or threads on v.com are only deleted when they are seen to be offensive, sexist, racist etc. It is extremely rare.
February 19, 2019, 4:56 AM · Again, to return to the facts, there are currently multiple threads active that contain videos posted by other people.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 5:09 AM · Adrian Heat

What's offensive in saying that average people hate classical music
And that listening to it more then 10 minutes is a torture for the average person?
This is true.

It isn't pleasant to hear, but it is true.
Why to delete such thread?

Edited: February 19, 2019, 5:29 AM · Classical music has money, respect, government support etc. And still people don't go,
Pop doesn't have any of this (i mean support) , and still highly popular.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 5:50 AM · No, David I politely disagree with that, but I'm not offended.

What is offensive is to suggest that we demand good intonation just to crush musicians we don't like.

"Ok, I was speeding, but you only stopped me because I'm a Pop musician".
If I were an honest speed cop I would find that insulting, and book you for speeding, and the insult!

February 19, 2019, 5:42 AM · You treat the audience the same way you treat me:
As stupid fools that want "Catchyness" and "comfortablility".

The same way kings/dictators treat average people.
No surprise people hate it.

Edited: February 19, 2019, 5:49 AM · Pop violinists play in tune.

The analogy that Mary Ellen made earlier is apt.

You're comparing pop music to McDonald's. Fine. McDonald's may not be haute cuisine, but the flavor is consistently decent no matter where you go, and you know you're not putting yourself at any undue risk of food poisoning. That's equivalent to pop violinists playing in tune.

Playing with poor intonation and tone is not McDonald's, it's more like an unlicensed street vendor or a sketchy roadside diner.

Edited: February 19, 2019, 6:00 AM · There's too much assumption in this forum that "the people" hate Classical. It has never been the #1 musical genre for most countries, not only USA. There are still thousands of classical musicians, and likely most are not rich or part of an oppressive "elite". True, many orchestras are dying, but Classical is *FAR* from being "dead" (much like some other "dead" musical genres never really died-false hyperbole.)

Some of "the people" love Classical-many rich people hate it.

I think an extreme focus on politics has gotten the best out of Mr. Krakovich's sense of real vs imagined-along with an unhealthy, elevated sense of self, where whoever disagrees with him must not only be wrong, but also be a "Classical musical terrorist" (which BTW, *is* another comment worthy of forum moderation.)

(The ten-minute Classical music "torture" for this supposed "average" person is another inflammatory, personal assumption, likely meant to makes us fight against each other. Then it is claimed he doesn't mean to troll us, and is "just stating facts"-like most trolls.)

Edited: February 19, 2019, 6:37 AM · " Most People hate classical music"

February 19, 2019, 6:39 AM · You can kill the messenger, not the fact.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 6:43 AM · Troll-let's just stop giving this any more air.
February 19, 2019, 6:51 AM · "And lets be real - If Mozart was alive today, you know he would be programming dubstep on his Macbook"
This man in the video is a genius!.

@Adalberto Valle- Rivera
The hard truth, ah?

February 19, 2019, 6:59 AM · The video is catchy, but very low on facts.
February 19, 2019, 7:02 AM · "You make me lool like a joke! A fool!"

You accomplished that for yourself by playing a Paganini Caprice while riding an exercise bicycle! I was impressed you could do it, but that doesn't make it less silly.

Edited: February 19, 2019, 7:06 AM · I've noticed that David doesn't usually react to posts more than 3 or 4 lines long. Perhaps we should write short, catchy posts, rather than "symphonic" filo, no phylo, no philosoFficle essays?
Edited: February 19, 2019, 7:48 AM · Joke? Fool?

David, in the Paganini No24 thread I was the first to reply, saying that I should like to play as fast as you, but without better intonation and tone I should be too embarrassed to post on YouTube.

No "terrorising" there! Just modesty..

My only "nasty" remark (about turning your video into a silent movie) was when I really thought you were joking.

D*mn, too long!

February 19, 2019, 7:49 AM · oerhaps "we" should ignore him, and just play music for ourselves.
February 19, 2019, 8:12 AM · Paul deck - in the video he says the same thing that I'm saying- that classical musicians treat average people as fools:
Starts at 5:59.

In my case i am not "Average" person - i have knowledge and i was excellent student in the official places i learned at classical music.
But you still treat me as fool!.
And why exactly? Because of intonation? That many, including me, feel is very reasonable overall?
You ignore everything else?

The fact that i played Paganini's!!! Caprice!!! Fully!!! At top virtuoso speed(1.5 minutes)!!! On a bike!!! With reasonable intonation!!!!
Makes me fool???

Edited: February 19, 2019, 8:22 AM · By the way - the man in the video is a professional
Who studies at Julliard.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 8:35 AM · David, you think your intonation is "reasonable"? You are not a fool, your are maybe a bit tone-deaf (which is sad.)
You think it does not matter? That is foolish..

(There, 3 lines!) (Oops,4!)

February 19, 2019, 10:03 AM · As I noted on the other now-deleted thread, the facts don't support the assertion, at least in the United States, the UK, etc.

Survey data indicates about 80% of people listen to classical music each month. Only about 15% claim to dislike it. The class divide in who listens to or dislikes classical music has diminished over the years. People without a college education are currently no more likely to dislike classical music than anyone else.

February 19, 2019, 10:20 AM · David, the gentleman in the video is joking.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 10:55 AM · No. He doesn't.
And the people that don't! Go to classical concerts don't.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 2:03 PM · David...
This guy is asking how we can promote classical music by adopting some of the trends of the modern concert experience.

And there are some things in HIS video I agree with as ways to promote the experience.

For example, let's say Hilary Hahn plays Sibelius over 4 different nights. Maybe 2 of the nights are marketed as "casual nights", where you can drink booze in the venue, and the dress code is strictly "business casual or below", and maybe she plays different encore program instead of Bach (Hilary, if you're reading this, please don't do this. I want to hear your Chaconne live). That's the kind of changes he's talking about.

Many orchestras (I wonder, do you ever go to hear live music?) have successfully adopted events like "Bugs Bunny at the Symphony", or "Harry Potter at the Symphony", or programming for kids that lets people laugh drink and eat during.

Of course, y'know, Symphony and Metallica did happen. There's even a recording of it. Clearly, professionals do this kind of thing.

He ain't saying don't play in tune. Playing out of tune should only ever be used as a comedic device as part of a skit. Ain't nobody want to hear the Earl King with those octaves out of tune. Or no phrasing. Or no rhythm. That's a torture!

As for this statement:

"Pop doesn't have any of this (i mean support)"

Have you never heard of this thing called the RIAA?

Edited: February 19, 2019, 12:07 PM · This thread reminds me of the very distressing, last two years in political life in the USA, complete with McDonald's. Thirty five percent of the people will believe the Emperor with no clothes and that the sky is indeed, not blue, and keep egging him on. Facts are a thing of the past and you don't have to believe your ears. No amount of good advise from fine players matter..... On a bike, faster than anyone else and they said it couldn't be done! So Sad.
February 19, 2019, 12:16 PM · Sad too is David's pathetic conspiracy theory.
Fake News!
February 19, 2019, 12:21 PM · @James T: Are you watching her Sibelius concert here in Chicago? I’m attending 4 nights just to see her encores! I’m hoping she plays the Chaconne as well...

Classical music isn’t dead. People have been claiming it’s death for more than half a century now. I very much prefer classical music that does not cater those with a 2-minute attention span.

Edited: February 19, 2019, 2:08 PM · Carl.

Well, I have tickets to 2 nights. Hoping to get my paper copy of Bach signed as well as her most recent vinyl release. Does she play different encores every night? Fuck me, as if this hobby didn't eat enough of money...

EDIT: I have an idea. Maybe we can promote a Classical/Pop style by asking Mrs Hahn to take requests.

February 19, 2019, 2:26 PM · Okay, I had a vacation for the weekend to NY, and I was hoping this would be dead by now. And it looks like David is calling us terrorists now? Dude, you work in politics - you know what an actual terrorist is. To compare us criticizing your violin playing to people crashing planes into buildings causing thousands of people to die is ridiculous.
Also, Adrian - if you admit to speeding (even if by accident) to a cop, then they are legally required to give you a ticket. Even if you say "I'm sorry for speeding." The best thing you can do to get out of speeding tickets is to ask for a warning.
Edited: February 19, 2019, 3:54 PM · Nina Roco
I said "Musical Terrorists",
But the fact is that you maybe not kill, but definitely ruin many people's desires to play.

People here were pretty "Nice" too about my playing:
"Paganini just rolled over in his grave to ask for some ear plugs" for example on my 24th caprice.

February 19, 2019, 3:25 PM · Carl s
Actually I recorded today the "chaconne" (the first 2 minutes)
Very hard piece:


February 19, 2019, 3:36 PM · @James T: it is definitely an expensive hobby! So happy that I get student discounts. $20 tickets and half off a subscription!

Also, I’m up for a mosh pit as well... is that still considered classical/pop?

Edited: February 19, 2019, 4:07 PM · @Carl S
That just ain't fair, man. I have good seats in the gallery but I'm paying about $150 per.

Mosh pit? I dunno. We could try during the 3rd movement of the Sibelius...

@David
Well, I'll repeat what everyone has said. If you play SLOWLY, in first position, your intonation is fine. Since you can clearly play in tune sometimes, this means you need to practice SLOWLY in higher positions. Can you really not hear the difference between playing slowly here and when you try to play Paganini as fast as possible?

You missed some notes here and there too. Since you seem to be capable of playing, why not do a second take playing it correctly, or is calling out a missed note also terrorism? Everyone is encouraging you to PRACTICE SLOWLY AND IMPROVE. Look, many people here, myself included, aren't very good at playing the violin. But people with ability far below yours are able to take criticism and learn from it. Unless, of course, you don't want to improve...

I'll leave the discussion of right hand technique to somebody else. Because I think I'm going crazy. And I think you might not be understanding why the Chaconne has the reputation it does.

February 19, 2019, 4:14 PM · I agree with James. Your left hand has been quite well trained in first position, so we know you can improve the rest. If you want to.
February 19, 2019, 4:17 PM · Lydia has voiced concerns about right hand technique and sound quality (the Bach sounds so pressed/tense...) but all of that was to little or no avail...

@James, David has said he doesn't want to practice slowly. It is good enough.

February 19, 2019, 6:38 PM · Your bowing is too harsh for the chords in the bit that I watched. I feel it should be a lot lighter and accentuated less
February 19, 2019, 8:01 PM · In addition to the sound issues, Bach is not an etude. There seems to be no understanding of the music and its voicing in David's recording.
February 19, 2019, 8:20 PM · Well, maybe he was really angry his wife died...
Edited: February 19, 2019, 11:29 PM · Well, I do use the Bach cello suites as etudes or warm-up material sometimes...

But even when using them for that purpose, I make at least some effort to play them musically.

David, do you know why that Chaconne is considered a very hard piece?

February 19, 2019, 11:36 PM · Seriously, you sure you all are violinists?
Because i can't understand how a violinist! Who should know how hard it is, Can not appreciate the ability to play very hard pieces like Bach chaconne or paganini caprices in this level (In bach chaconne the hardest thing is intonation!! And clear sound!):

Here for example i played the chaconne in the fastest! Speed!in the world That I've seen. You can compare.
This is very hard (it wasn't my intention to play fast, but it sounded the best in this speed),
The same with the caprices by paganini.


All the small issues, especially in a recording!, it is a function of free time and practice and more attempts
that i don't have (I'm not a professional violinist yet - i work on regular job 8 hours 6 days a week - i practice about 1-2 hours a day on average).

Edited: February 20, 2019, 1:13 AM · David, Bach's Chaconne is a slow, majestic piece!
When someone suggested (a few hundred posts ago..) playing it fast, it was a joke at your expense.
In Paganini's Caprices, speed without beauty of tone and intonation is worse than silence.
Why do you play the violin if you hate music so much?
Edited: February 20, 2019, 1:36 AM · You've just proven that you don't understand why the Chaconne is difficult. The hardest thing in that Chaconne is not intonation, it's the voicing and phrasing. Good intonation is only the necessary starting point.

A second thing: if you say you're playing at "high professional" level, those are the standards you're asking to be judged by. Can't have it both ways. (Not that people are actually comparing you to pros, we've seen mostly amateurs post videos in response, some of whom practice about half as much as you do. That was the whole point of the "3 hour challenge" that came up.) Besides, you're greatly overestimating the amount of time professionals can spend on one piece. They're practicing a lot, but they have to learn and play a lot of music in that time.

February 20, 2019, 9:13 AM · The voicing is also part of the technical difficulty, since the two strings (or more) that are being played do not all get the same weight, and you often have to sustain the sound on a note that you've actually released. This is why people say that you should learn the fugues before the Chaconne.
February 20, 2019, 9:22 AM · popcorn-zpsf7cjtwhk
February 20, 2019, 9:32 AM · Ya'll, David is either trolling or looking for validation. He's not interested in criticism or suggestions. Accept that and move on already.
Edited: February 20, 2019, 9:49 AM · I can play the chaconne way faster. Since you ignore phrasing and intonation why shouldnt I be allowed to ignore meter in the name of SPEED?
February 20, 2019, 10:42 AM · I cannot for the life of me understand why you continue to debate this troll, and throw away time that could be spent better.
February 20, 2019, 1:47 PM · Herman West: "I cannot for the life of me understand why you continue to debate this troll, and throw away time that could be spent better."

I kept thinking the same, but then I need to admit I at least kind of follow the discussions, and also you bothered to scroll all the way down to comment ;)

If nothing else, the whole story is quite informative, like applying a stress test to a forum to unravel personal and interaction patterns.

I sometimes wondered if the forum is just about to become part of a PhD thesis or so on social networks. Maybe this is the true background ...

February 20, 2019, 3:09 PM · As I said about 500 posts ago, it's a bit like scratching one's eczema.
Edited: February 20, 2019, 3:20 PM · My personal conclusion is that there is a need for a whole new "System", "Organization" for professional playing (for money) of classical-pop with this standards, and i intend to start building something like that.
"System" as it is in classical music which is a whole system, not just musical style.

Its like different "League" in different competitions.
And it might be eventually even more popular than classical music, as the fast food is more popular than Gourmet food.

If anyone want to join me to build it my e-mail is:
Dakrviolin@gmail.com

February 20, 2019, 3:46 PM · But David, it already exists, and at the moment you are not good enough...
February 20, 2019, 4:14 PM · Is it bad that part of me really wants to upload a video of me playing through the Chaconne in 5 minutes?

Maybe name it something like CHACONNE WORLD SPEED RECORD! HARDEST VIOLIN PART IN 5 MINUTES!

February 20, 2019, 9:39 PM · No. It isn't bad. It is very good playing!.
The problem for classical musicians with it is the same problem Royalty has to accept McDonald's as "Royal Dish"
Edited: February 20, 2019, 10:22 PM · Also -
I still want to make this "Behind curtain test" video:
The problem is that there aren't home videos of professional high level violinists to compare:
The studio recordings of professionals are "too perfect" so it is obvious when it is me,
And the "Hall performances" obvious too because of the acoustics,coughing etc.

I feel that you are very effected by the fact that I'm not a professional who plays at such level, so you try to find faults as with stradivarious violins vs modern violins - and intonation is always the easiest way to attack because it is never perfect.

Anyone knows "Home camera recordings" of this pieces by known violinists or any professional violinists?

Edited: February 20, 2019, 10:24 PM · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XegQLFE1hlE

Aaron Rosand- a screen recording of a poor-quality VHS tape. Every chord is beautifully voiced based on how the phrase is changing, and it lacks the harsh crunch found in your video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCVzThU73Ps

Andrzej Grabiec- based on the zooming, it was recorded on a smartphone or lower-end camera. The intonation is pristine and he doesn't kick the beginnings or the ends of notes like you do in your recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkjnRP6ZTtI

Josef Suk- he died a looong time ago, so the audio quality of this recording is crappy by modern standards. However, it contains a richness and fabulous intonation that your unrefined playing fails to reach. There's a time and a place for using scratch tone, and Bach isn't it.

Edited: February 20, 2019, 11:13 PM · As far as I know, all videos that my teacher has posted of himself are shot on a consumer camera or a smartphone. He's playing on a contemporary violin, too, not a Strad.

Here's his Bach A-minor fugue, which I think is a practice video shot at home, and not a performance, so more comparable to what DK is doing: LINK


February 21, 2019, 7:27 AM · I won't be trying that piece any time soon.
February 21, 2019, 10:32 AM · "I feel that you are very effected by the fact that I'm not a professional who plays at such level"

Guys...I think we're starting to get there. Baby steps.

February 21, 2019, 10:49 AM · David: there are literally thousands of people, perhaps more than ten thousand, who can "play" the Chaconne. So according to you they are all "very high level", well, fine. No point in discussing. Actually, as I wrote earlier, all you want is us to say "yes David you are very high level". Well I would perhaps be willing to say "David you are among the ten thousand best violin players in the world". Congratulations!
Edited: February 21, 2019, 12:42 PM · As an amateur lurker on this forum who's tired of seeing gibberish post titles and immediately knowing that I'm going to see David Krakovich at the top of the thread, I'm just going to say this to you:

You have poor intonation and delusions of grandeur, and when someone points out the problems with your playing, you insist that your playing is good enough and that the problem is that you're being oppressed by the musical bourgeoisie. You've literally made a thread about the monarchist nature of classical music and how good intonation is disproportionately possessed by the professional class. You've successfully rationalized away all of your technical shortcomings by applying the concepts of dialectical materialism to the context of wavy air! Bravo! Your mental gymnastics are truly of Olympic caliber. I see that you're also now proposing a revolution to democratize classical music...

People aren't bothered by someone from the amateur class of musicians being able to play at oh such a high level because it's threatening their stable musical class structure. This isn't somehow a class thing, I'm no professional and I think your playing needs work too. If you played on a strad and had a professional recording setup, your intonation would still need work. Please work on your intonation. We all need to work on our intonation and that's okay.

Edited: February 21, 2019, 10:25 PM · Thank you for the videos,
I will make a "Behind curtain" video later (also will search for other videos)

Jean Dubuisson
I played it at very hige speed with good intonation and sound, (Just 2 minutes, but still) - ut is the fastest I've seen.
The Chaconne in easier as it is slower because you have time to "Think" where to put the fingers.

The intonation is very hard at it. I took about 5 takes before it was ok fully.
Very hard not to make a mistake, especially on intonation But the bow also. And in fast speed!.

February 21, 2019, 11:08 PM · I don't know how many "millenials" are on this board, but I think I speak for all of us when I say:

"I can't even..." right now.

Edited: February 21, 2019, 11:31 PM · Smh. - Millennials unite!

@Lydia: Awesome playing by your teacher! I did not plan on watching the entire video. I just couldn't stop watching... For reference, I stopped watching David's Chaconne after the first chord.

Edited: February 22, 2019, 12:18 AM · Wow. That's absolutely my last comment here on this site:

I listened to people here as Adrian Heath who said that my threads were deleted because it was double posting, agressive etc.
So i started a new post about my Chaconne and the speed of it - nothing aggresive or "double posting" at it.
And it was deleted too.

That's it.
I'm not commenting on this site anymore.
Absolutely disrespectful attitude.
There are plenty of sites to discuss this things as was mentioned here before with respectful attitude.


February 22, 2019, 4:13 AM · How sad!
I agree though, about your "absolutely disrespectful attitude", which gets your posts erased..
You should be more careful what you say..
February 22, 2019, 5:50 AM · Adrian Heath
What did i say? I just posted the video of my chaconne and said it is the fastest in the world and that i think it sounds very good and "live" in such speed - and this is true!.

And the other posts were fine too.
The managers/commentators here simply
Feel they are Monarchs/Dictators! (What a surprise).

Is there another site/place where you can have free!!! Discussion?

February 22, 2019, 5:56 AM · It is serious! Good version. It isn't a joke. It sounds like a joke version?

February 22, 2019, 6:14 AM · The chaconne wasn't a joke,
But even if i want to make a "Serious" joke as playing Paganini's caprice on a bike, and make a thread about it, what is the problem with it?
February 22, 2019, 7:15 AM · What is "disrespectful" is referring to us as liars, snobs, dictators, and pseudo-racists.

Most of us show no disrespect to you personally, only to your playing and your pretentiousness.

Edited: February 22, 2019, 8:08 AM · But in this thread i didn't say it.
February 22, 2019, 8:19 AM · In the deleted threads you did.
And in this one - check!
And in the others - often!

Sorry you are leaving; why not come back when you have learned the patience and humility needed to play properly (not fast and out of tune!) Then folks will take you seriously..

February 22, 2019, 8:37 AM · David what is your concept of "absolutely last"?
February 22, 2019, 8:58 AM · It seems everybody agreed that this was a nonsense post - so why is it still going on? [Excuse me but I did not read through, better things to do such as buff my toenails...]

Oh, maybe this explains it... :P

February 22, 2019, 9:34 AM · I imagine there's no good reason to start another thread, given that you've already posted your Chaconne previously in this thread and received comments on it.

David, have you noticed that your chords are very harsh? It's an artifact of your physical approach to the chords, I think (though the cheap violin does you no favors).

February 22, 2019, 10:25 AM · Ok. I tried not to burn the bridge, right?

So thank you everyone for the comments, you can follow my channel and suggest there Anoother, more "Free" to discussion place.

February 23, 2019, 2:26 PM · David - A more "Free" discussion place, is that a place where the majority of the opinions on v.com is not allowed?
February 23, 2019, 3:08 PM · I think that is a bit too subtle!
February 23, 2019, 3:11 PM · let's pray it's over now.
February 23, 2019, 5:41 PM · Amen.
February 24, 2019, 2:33 AM · THANK GOD. FOR THAT
February 24, 2019, 2:36 AM · Strange day ... David left v.com and Danube Fiddler, the burden of maestronet, left that forum within the same about 24h :D
February 24, 2019, 11:43 AM · Are we just trying to make it to 300 posts?......
February 24, 2019, 12:15 PM · Just keepin' it goin'.
February 24, 2019, 12:18 PM · 300 is a perfect game ...
February 24, 2019, 12:42 PM · 300 is a good number, and we keep checking this thread :-)
February 27, 2019, 10:27 AM · I don't think that Greensleeves, attributed to Henry VIII of England, is particularly long, and the motet of his I heard, though longer, was not that long either. Again, I don't know that Anne Boleyn's compositions were that long.
Edited: February 27, 2019, 12:04 PM · Long compared to what? Short compared to what? If you really like it, it can't be too long. If you don't like it can't be too short.
The question though is.........................................................
...........................................................
...........................................................
...........................................................
..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
...........................................Is it CATCHY ???????????????
Edited: February 28, 2019, 4:39 PM · Sorry, it's only me!

I just bumped the thread to make folks wince at the 283 count...;)

Edited: February 28, 2019, 5:09 PM · Guys, here is be playing Brahms VIolin Concerto.

Very difficult piece!!

Only the first 2 minutes but still, I played it faster than HIlary Hahn (she does not even have perfect INTONation as a proffessional, but you terrorize me for not being perfect?? how???)

This is very Catchy.

March 1, 2019, 5:45 PM · children, enough now.
March 2, 2019, 5:58 AM · Quote-
1. The music should be catchy as possible, And easy to listen to.
2. High level, "Classical" level performances. Both musically and technically.
3. You can edit the classical pieces as you wish- cut parts, merge, even glue different pieces etc. In orderfor it to be catchy.
4. New instruments are legitimate (as long as the high level professionalism is maintained).
5. "Relative" approach to intonation accuracy and other mistakes- better intonation is preferred and appreciated, but the Barrier for proffesional playing is decided by the player and the public- if the player and the public feel it is good enough, it is good enough.

This sounds to me like he needs to get a DAW, especially in relation to #3 and #4.(digital Audio Workstation) which is simply a computer set up for audio work ITB (in the box). There's a high standard there too. I mean , it's still music.Can't get away from intonation there either.
This isn't shameless self promotion.I don't care if you don't listen to it or if you do. I was going back through some of my old stuff and thought of David and "catchy".

March 2, 2019, 6:19 AM · I am lying in wait to make a 301st posting.
March 2, 2019, 6:21 AM · No, it will be a 302nd, including the OP.

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