Ever heard of a black female classical violinist?
Have you ever seen or known a black female classical violinist? Or any classical string player for that matter either as a soloist or player in a professional orchestra? Even a performance major in college or instructor at a university?
At some point it occurred to me I'd never heard of nor can I find any mention of a black female classical trumpeter or violinist. They seem to be non-existent. I find some black female jazz players and street performers but don't find any classical players.
Seeing the amount of static that's ensued, thanks to those who have actually given informational answers my question.
Yes I have. A few in fact.
Why the weird question?
Really? Can't think of a single black female string player? Because on viola alone (I'm more familiar with violists than violinists), Nokuthula Ngwenyama is a top-tier soloist and I know of at least two black women who are principal violists in professional orchestras.
I like Regina Carter.
Tim's obviously a Trump supporter!!!
[A thread I'd prefer not to have got involved in.]
Seriously, why the invective?
Nokuthula Ngwenyama and Melissa White are the first two that come to mind for me.
See? On this site you can still ask a simple question and get a simple answer. Of course there will always be some who will try to turn the thread into nuclear war with some kind of political rant, but you can just ignore them.
Sorry to disappoint you, Taylor, but I don't support Trump.
Our local Folk Music Centre had a black luthier, I still think you voted for Trump, its typical of the kind of nonsense his supporters spew!!
On that Tim, yes I think priviledge should be given to historically oppressed/enslaved/persecuted people not given to others, in order to help heal and repair damage inflected on them -historically and presently- by others as long as this does not in turn lead to the dispossesion and oppression of others. So yes, scholarships, opportunities, quotas..etc
Tim Ripond "...Why the weird question?..."
Do you love Trump or something? Can you live without saying his name?
I think there are professionals or at least good violinists of every sort. It's a cultural divide, and genetics have nothing to do with it. I believe there should be more, but the numbers of "classical minorities" (invented term, for lack of better words) are not that big to begin with. Let's hope and work towards a broader representation of human talent accross all ethnicities-the poor are also a bit misrepresented, though there are good success stories out there.
Scott, I'm not represented by anyone except me, whatever Trump says, or any of his supporters, are not my thoughts and ideas, I can think for myself, thank you. I don't know what Trump says about female black violinists, or his supporters, neither I care.
Tim you're the one coming across as sounding like a racist, and I'm not hiring, anybody!!
Jeff Jetson "... I like Regina Carter..."
Tim Ripond "...Scott, I'm not represented by anyone except me, whatever Trump says, or ..."
If blacks were interested in classical music and luthiery, they would pursue classical music and luthiery. But they generally aren't, because it doesn't run in their history and isn't relevant to them today.
Cotton Mather "...Now burn me at the stake for entering into this ****show..."
"If blacks were interested..." this is why you get burned.
To really answer the thread, there is a number of classically trained good female (and male) violinists out there-not sure if in the big orchestras or soloists, but they exist for sure. Why not that many? The aforementioned cultural divide and such few numbers among the entire classical violinist population. That is what I suggest we improve, by giving those interested in classical music the required tools to thrive.
Actually something like this thread brings up a related topic (sorry for hijacking) but since I do a lot of research into classical violin for my work projects, it becomes more and more clear that the serious pursuit of classical music is for people who are wealthy. The cost of high level lessons, good instruments, music camps, accompanists , etc. All this is beyond the reach of people with limited means regardless of race.
Another question: How many Asian pro football players do you know of.
I just came across this article written gor the Strad from 2014 and it makes very good sense.
Sorry Scott, the Trump stuff was related to Lyndon, the only one that brought in Trump and kept talking about it, that's why I said I don't care what Trump or any of his supporters have to say about any topic, now specifically about black female violinists.
Two violinists, a violist and a cellist right here:
I'm not talking about politics, I did not want to talk about any party or specific person, yet Lyndon believes he has the liberty of accusing me of racist and knows what party I support. What exactly did I say that according to you none will agree?
unfortunately history has shown when people with attitudes like your's get in charge, racism just gets worse and worse, the current climate is a good example of that.
Personally, I find those who insist everybody must be racially categorized, and that such categories are definitive aspects of personal identity, and that such categories should be considered for scholarships and other special opportunities, and for branding who is "oppressed" and who is "privileged" --to me THOSE are the racist people, dedicated to crystalizing people into permanent difference and separate categories based on counterproductive group identities that serve no positive social function.
Can you stop calling racist to people you don't know and tell me exactly what is it that I said is racist?
Tim, I was once a liberal but got very tired of all their identity politics and calling "racist" anyone who didn't agree with their racializing virtually all politics and culture. If you resist their supposed "social justice" agenda, then you are a racist because, ironically, you don't believe their arbitrary and unscientific racial categories should be applied to virtually every social or political or economic or cultural question.
Its not just about a grand father that killed yours.
Tim, your first point, not holding a child responsible for the crimes of the father, is not a useful way of explaining away or rectifying a society’s historical and current differences in treatment and opportunity for certain groups; your second point assumes a level playing field, which I find ludicrous.
Thank you Nate. I'm a bit frustrated with some posters that call me racist for no reason, I'm saying pretty basic ideas.
Yeah you're stating pretty basic right wing reactionary ideas that are tearing this country apart.
Tim was English your first language?
Lyndon, just forget it, hahaha, you're a lost case. Yes I'm racist and I eat black people all nights. Hahaha, I mean, hahaha, if you're racist, it's because you are, if you're not, that's what racist people claim, so you're racist as well. You're so halarious actually.
Nate -- I made and make no such assumptions. Period. Moreover, my statement does not depend on such assumptions. In fact, I was not specifically limiting my statement to poverty or the experience of African Americans.
Can you tell me in which college, high school, music school or conservatoire of the USA you can't apply if you are black, or female, or in which one the points/admission system adds points if you're a white male?
Why is it always white males that claim the system is not biased??
Tim - "Tim was English your first language?"
Are you assuming I'm a white male?
I normally would not reply to things like this , but I find it unfortunate that people cannot get along. We haver resorted to making assumptions and throwing wild accusations out of the blue. This goes for either side of the political spectrum.
Denis, I get along with anyone that is not mind controlled by lobby's and politics. I've been called racist, Trump supporter and that if I ever had any power, my God, I'm gonna destroy the world. It's simply these people I can't stand because they always react violently and insulting when they sense someone is not following today's politic standards.
Very entertaining thread.
Denis, I do not see where the respect and civility is when someone's first reaction to someone else's question about black violinists to encourage youngsters is : why ask the weird question?
Heaven forbid we could find ways to encourage more black aspiring musicians!!!
It's unfortunate that we have to resort to assumptions of each other. Words like fascist / nazi get thrown around to easily.
Tim, I didn't say you were a fascist. If you note carefully, I strictly excluded you from the phrase (saying you were irrelevant to it) concerning Trump and his ilk. It was in response to Denis' post. Now if you believe it's OK to do what Trumps advocates and likes, then that is something else. You would be implicitly included.
Denis, I'm not throwing around the word fascist willy nilly. The link between right wing nationalist movements and idealogues and Trump can hardly be denied.
Yes I can agree that there's definitely a link, but I can also say that this mentality was there long before trump, and while it was somewhat hidden, it was stil very strong.
Why are you few talking about Trump constantly?
Thank God, the forum drama is alive and kicking. Sometimes it's dormant for a while and I get concerned.
We're talking about Trump because people like you voted for him, Tim, and now he's the President, and he encourages racism in America, defends white supremacists, and has a long history of sexual assaults and supporting abusers, that really ticks me off, its not business as usual, its the start of a move towards a more fascist America. It has to be fought tooth and nail IMHO
I'm pretty sure this forum is not the proper one to share your political views (not because you can't, but because it's not the place), neither to share your black magic tricks results to know which party I vote.
Well lets just say I've never heard a Democrat express views like yours!!
Yes, has nothing to do with centuries of enslavement, segregation, forced poverty and mass imprisonment. Any reason, or lack of reason except for that. It's about single parent birth. Charles found the key ingredient. It's sex.
Oh brother, Charles!! So I guess that blacks are just inferior and the ways our society has treated them has absolutely nothing to do with it???
Our society? OUR?
Why aren't there more cats playing the clarinet?
you f'd up the page David, try fixing your html
So being totally against racism makes us impossible to get along with, figured as much.
"notice its the white cat playing the clarinet!!"
Oh, damn, David!, hahahahaha.
"So being totally against racism makes us impossible to get along with"
Tim it's because of people like you that this question needs to be asked.
It's because of people like Tim doing what? Expressing a position in favor of racial or gender equality/neutrality?
On the luthier end of things, I know of only one African-American female who has applied for a job or learning position, and she was accepted.
My best friend was one, until she had to give up her pro career after the financial crisis. She wasn't a household name, but she had a good quartet, which she travelled internationally with, and held down jobs in several decent orchestras.
A specific person in this thread is making me laugh a lot.
Yeah, you have neo nazi parties represented in Parliament, and the same racism and hysteria about immigrants. At least in America we have David Burgess making world acclaimed violins but supporting right wing presumably racist posters??
I have an intense headache, may be I didn't eat my daily ration of black people. I must be low on vitamin B, damn. I'm dropping this thread, it's like discussing with walls. Oh, black walls, well white, no, just forget about the walls color. Got it, rainbow colored!
The worlds just getting better and better???? LOL
Lyndon, what value do you find in trying to pigeon-hole people into one of only two categories? Is it because that's intellectually less challenging than assessing each argument, and each person individually according to their merits?
Maybe you're Libertarian, I don't know. But Tim espoused identical views I over and over hear from far right Trump supporters, its not an anti racist position in any way I can see. Black people in America have on the average been dealt a very bad hand, and don't have the opportunities presented to them that most white and Asian Americans do. This is largely a function of hundreds of years of institutional racism. To say that being colourblind and treating blacks equally is the solution would only work if everyone were doing it and they're not. Its kind of like golf games where even people like Trump are given a handicap, it doesn't hurt one bit to give a black student entry to college with a slightly lower GPA than a white student. Why because it has been shown that that black student does just as well in college when given the opportunity, as the white student with the higher high school GPA. Why? Because they are motivated, and their slightly lower GPA is not the result of lower ability but a result of higher environmental difficulties they faced that that privileged white student never had to face. The massive inequality between blacks and whites is not going to be solved by treating everyone equally, that's been tried and the blacks get the short end of that stick. Maybe an income based affirmative action would be more just, that's debatable, but someone has to address just how much harder it is to grow up in a ghetto and make a success of you life
OK, you've kind of fallen into the "pigeon-holing" thing again.
David that is another topic though, be it pertinent and relevant. No one is denying that hard work gets one places, but hard work alone is not the sole factor here. And I don't see anyone here whining...why are you applying that sort of talk here? Either one accepts or rejects the influence of factors being brought up by Lyndon or myself or others, that's fine, but sidestepping into another topic is misleading.
I feel kind of bad that Mr. Roberts' question kind of got sidelined...
I think a big mistake is to just assume how hard someone’s life is or is not because of their race.
Tammuz, I'm not quite gettin' your drift. I never claimed that poverty stems from a lack of hard work, only that hard work in today's US society (along with being able to accept some good guidance) has the potential to overcome it. But I also wouldn't accept economic enrichment as the only definition of "success". Far from it! If you could present your perspective without needing to put words in my mouth, I would very much appreciate that.
Jocelyn Marrow -
I could not brace myself to read all comments here.... just recently have been reading about protestantism my attempt to understand the context Bach lived and worked in. One of the chapters was about slavery and how protestants supported it and then fought against it.... have to admit that Baroque music still sounds the same, but have some sour notes with the awareness that it was written for privileged few while slaves worked to accumulate the wealth.
Rocky, I was thinking very much about El Sistema as I was writing. But I thought I wasn't going to make my post any longer...then I did. :)
The concept of racial disadvantage is really not that difficult to understand, which leads me to believe some people are being wilfully ignorant.
Mary Corbett, Florida Orchestra.
I had a stand partner who is a black female violinist. She's a fantastic player. Never met anyone in my life more passionate about Shostakovich.
David Burgess wrote: 'Do your homework!'
Guglielmus, is this book about the past, or the present? If it's about the present, how does the book explain the 45% of African Americans who are “middle class”, and the forty-three percent who own homes (according to an annual report from the Joint Center for Housing Studies of Harvard University)?
David Burgess--'Couldn't an attempt to stereotype African Americans as "poor" be considered a bit racist?'
Adalberto, I have no reason to disagree with you. The only reason I originally got involved in this thread, was to take issue with the accusation that an earlier poster was "racist", because he was of the opinion that all races should be treated equally. Then, unfortunately, I let myself get sucked into defending myself, when it was asserted that I believe things which in fact I do not.
David: "The only reason I originally got involved in this thread, was to take issue with the accusation that an earlier poster was "racist", because he was of the opinion that all races should be treated equally."
Tammuz, you might be going a bit overboard with your emotional interpretations of what has actually been said, yet again.
David, really, it's a total waste of time, these people are always insulting (racist, misogynistic, whatever-phobic, large etc), when not insulting they read you through their hugely distorted vision of reality and interpret your words in a very false way, then they will put words in your mouth you never said, they are always tagging, always dividing people into groups (bad ones and good ones), always wanting to confront a free will, etc... they are pretty much dominated by politicians and newspapers, agendas, they are easily influenced, they only talk about topics politicians want them to talk about, they really can't think by themselves, you're not with them then you are the enemy and fall into the "bad" group with defined views and ways of thinking. It's always the same, and it's quite sad. Paradoxically, I really think people would be much more free if politicians and newspapers didn't exist, that would make them think by themselves. There would be fear, fear of not fitting, fear of being alone defending one point of view, fear caused by freedom, fear to be unique and face alone a presumably "famous shared" point of view. But we don't want to feel that fear, do we?
More evidence of why this all started!!!
David, I actually, I had Anish Carmen's post in mind, so not OP's. You are right there, but not in that it was an interpretation (lapse of memory rather). But even if the purpose of the OP was not stated, that doesn't negate the other points I said. You have not responded to any of the other points. Also this is not emotional for me, must you always include condescension?I think I have enough reason to think it bizzare that, when speaking of how racism and discrimination has ended up setting one group far behind from the other, that hard work should be brought up.
I don't think Tim was being racist, but he invited trouble by adding his own judgement into his answer, to a question that ostensibly only seeks for facts.
Again, Nokuthula Ngwenyama has been an international touring viola soloist. (She has been less active as a performer in recent years, most likely because of the other hats now she wears as an arts administrator.)
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