Chinrest - Centered over Tailpiece
Does anybody have any comments about Chinrests centered over the tailpiece, with no hump (or with hump)? A bit like the Flesch from Shar. What kind of violinists would use this (with what kind of needs)?
Replies
I don't really like them. I used to dislike the Guarneri because my neck was too short, but now my neck is rather long and they are my favorite chinrests. In either case, I can't hold the violin with the center chinrest, or rather, I have to clench.
This past summer, I switched to the Flesch Flat Violin/Viola Chinrest, which centers over the tailpiece. I loved it right away.
I must be built right for it, because the violin hold is, if anything, easier than in the past. It's easier now to hold the instrument more directly in front of me. After using the Flesch on my 1869 Paul Pilat for several weeks, I ordered two more — one for my 1883 Joseph Altrichter and another for my 1921 Léon Bernardel. I can't imagine going back to the chinrests I used to have on these instruments.
I gained an additional benefit — one that I hadn't expected. From my student days, I always used a Strad Pad to minimize skin irritation from contact with the chinrest; but when I put on the Flesch Flat — guess what, folks — I didn't need the Strad Pad. The chin hold is now, if anything, even more comfortable and secure than before. I practice and play about three hours a day, sometimes four or five. The skin on the neck is fine — no soreness or unnatural reddening.
I have an instructor who uses a centered chinrest, but it's not round, but more of a square or kidney shaped chinrest. I need to ask him the name of the designer, because I'd like to try one myself. I've done some web research, and it looks to me like it may be a SAS chinrest, but don't quote me on that one. I've had a big problem with my setup lately, so I was looking up about chinrests/shouler rests.
I think centered chin rests are best for people with shorter necks, i heard it on violin masterclass, so don't quote me.
Greetings,
Carley, I doubt if it is the SAS. They do go pretty much over to the left although there is a lot of room for adjustment. They are also extremely high. I have one but I don`t use it. The idea is good and I like high chinrests but the shape is really importnat and that particular rest is quite odd in my book. Splashing out without a longish trial would be a bit of a gamble,
Cheers,
Buri
These days a huge percentage of violins are set up with side-positioned cups on chinrests that are center-mounted, over the tailpiece (the "Guarneri" chinrest is the common version of this). If you look at the way a lot of players hold their violins, you'll see that they don't really use the cup, but instead hook their chins over the narrower section of the rest that bridges the tailpiece. Though it looks a bit funny because we're not used to it, in view of this, I think centered-cup chinrests make a reasonable kind of sense.
Yes, I've heard that centre ones are best for shorter necks, but for some reason I've got a rather long neck but I use a centre chin rest (New Flesh) and had it built up by at least 1.5cm and my shoulder rest is incredibly high as well but it works for me.
I think it's all about trial and error and we're all different so different things suit different people. I used to have a side chine rest and thena a centre chin rest with a bump in the middle and they didn't tickle my pickle - too much clenching, but now with this centre built up chin rest i'm feeling a lot better about it, I don't clench and I've found that my whole body is a lot more relaxed. *hooray for relaed body when playing violin*:)
Danielle said, "I think centered chin rests are best for people with shorter necks, i heard it on violin masterclass, so don't quote me." have a very long neck, and I strongly prefer to use a centered chin rest.
It could possibily have something to do with the slope of the shoulder as well.I have one or two students to whom I recommended a centre chin rest.As our phisiology is different,I think it is a combination of varoius factors.If I see that a student who is relaxed in every other way has a tendancy to place their chin over the centre piece I suggest they give the centre chin rest a try.
It was nice. I used to use one and loved it but it was putting pressure on my tailpiece because it hands over a larger length the tailpiece (as the tailpiece rises).
I switched back to a guarneri one for now.
I was always under the impression that you only use a center chinrest if you're right arm is shorter than most... something along the lines of that.
There's two students in the year below me, one on violin and one on viola, that have started not using a chinrest. Could anyone explain any logic behind this?
My son does not use a chinrest, and coicidentally neither does his teacher. His teacher wants him to use a shoulder rest, but he doesn't always comply.
I don't use a shoulder rest but do use a chinrest. On my big viola, I do not use a chinrest but do use a shoulder rest. Why? Because it works, but not becasue it is correct or not--I just do.
My viola teacher doesn't use a chin-rest on her viola, but does on her violin. In her case, it's because she's quite short with a short neck and finds that a shoulder-rest, but no chin-rest works best for her on her viola.
Neil
I use the chinrest centered over the tailpiece to compensate for one of my bad habits. I like it, and it works well.
CHINREST OVER TAILPIECE.
This is a personal choice, and depends on how comfortable one finds this. Anna Sofie Mutter has her rest in this position, and I see that Josh Bell is now doing the same. The truth of the matter , if one observes videos of most violinists, including Heifetz, Oistrakh and many more, while the don't have the chin rest in this position, in reality that seems to be where their CHIN is, for the most part. To use the rest above the tailpiece changes the position of the violin and moves it further left, making the D and G a little harder to get to without tilting the violin and moving the left elbow to the right. I have tried both and found this rest position somewhat uncomfortable. If I could play like Anna Sophie Mutter, I'd gladly change, but for know I don't need to compound the difficulties.
Heifetz didn't use one so NOBODY should!
I kid, I kid.
Greetings.I have tried all sorts of chin rests over the years.The biggest problem is finding one that doesn't rip your neck to pieces.I now use a carl Flesch rest which I have modified by filing and sanding down the rough edges to fit my neck.It's worth trying.Cheers. John Taylor.
I use a chinrest that has a tail going over the tailpiece with a lump.
Usually I prefer just the roundish cups, with no tail, because the tail really gets in my way, and I rest my chin on it, rather than the cup. I just want a cup! The tails hurt!
Just thought I'd put what the Carl Flesch book says on Chin rests...it's right there on the page I'm reading now ^^
"The model which sits in the middle of the violin has not proved itself, because the instrument gets shifted too much to the left. At the same time, because it straddles the tailpiece, the whole area of the lower jaw, is located very high, or far from the violin, which entails hearing oneself in too objective a manner and the whole contact is not intimate enough. To me, the most desirable model is the one that partially covers the tailpiece and thereby prevents any possible pressure on it by the chin" (4)
Never even thought of that last point...it would make you monumentally out of tune if you rested your chin on the tailpiece...
I got 3 viola chinrests a few years ago and now use the Strad rest on the viola and centred Flesch rest on the violin, built up with cork flooring. I find this gives me the best chance of keeping the left arm and shoulder far enough to the left to allow the bow arm to work properly, in fact I am amazed how twisted I was for so many years in this respect with a normal rest.
The only problem with this I find is that it affects the ease with which the LH can move into the higher positions. I don't find it's a problem on violin but do on viola so the Strad rest allows me to move my head more to the left if required.
Another very fine player who uses the Flesch style is Viviane Hagner - she has excellent legato and I find this is one of the major benefits.
Hi there,
I've seen them used on a few violins, they present themselves alot on violins used for fiddle playing or folk music especially. I myself have never used one, but those who do seem to find it comfortable enough. It would obviously develop a somewhat more different technique and cause change to the position of the shoulders i suppose... i would like to try one one day! Are you thinking of trying one?
Thanks, Buri...I guess I'll just have to ask...
huh?
Hey! A chinrest over the tailpiece is used when the players' arms are not quite long enough to draw the entire bow across the strings with a completley straight bow. At Interlochen this summer, we had a masterclass about proper violin setup. It was quite informative. Hope this helps.
structurally it is desireable to clamp the chinrest over the tailpiece which provides solid blocking between each clamp
otherwise, over time, a slowly collapsing side is unavoidable
a repair i detest making it is like cleaning up the varnish for someone that doesn't wipe down thier instrument
how a doctor must feel about treating lung damage for a smoker self inflicted stupid
the rest itself can reach anywhere you might want it to be there are many more rests avaliable than you are likely to see on display in a shop
be specific about what you want
making something custom out of a couple of stantard items is not a big deal
if you luthier thinks it is that's your first clue to try another luthier
it really depends on your physical build what chinrest/shoulder rest one uses. most of the violinists/violists in my HS orchestra use a wittier chinrest, either center or side, and differesnt shoulder rests, wheter it be Kun, Bin Music, Playonair, or Viva la musica (i think thats what its called.) I use a viva chinrest and bonmusica shoulder rest for viola, and since I barely (if ever, esp. more recently) use my violin, a witter side chin rest and a bon musica shoulder rest works just fine with me.
I was watching the Boston SO yesterday, and I was amazed at how ucomfortable most of the players looked. I think that it is quite fashionable (if that is the correct phrasing to use) to use a guaneri chinrest and a Kun shoulder rest, and this is the set up that many players use. like was said alreay in this discussion, it was already said that the majority of players blar on the small part of the chinrest over the tail piece. I htink more violinists/violists should look at the option of other setups!!
cheers,
Bethany :)
When considering this choice bear in mind that an over the tailpiece chinrest cup will tend to put the violin higher up on top of the shoulder. This then neccesitates the right arm to reach higher (the strings are higher above the floor). If you look at a Milstein video you will see a very good case for using a side mounted chinrest cup. The violin is relatively closer to the floor, so his shoulders and whole body have the sort of relaxation that goes with not having to reach up very much to get the bow to the strings.
My daughter started with a private teacher this summer, and one of the first things she noted was that my daughter had exactly the same problem with the normal "side mount" chinrest that the teacher did. My daughter is quite petite in build, as is this teacher. Once the teacher pointed it out to me, I could see that the shoulder rest and chinrest as positioned weren't working at all for good posture.
I had the chinrest changed that very day (the lesson was in the violin shop), and the new chin rest, although not completely over the tailpiece, is much more centered. Everything works together much better now!
So, it would depend on your build what would work for you.
My friend plays with his chinrest in the middle, and I've heard Joshua Bell does, too...so it must not be too much of a disadvantage, I'm not sure if it improves your playing at all.
FWIW I'm a total beginner to the violin. My instrument came with the sort of chinrest that has the cup off to the side. Holding it felt horribly unnatural in the store, but I thought that was just because I had no clue what I was doing.
When I had my first leasson though, the teacher told me how to hold the thing and I immediately wanted to have my chin over the tailpiece. So after trying her violin with a Flesch chinrest, I got one and I can't believe how much better it feels.
I recently switched to a center chin rest and I love it. I used to have pain in my left shoulder because the chin rest on the side wasn't high enough. Using the center chinrest feels much more comfortable and natural. I suppose it's all a matter of preference though.
My two cents:
My experience has been that a center-mounted chinrest brings the instrument farther over the left shoulder, and therefore makes it easier for the left arm to shift--there's less instrument for the arm to "go around" on the way up or down. For me, this works especially well for my viola, as I don't like playing a dinky instrument, but since I'm primarily a violinist, I can't try to be too much of a hero. So that's one consideration. (Yes it does make it harder to go to the tip of the bow, but I can live without those few inches...)
There's one more interesting concept I've read *somewhere* (can't remember--probably an old ASTA journal) and that is the case of which eye is dominant. We've all taught students whose left arms naturally want to "open up" to the left, which knocks their hand position all out of whack--their fingers squish together and there's little differentiation between whole and half steps because they don't have enough finger flexibility. Well, try this: tear a small hole in a sheet of paper and have the student hold it out in front of himself, using both hands. Have him focus his eyes on something small, and gradually bring the paper toward his face, continuing to focus on that object. Eventually the paper will gravitate to one eye or the other. That will be his dominant eye. (Or, you can just have the kid pick up a camera and see what eye is dominant.)
Students who are left-eyed tend to tip their heads to the right when looking at music, thereby trying to "look at the music" with the left (stronger) eye. They don't realize they're doing this, btw. If you put a center-mount chinrest on a left-eyed student's instrument, you will likely see an immediate difference in his head position (less tilted) and his left arm position (less opened out), and may well see improved intonation quickly. I've had several students who were left-eyed and the center mounted Flesch (we used the one with the hump) improved their issues dramatically.
OK, that was more like four cents...hope it was of some help.
There's really not much of a difference between Guarneri and Strad chinrests. I use a Guarneri (or a Strad, I can't really tell the difference!) which is completely off the to the left side of my violin. Although such chinrests do give people "violin hickeys," they are my personal preference because it allows me to focus on both hands equally (sorry if that doesn't really make much sense). I guess my brain functions better with my chinrest positioned like it is!
I just got my Ohrenform (Berber is the same I believe)which isn's quite as centered as the flesch and I love it. I actually move it a bit to the left, not directly centered, and this suits me perfect.
Oliver Steiner is on to the line of thought I had about this. I don't think it is that much about the length of neck, but where on the collarbone or shoulder the player feels he/she wants to support the violin's weight. He does mention a caveat in terms of what happens to the bow/bow arm when the violin is either further left, further up, or both. If the violin truly feels best up there, then some specific attention to what the bow hand and arm are doing seems very much in order. Sue
Adam ---- The difference between Strad and Guarneri chinrest are:
Strad: Deep cup, "tail" height is less, the chinrest lies lower to the instrument, and they generally way less.
Guarneri: Shallower cup, "tail" height is higher, the chinrest is higher that the Strad, and they generally way more.
There are probally much, much more smaller details but those would be your main ones.
there is this article in feb 07 issue of American String Teacher penned by denig and frisch from virginia area where they investigated about the common, not necessarily the proper use of chinrest by about 50 students. they classified chin/jawline into bony, or fleshy or in between and came up with some interesting observation and suggestion. this is from my memory, having glanced at it while waiting for my kid's piano class, so don't count on it for accuracy. i suppose some v.comers have that mag and can elaborate. for someone with issues of comfort with chinrest, may want to dig out this article and explore.
and ku-dos! to those investigators for taking the time and interest to explore issues very important to violinists but neglected for no good reason:)
I've heard explained that centered chinrests position the violin farther to the left so that the right arm does not have to reach as far, which is an advantage for players with shorter arms. Sounds reasonable to me.
The SAS chinrest, which I use at present, has the right height for me, but much else about it is not as good. Its sharp edges cut into my chin, and it has not enough of a rim to hold the violin back when shifting down. Still I prefer it to a lower rest.
>I use the chinrest centered over the tailpiece to compensate for one of my bad habits.
Tom, you've really left us dangling here, and now I can't let it go. Bad habit = Cigarette smoking? Drooling? Speaking your mind too much? Crunching ice cubes with your molars? Winking at pretty (or ugly) women as they pass?
Sorry. I'll stop now. It's just that you ignited that writer's imagination of mine. : )
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
My teacher prefers the side-positioned, center-mounted style and had me change it on my beginner violin when I started. She felt center-mounted allowed for the best sound and resonance. I have the same style on my newer fiddle. But Michael has a great point here:
> If you look at the way a lot of players hold their violins, you'll see that they don't really use the cup, but instead hook their chins over the narrower section of the rest that bridges the tailpiece. Though it looks a bit funny because we're not used to it, in view of this, I think centered-cup chinrests make a reasonable kind of sense.
That's me, and yup, good point!
I am assuming a center chin rest makes the player shift the whole violin a bit more to the left, or maybe a lot more, but does the angle of the violin then change? It seems like a shift more to the left would require you then to angle the violin more to the right.
Generally speaking chinrests mounted over the block (center mounted) tend to mute the sound of an instrument more than side mounted chinrests. A side mounted chinrest will not damage an instrument provided the screws aren't over tightened. On the instruments I make I insert a section of lining vertically on the bass side rib where the chin rest normally is placed. This is to prevent the rib buckling from the chin rest pressure
Oded Kishony
From the research my colleague Lynne Denig and I have done over the past three years, most players tend to fit their bodies to the setup of the instrument rather than fitting the instrument and setup to their bodies.
This is especially true for musicians who play on instruments that are too long, and for those who use hard shoulder rests. The rigid shapes of hard shoulder rests tend to dictate where the instrument is positioned on the shoulder.
Lynne and I have found that players tend to be more comfortable, and play with less tension, when they position the instrument on their collar bone based on the flexibility of their left arm and length of the pinky on the left hand.
To do this, put the instrument in rest position. Angle the neck and scroll upwards, say in the direction of where the ceiling and wall in your room meet. Imagine the angle being similar to someone playing the guitar. Put the tip of the thumb in the crook of the neck with the other four fingers placed at the edge of the fingerboard past the G-string. The right hand holds the lower bout with the thumb side of the hand on the spruce top side and the other fingers on the maple back. Be sure your head is looking straight ahead.
Then, quickly move the instrument (with both hands!) onto your collar bone. Very important -- keep the shape of the left hand, keep your head looking straight ahead, and don't reposition the instrument once it's on the collar bone. Repeat this several times to get the hang of it. Once you are ready, place the instrument back on the collar bone. Next, turn your head to the left with your nose looking down fingerboard. Now, drop your chin toward the tailpiece. This will determine the position of the chinrest.
Please note that we do not recommend that you lock your head facing the fingerboard. Locking yourself in a static position is one of the primary causes of pain related problems. Also, you may feel muscles pulling in the back of your left shoulder. This is a sign of loss of shoulder function.
Using this method as a guide will determine where the jaw comes down in relation to the tailpiece. As a general rule, musicians with very short arms or fingers (or too large an instrument) will find that their jaws come down over the tailpiece, so a center mounted chinrest position may work best for them. NEXT CHALLENGE - finding the right contour and height.
Best regards,
Gary
Oded Kishony said:
Generally speaking chinrests mounted over the block (center mounted) tend to mute the sound of an instrument more than side mounted chinrests. A side mounted chinrest will not damage an instrument provided the screws aren't over tightened. On the instruments I make I insert a section of lining vertically on the bass side rib where the chin rest normally is placed. This is to prevent the rib buckling from the chin rest pressure.
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A center mounted chin rest will mute the sound if the legs of the rest put pressure on the plate beyond the end block. If you make sure that you don't extend beyond the end block the plates are free. A center mounted won't damage an instrument either as long as you don't over tighten.
AP
Hi,
I found this discussion very helpful but now I'm rather a bit confused. I'm going to buy a new chinrest from an online shop (it's hard to find a music shop nearby my place where I can buy chinrest and allows me to try before I buy). I'm 15, 5'8" and has medium-sized neck and fingers but quite a broad jaw, I guess. And I've been using something which looks like Teka (I don't know for sure) and I prefer something more to the center. I decided to stop using a SR like months ago but it seems that it adds a bit of pain and I can't hold my violin without using my left hand, or I have to clench it, or it will slip away. But I don't want to use SR anymore :-) I'm choosing between Strad-style, Guarneri or Flesch. Which one I have to get, do you think? And is it good to get something like Gelrest? Thank you so much!
*seems like I revived an old discussion but since it's not archived yet so I won't make a new thread! Hehe
Rgds,
Jefta
hi jefta
there are silicon mats that stick to the varnish without glue and can be removedd without damage, they will keep your violin from slipping.
as for chinrest, Witnner makes two models of centered chinrests that are adjustable in angle and heigth. very good to experiment and find out what works for you.
Annabel Perkley said,
A center mounted chin rest will mute the sound if the legs of the rest put pressure on the plate beyond the end block. If you make sure that you don't extend beyond the end block the plates are free. A center mounted won't damage an instrument either as long as you don't over tighten.
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I agree, and addressed this issue on my center mounted CR by carefully cutting away the parts of the cork that extended beyond the block. Hence, the only contact of the CR with the table now lies entirely within the area of the block within.
Further, I always tighten up my chinrests just sufficiently that they don't slip or move when playing, but so that a firm tug will slide them off the instrument (without damage to the instrument, of course). If you need a tool to take it off, then it's certainly on too tight.
Thank you Henriette and Linda for the suggestions! Luckily, I have a friend who would like to help me out to choose. He has a friend who does repairs and fitting. I will try it first. Anyway, I have another question - is slipping related to the height of the chin rest? i mean, if I get the higher chinrest will it more or less solve the slipping problem? Thanks.
Jefta
Guarneri chinrests allowed me to accidentally press down on the tailpiece, causing myriad issues.
I use a side mounted but elevated...thing. Clamps in the side but extends over the tailpiece.
Like many writing in this discussion, I have tried a number of chinrests. At the suggestion of my teacher (who uses a Flesch), I tried this center-mounted option, but it didn't feel comfortable. Instead I tried an apparently obscure model called Shulze Priska, that seems to be a compromise between the strongly left-biased Guarneri, and the dead-center Flesch. I incidentally found that about 1.5mm of cork under the chinrest helped - with a Kuhn shoulder rest, I can comfortably hold the instrument without any hand support, and this has been very beneficial. ...Bottom line - if you want to experiment with transition to a center chinrest, consider a Shulze Priska.
I moved my Flesch center chinrest over to the side of the tailpiece and find it much more comfortable. I got the idea from our conductor, who had done that...I was a bit surprised, but it works!
Using Teka, but have used the ubiquitous Guarneri and the centered Flesch throughout my violin playing journey.
Nothing wrong with the center CR-just that it must match your violin posture, bow hold, and anatomy (not to mention, shoulder rests, in many cases). When I tried the centered CR, I was another player-it wasn't the CR's fault that ultimately it didn't work for me long term.
I can't see myself without a Teka-like chinrest, much like I am sure Ms. Mutter can't see herself without her centered chinrest... it works for those it will.
Also-as was suggested above-it's good to experiment with some of the more obscure options which are not one extreme or the other. I am 100% sure that by now there must be "ideal" chinrests for every player out there.
I wrote a reply about Anne Sophie Mutter's Flesch chinrest here: http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=15573
Perhaps I should have posted it on this thread instead.
I need a center-mounted chin rest that's relatively flat, such as Wittner. I also use a wooden flat center-mounted chinrest, but have no idea of the brand.
I use a Guarnieri type chin-rest and no SR. In my experience side mounted chin-rests mute the sound more than centre mounted. Of course the biggest mute of all is the SR...
Cheers Carlo
I use a Berber chinrest on my violin and a Wittner chinrest on my viola. They are both mounted over the tailpiece. I use them because they are most comfortable for me given the configuration of my shoulder, neck and jaw.
I removed my side mounted chinrest and replaced it by a guarneri style by Ergovio. The change in resonances was disturbingly high! The side mounted chinrest really muted a lot!
I think about testing a Flesch style though.
Since I use the korfker SR I cannot say its really damping much anymore. I used a Diamond before, that muted quite a lot. Without SR my shoulder is also muting, I seem to be anatomically bad build for good violin sound.
If you're using a side-mounted CR I would suggest it is important to ensure that no part of the CR contacts the violin plates within the purfling, thereby not interfering with the plate vibration, which approaches zero at the purfling. I am using side-mounted CRs (as being more comfortable).
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November 6, 2005 at 02:43 AM · I use a centered tailpiece, and so do most of my students. It works, although I don't know why. Maybe someone on v.com can explain it to me.