Lesser Known Music Schools

July 27, 2005 at 05:11 AM · and why do I have to respond to this for it to show up in the forum?

Edit: nevermind...

July 28, 2005 at 04:44 AM · DON'T GO TO UNIVERSITY OF THE PACIFIC!!! I repeat, DO NOT go to UOP! If I had time I'd list the million reasons, but I'm working on my Masters thesis for a Friday deadline... Maybe another time.

July 28, 2005 at 05:49 AM · U of Toronto has a decent violin faculty. Scott St. John teaches there, along with some other people.

July 28, 2005 at 06:02 AM · Really? I'm surprised about UOP, I was pretty impressed with the assistant prof of Violin...was there one big thing that sticks in your mind?

July 28, 2005 at 09:25 PM · BU and U of Toronto both have Schools of Music-- capitalization necessary-- that cater almost exclusively to aspiring professionals. If you want a degree program that is highly focused on performance, those two are by far the best on your list. If you don't want to focus heavily on performance at the beginning, you should certainly not go to BU, and probably not Toronto either.

UC-Berkeley has a good composition and electronic music program, and I'm sure that there are many fine players there, but performance opportunities are more limited, and certainly are not significant to the university's reputation. Emory has a fine orchestra and some good instructors, but no BM program, so you would not have a community of really dedicated performers. That's not necessarily a big problem for you, but you need to be aware of it.

July 28, 2005 at 09:50 PM · cool, that's really good information.

Thanks alot.

July 28, 2005 at 10:07 PM · Hey I think the only two universities in this country which have good music programs are USC and Indiana University. The rest for the most part I think are really not competitive enough. If you want to be a professional musician go to those schools or a conservatory.

July 28, 2005 at 10:28 PM · Wait, University of Southern California? The famous college for Science and Engineering?

Or...do you mean University of South Carolina? The initials aren't enough in this case :D

July 29, 2005 at 01:15 AM · Nate I think Yale is fairly good, but for the most part you're right.

In Canada, for strings go to McGill or UofT.

July 29, 2005 at 04:11 AM · The University of Minnesota and the University of Michigan are known for having very good music programs and many people claim they are basically like conservatories in terms of prepreation and focus. It is nearly impossible to get into the UofM's Music Prgram as a Freshmen unless you are super spectacular.

July 29, 2005 at 05:06 PM · Nate, I don't think that's a very fair assessment considering the huge output of successful players from Rice, BU, Cincinnati, Michigan, and Northwestern. You should give credit at least to those five. Also Oberlin, if you count liberal arts colleges, and I think Bard will shortly be on the list.

July 29, 2005 at 05:58 PM · Nate, how many do you really know much about? I went to a school with a tremendously successful jazz ed program, maybe the best in the world, which also turned out some very successful strings players. So, my question is: what are you basing this assessment on?

July 29, 2005 at 07:16 PM · Jude,

I do think it is a very fair assessment. A few schools you mentioned I should have pointed out do have fine teachers but for the most part (there are always exceptions) the level of students are not nearly as good as at USC, Indiana University, or a conservatory. That's just a fact. Those two schools have probably the best two faculties out of any university in this country.

Mike,

I'm glad you found a nice jazz ed school to attend. I am basing my assessments holistically on the amount of successful graduates I have seen that are doing things professionally from USC or Indiana. In some ways those two universities are better than lots of conservatories.

July 29, 2005 at 07:37 PM · There is also Eastman(University of Rochester), and Peabody(John Hopkins University)both have great faculty. But for the most part conservatories are the best bet, if you are very serious about pursuing music as a career.

July 29, 2005 at 08:07 PM · Hey Mike, did you go to North Texas?

McGill has a really good jazz program and I'm told by all of them that North Texas is the best jazz there is.

July 29, 2005 at 08:09 PM · I have to agree with Nate. Even though it sounds like snobbery, universities for the most part want their students to be too academically involved (for most violinist's tastes).

With the exception of Serovcek, there haven't been many big name violinists who liked to spend time in actual school.

Also, faculty is important, but unfortunately the business has a lot to do with competition, and the more you surround yourself with all stars, the more the chance that you become one yourself.

July 30, 2005 at 12:31 AM ·

July 30, 2005 at 12:56 AM · what a reply...

July 29, 2005 at 11:33 PM · Pieter, yes, back in the 70's and 80's when it was North Texas State. Robert Ottman, author of the most used college theory text at the time, was head of theory and after retirement he was replaced by Gene Cho, both brilliant men who were highly recognized in their field. The orchestra director, Anshel Brusilow, is an excellent conductor who had been concertmaster of the Philadelphia Orch. under Ormandy. The concertmaster of the school orchestra went on to the National Symphony and became asst. concertmaster there. Tim Jenkins, a tenor I knew, was picked up by the Met...so I take issuet with people with limited knowledge making sweeping generalities about schools they know nothing of. I'm sure there are a lot of good universities with good music programs which go unnoticed.

July 30, 2005 at 01:38 AM · What's wrong with being academically involved, too? Look at some of the greatest violinist currently out there, a lot of them double majored at one point or another while they attended Juilliard, and got degrees in foreign literature and such at Columbia University and Harvard. I know others who went to Princeton and Penn.

I think it's irrelevent to say "too academically involved." Everywhere you go these days and anything you come in contact with in life may involve math, science, english, or history.

You know, as a violinist there could be all-time lows, and having a trade or degree in something other than music could help ends meet and make it easier to fall back on something.

Basically, what is a performance degree? A piece of paper that says you can play the violin?! I think this brings up the topic of what more does a performance degree than a music education degree... it's the same thing, except you're more qualified in the same field basically.

July 30, 2005 at 02:04 AM · Ryan, you are preaching to the choir. I am going to a university, not a conservatory.

But get real... many great musicians don't go to real college. Some do, but a lot don't. Of course they are highly educated in their fields, lots of history, theory etc...

I believe in a well rounded education, but you will NOT get that in a place where kids are scrambling for 4.0 gpas to get into law school. If youre in performance, you need the competition.

July 30, 2005 at 02:54 AM · umm.... how about University of MD (Guarneri quartet), Catholic University, Temple University, or the SUNYs?

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter WHERE you go to school, but how well you play. I know a guy who went to school at Miami and plays in 4 pro orchestras and lives pretty comfortably (and he is getting his masters in the meantime). The bottom line is that being a good player is much more important than where you go to school.

July 30, 2005 at 03:21 AM · O you mean like Arnold Steinhardt (violin 1), Peter Wiley (cellist) and Michael Tree (viola) who went to Curtis, and John Dalley (violin 2) who went to Oberlin?

I know you don't have to go anywhere in particular to be a tremendous player, but statistics would show that most of the time, great players come from a certain types of places.

That is what Nate is saying, and I agree with him.

July 30, 2005 at 12:44 PM · hi joseph,

i can tell you a bit about university of toronto since i go there. we have some of canada's best [non-retired] teachers (in my humble opinion) including annalee patipatanakoon of the gryphon trio, scott st.john, erika raum (ut alumna), and mayumi seiler. tafelmusik is the resident ensemble, and the st.lawrence string quartet (the two violinists are ut alumni) comes about twice a year to do intensive chamber music coaching sessions...

it's a great place to be if you're really focused. you can get a lot out of it if you want to, or you can just coast by.

also, canadian schools are a lot cheaper, and the drinking age is a bit lower than the states~

July 30, 2005 at 08:09 PM · Pardon me then for crossing the line with you...

All I'm saying is that USC and Indiana aren't the only two decent universities out there that have better results. There's not one statistic out there that could prove that over Boston, Rice, Northwestern, etc.

There are universities out there with the competition as much as a conservatory would.

July 30, 2005 at 09:10 PM · No one crossed any line, that post was in reference to the one talking about the Guarneri being in residence at MD...

July 30, 2005 at 09:47 PM · I will have to agree with Nate. If you want to be the best violinist you can be, go to a conservatory. You need to be in a exclusively musical atmosphere , not hampered by academics or (college partying for that matter). I am in high school right now, and I can't even imagine keeping up with the Univeristy demands, and still trying to be a great violinist, maybe others are great at balancing, but I know I hate being the jack of all trades-master of none. Apart from some of the universities mentioned above that have great music programs, and faculty, others just don't measure up to the competition.

July 30, 2005 at 10:07 PM · Look at university music program curricula. They're really barely more academically oriented than conservatories. 6-10 semesters over the course of 4 years isn't a whole lot, really, and the fact that those courses are more demanding than the parallel courses at a conservatory only means that they might actually be worth your time...

On the other hand, I think Nate and Peter have a point. If we're talking about the very highest level of playing, people winning big competitions, starting solo careers, joining high-profile chamber groups, winning major orchestra jobs in their early twenties, Indiana and USC definitely have the most. Some studios at other univ. programs, ie Vamos, Sassmanhaus, are like that, but by and large, the student bodies at those schools will play at a slightly lower level. Slightly. However, schools like Rice, CCM, Boston, Mich, etc are still full of good players headed for great careers. They're just not celebrity-magnet schools. They're certainly as prestigious and competitive as a number of conservatories, but do not have the prestige oomph of a Juilliard, Curtis, CIM, NEC, or IU. For most young players, I would submit, the competition at any of the univ. programs listed above would be quite stimulating. However, it is true that certain kinds of excellent players will always be found in certain studios at certain schools, with a degree of consistency that most others can't match.

July 31, 2005 at 03:38 AM · Pieter,

Think about this. Do the "best" schools turn out the greatest players because they are really the best schools or because they only accept players that are already of a really high caliber?

Also, there is virtually no chance of becoming a famous violinist, or even a violinist in a top orchestra. Even if you go to Juilliard or Curtis. But there is a chance (and a decent one, at that) of getting into a mid-level or regional orchestra (or several), and gigging frequently, and teaching privately, and making a good living if you play well. Ultimately, I am saying, playing well is all that matters, regardless of where you go to school.

I really should realize that getting into these kinds of discussions with you people are ridiculous. The obsession with the "best" schools is about as beneficial to everyone as what the "best" strings are, or the "best" shoulder rest, or the "best" violinist.

July 31, 2005 at 04:42 AM · nono, that's not what I was asking for O.o

I plan to major in Physics, but I do either want to dual major or minor in music. I'm not after the "Best" music school, just a good one where I can continue my music education and can at the same time get my academic degree.

July 31, 2005 at 12:50 PM · hi joseph,

i'm pretty sure you can't do a double major in music at the university of toronto, but you can audition for the orchestra, and take many of the music courses. hope that was more along what you were looking for~

July 31, 2005 at 02:23 PM · I totally agree with Tommy

July 31, 2005 at 04:04 PM · Check out The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC.

July 31, 2005 at 06:13 PM · Joseph, look in to Vanderbilt. Its Blair School of Music would certainly permit you to play in good ensembles even as a non-major, but the ensembles are good and the faculty excellent. The physics department is quite good.

You might also check out Princeton, which has one of the top physics departments anywhere and a very fine student orchestra, but no music school and thus no performance majors to compete against.

July 31, 2005 at 06:25 PM · If you like the idea of a small, liberal arts program, Williams College has quite a good music department. The professors are highly involved with the students and there are performance and conducting opportunities galore -- even if you're not a music major, which is something you won't find at other schools. In fact, you don't even declare your major until the end of sophomore year.

When I was there some years ago, there were eight music majors in my class, up from two the class before. The class after mine had about fifteen. Small classes -- in our senior year, we had a seminar for the semester that was two students and one professor. Serious individual attention!

It's also the winter home of the Berkshire Symphony (which summers at Tanglewood), giving students the opportunity to play in a major regional orchestra. It's currently conducted by one of the conductors of the Boston Pops (in his copious spare time, I'm sure). There are artists-in-residence that teach and perform both traditional and contemporary works; students are given solo performance and compositional opportunities just for the asking.

There are vocal, woodwind, string, percussion, and mixed ensembles in all styles from Elizabethan madrigals to african drumming to popular acappella , gospel, chamber music and orchestral. Students, majors and non-majors alike, are encouraged to join and found new performance groups. Williams also has the Mucho Macho Moo-cow Marching Band, the champion marching band of its class (small, highly original, and with interesting narratives -- oh, yeah, and there's no competition... ;)).

And really, how can you argue with a school whose mascot is the Purple Cow?

July 31, 2005 at 10:09 PM · Jude,

it's not that I'm doubting that "Indiana and USC have the most..'" I'm just wondering where you guys are getting this information. Please amplify. Also, since Indiana is the largest music school in the country (and I have no doubt it is a good one) I would expect it to have many graduates teaching, performing, etc. I'm just wondering if you guys have some stats on where the players in union orchestras, teaching at major schools and conservatories, etc. studied. USC and IU would not have been high on my list, but I would be guessing, so...anyway, please tell me where you get you info. Thanks!

July 31, 2005 at 11:25 PM · I hate to get into the middle of this, but here's a link to the CSO.

http://www.cso.org/main.taf?erube_fh=cso&cso.submit.viewSection=1&cso.sectionid=violin

The bios on this site should help some. They're mostly big time school graduates from what I read. Of course I didn't read them all.

It seems there's not so much of a disagreement as there is a miscommunication going on here. It's a numbers game. USC and Indiana and the conservatories will yield better professional results simply because they have higher numbers of exceptional players. As a result, the chamber music, competition, and orchestral playing will be superior at these schools. It's hard to deny that.

I don't think anyone here is saying you have to go to these schools or a major conservatory to be a great player. It's just that most great players flock to these schools.

August 1, 2005 at 12:39 AM · Mike, I think a lot of the arguments here are the result of differing ways of thinking about what constitutes a "good player" and "competitive environment." I don't think it's unfair to say that, based on his comments and on the recordings of his playing that he posted at one point, Nate is accustomed to a higher standard of playing than I am.

There is clearly no way to substantiate these claims. Walk around practice areas at a few schools and listen. Go to festivals and ask around. Sure, we all have limited experience, but it doesn't take much to know that there are both great and not-so-good players at any school, and that some schools have more hotshot players than others. How could USC and IU fail to turn out generations of stellar players with Heifetz followed by Lipsett, or Gingold followed by Fried? But with 1600 music students, how could IU fail to have plenty of less amazing players as well?

August 1, 2005 at 10:15 AM · Hi. I've heard great things about UMD and I know that professors from Curtis teach at Temple, so they're always a good bet.

Personally, I study at UDel and the violin professor is amazing but I never would've known had I not come here. The strings program is small but growing; recently got a great cello professor and part-time bass faculty, who graduated from Curtis.

Gao's a great teacher; some of the students here got accepted into conservatories but came to UDel specifically to study with him. We had a grad student that just got her Masters in performance, I think, that came here with a Bachelor's from Eastman. Other students have come from conservatories but then transferred.

Also, since the strings program is small but growing, the music department is offering nice scholarships. The orchestra has been developing nicely and even though it's a small program, we get plenty of specific attention which is very helpful.

End shameless plug. :P

August 1, 2005 at 07:45 PM · I was responding to the following:

Hey I think the only two universities in this country which have good music programs are USC and Indiana University. The rest for the most part I think are really not competitive enough. If you want to be a professional musician go to those schools or a conservatory.

I'm saying that if you've got it in you, there are many places you can go and be successful besides USC, Indiana, and the conservatories. A competetive environment can work both ways,

and it's hardly the highest criterion on my list of things to look for in a music school. Personally, I've run into few graduates of IU or USC, but I'm not in California or the mid-west. I've known too many successful, happy musicians from other schools all over the country to let a statement like that go unchallenged.

August 1, 2005 at 10:05 PM · I absolutely agree with you.

August 1, 2005 at 10:10 PM · I don't think people give enough credit to Indiana, it's honeslty one of the best schools in the country, it isn't recognized enough. The only other school I know about that you mentioned is University of Puget Sound. I'd say, don't go there. They have good teachers and alright program, but the teachers are awesome for high school students not so much for college students. If you wanted to go somewhere in Washington state which is where UPS is, I'd reccomend central washington university or Pacific Lutheran, although the former more than the latter.

August 1, 2005 at 11:31 PM · Or U of Washington, of course.

August 2, 2005 at 01:39 AM · I second Temple. They have very good academics, and it's fairly easy to get in. The School of Music is awesome for both majors and non-majors. They kind of have a split faculty for that purpose. If you have decent academics, you'll surely get a decent academic scholarship without a doubt.

August 2, 2005 at 05:16 PM · Well, about the University of Washington, no mean to be offensive to anyone that may go there, but their music program sucks. Central, PlU, and Western have way bette music programs. The one at UW seriously lacks and my violin teacher has actually told me she won't let me eventry out there. Not a good choice in my opinion...

August 2, 2005 at 05:47 PM · Annie, in major U.S. orchestras IU people outnumber people from all other schools and conservatories combined by a margin of about 3 to 1 :)

August 2, 2005 at 08:22 PM · Jim,

that's an amazing stat--can you tell me where I could find that? I checked that CSO site, and one of the players was from IU. Not many of the players had bios listed.

August 2, 2005 at 09:34 PM · Mike, the stat is actually approximately true :)

I once had a link to the rosters of a couple of dozen or so orchestras, along with where they went to school. I didn't count them, but a glance told me maybe half the players had IU listed, at least counting only American schools.

I've tried to dig up the link in the past, but it doesn't seem to google. It might have been the musican's union, or some association of orchestras. I wish somebody would find it. It surprised me too, even though I had noticed a very large proportion of the people I encountered in my measly and short experience were from there.

August 3, 2005 at 04:33 AM · Annie, I know very little about UW's violin program, but I can say with certainty that there is an excellent piano teacher and a good composition department. There's no sense in slamming the whole program just because the violin teacher isn't so great.

August 4, 2005 at 05:04 AM · Hey, can I ask what UMD is, Which Indiana University you guys mean, and which USC you guys mean. Sorry, but I'm getting kinda confused @.@

August 4, 2005 at 05:04 AM · IU is so amazing, I was going to almost for sure study there if I got in but I probably won't now...I want to go to Vienna plus I can't afford it.

I wasn't meaning to slam the whole music department. I am referring only to the violin department. Sorry for not making that clear.

August 4, 2005 at 11:37 AM · "I think this brings up the topic of what more does a performance degree than a music education degree... it's the same thing, except you're more qualified in the same field basically."

Oh Ryan, not necessarily......

Also, isn't UMD University of Maryland. They are excellent. So it University of Texas at Austin (if you can stand to live in Texas, that is).

August 4, 2005 at 02:55 PM · The big problem with IU is money. They spread their scholarship money very thin, and have little need-based aid available. Although on paper, IU costs $15000 less per year than BU, I'm going to BU for 15000 less per year than I would have had to pay at IU. That said, it's an incredible school.

Joseph, Indiana University by itself always means IU-Bloomington, their flagship campus and the one with the major music school, just like UNC by itself means UNC-Chapel Hill. USC among musicians will almost always be U of Southern California, unless the musicians in question come from South Carolina!

August 4, 2005 at 06:54 PM · Dana, Austin is an oasis in the desert which is the Texas-Lousiana-Oklahoma-Arkansas sector of the country. Often called the "live music capital of the world," it's a haven for club musicians looking for venues and sympathetic ears. There are lots of good restaurants, parks, etc. UT does have a good music school (UNT up in Denton is sometimes rated higher), but the local symphony cannot compare to those in Houston or Dallas, which, while not quite up to Chicago or Boston standards, are pretty darned good. I think the UT symphony is a fine student group. I've lived in Austin most of the last 35 years and am hard pressed to find a place I like better. The worsening traffic situation may eventually force me out.

August 4, 2005 at 07:49 PM · UMD = University of Maryland College Park

August 5, 2005 at 07:19 PM · The University of Oklahoma has a really good string program. It's not too difficult to get in and the level of the students has been rising over the past few years. There's not a lot of competition, mostly due to the fact that all of the string players get along so well, but the teachers all have very high standards for their students.

August 8, 2005 at 04:14 AM · In response to the question about Washington State music schools-- my opinion is that the University of Washington actually has a far better strings program than Central Washington (or Western. please.) Central often appears as a -transition school- where students have every intention of transferring to a conservatory in a year or two. However, this rarely happens. UPS and PLU are both very nice schools, but also very small with really only one or two string teachers at each.

August 8, 2005 at 10:25 PM · Unto each his/her own.

August 9, 2005 at 11:23 PM · I know several quite fine violinists that go to BU. Ithaca College is supposed to be good, especially in music education, but I've known several musicians from there. Yale is good, but it's only for graduate studies, at least if you want to get some sort of a performing diploma. University of Washington, U of Maryland, and Kent State (in Ohio) all have good music programs.

August 11, 2005 at 01:19 AM · I've seen a couple masterclasses given by a violin teacher at the University of Oklahoma, Felicia Moye.

I thought she was quite good, but I don't know anything about the rest of their program. However, I do know that Northern Illinois University includes Shmuel Ashkenasi and Mathias Tacke among it's violin professors. They are both violinists of the Vermeer quartet and Ashkenasi has a tremendous reputation as a soloist. That school may be worth taking a look at.

August 11, 2005 at 02:44 AM · I'll second the statement that Moye's masterclasses are great.

August 11, 2005 at 05:09 PM · Joseph, I'm finally back to expand on my statements about UOP.

Positive first: There are some excellent professors--and as with any school, some that aren't. I don't know about the current violin teacher. I was there a few years ago and enjoyed my teacher *very* much... she was the second of the four teachers they had in four years. I lucked out! (The teacher I transferred there to study with left over the summer before I got there and no one told me!). There's a strong emphasis on chamber music, but it's "luck of the draw" as to whether or not you are placed in an ideal group. The campus is gorgeous (however, they spend more money on the roses than the students...).

A peek at the negative: The administration is a nightmare, both the school and the conservatory. I've attended four other universities of widely varying sizes, state and private, and there is no comparison to the administrative, organizational mess! The facilities--several small, seperate buildings--aren't great. Unless they've built something new in the last 3 years... The little recital hall is nice. The limited practice rooms aren't, and they have no AC. I couldn't use any of them anyway... none are wheelchair accessible, and they weren't all that concerned about finding me an alternative. (In fact, I ended up filing a legal complaint with the Department of Justice because of the habitual refusal to accommodate disabilities and the general indifference towards those with disabilities in many aspects and in all areas.)

Orchestra was a VERY negative experience. It was the conductor's first year and I was concertmaster. He's a pretty nice (especially OUTSIDE rehearsals), smart (intense!) guy, but... it was miserable. When I was there--three years ago--the strings were QUITE EXTREMELY VERY weak, and very few in number; I was the only violin major (another violinist was composition, though), and there were two or three cello majors and a whole lot of basses. Hopefully things have improved a bit in that respect... The general feeling among the students was rather negative. Not a whole lot were happy with their decision to attend, except for the appreciation of the mostly well-liked teachers. Many percieved it as a school for students who "needed to become better players and artists," not those who were already skilled, musical players.

The strangest thing: NOTHING happens on time. Even classes! EVERYTHING happens at least 15 minutes later than scheduled, I think usually because *everyone* is *so* overextended and stressed out (even the professors). Don't expect to have any phone message or email answered, even those left repeatedly over many days, especially if trying to contact the administration/office types. (And the office is not accessible, so if you can't walk up several flights of stairs to get there in person... okay, so maybe that's not such a common concern! *laugh*) A HUGE proportion of students join fraternities/sororities. Campus can get pretty wild, and very loud and crazy at night. I guess if you're into the party scene that could be a plus. And finally, there is not much in Stockton. Allegedly a lot of crime though...(?)

This is just my feedback and personal experience of course, maybe someone else would love it, but I would never recommend UOP. (I'm not too worried about writing this here, because they know how I feel!)

'Erie (-:

P.S. I have LOVED getting my masters at University of South Florida (USF, Tampa). The level of playing is pretty high, the violin studio is very close, and everyone adores our amazing, helpful, generous teacher--as well as the other string faculty members, and the faculty in general. Next stop, BU. :-)

August 13, 2005 at 07:32 PM · Obviously there are a plethora of fine music schools out there in US universities. New School University should be added to that list.

The greatest challenge is finding one that best suits your own specific desires/needs regarding location, finances, expectations, teacher choice etc.

To say that there are only two Universities in the States that have decent music programs is entirely laughable. I've been accepted into IU-Bloomington twice with scholarship both times and I turned them down both times. I also transferred OUT of New School University (Mannes College of Music) Why? Not because they were bad schools of music and certainly not because I felt they were too good for me, simply because they didn't seem to fit.

The reason some universities seem to pump out more successful musicians is because of one or both of these points: 1. The school is bigger. 2. They are able to suit the needs of a greater variety and therefore greater number of people.

My advice, find the university that fits YOUR needs and it will be a successful venture.

Preston

October 9, 2005 at 09:51 PM · no one ever mentions the Hartt school of music in Hartford University