What is YOUR personal vibrato story?

June 27, 2015 at 04:14 PM · I am struggling to learn vibrato. I have none at all. I am wondering about the variety of ways in which vibrato develops in violinists. What is your vibrato story? How did you learn vibrato? What types of exercises did you use? How often did you practice vibrato specifically before you learned it? Did you have a vibrato breakthrough where everything just clicked and all of a sudden you had a basic vibrato? Or did it develop gradually and imperceptibly over a long period of time? Did you start with a lot of hand tension and then gradually learn to relax as a part of your vibrato development? Or did you learn to relax and then experience a sudden improvement in your vibrato? How hard did you work on it? How frustrated we're you while learning? We're you worried you would never learn it?


June 27, 2015 at 04:57 PM · I learned vibrato at the end of my first year playing in 6th grade (I'm a junior now). Our teacher decided we needed to learn as soon as possible, so she gave us this exercise to do. You do the motion slow with a metronome, then you go twice as fast. I recommend starting at 60 - 70 bpm. This helped a lot of us when we were learning.

June 27, 2015 at 05:04 PM · Oh dear!

It is difficult to "untie" a tight vibrato motion. I star with a loose, floppy motion,(when no-one is around!) and re-introduce only just enough tension to keep it "centred'.

June 27, 2015 at 05:24 PM · I was very eager to learn how to do vibrato as soon as I discovered Ashokan Farewell. It's not the hardest piece to play but a lot of vibrato. You can play the entire piece in the first position.

Here's a video of Taylor Davis playing:


first step for me was to play it extremely slowly and try to wiggle my wrist each note. Eventually my wrist unlocked quite a bit.

Basically I learned to hold down the finger on the string and move the whole wrist towards the bridge and push it back. DO NOT let go of the string while doing this. It's only your fingertip wiggling, not actually moving up and down.

I was frustrated because it took me a very long time to do it well and long enough to be noticeable for me while the mute is on. Also, I still do have issues doing it with my pinky mostly because it was broken and it always clicks everytime I flex it. I learned to quickly get to third position to avoid this, now I'm trying to loosen my pinky and hand a bit better because I started taking lessons and my teach corrected my left hand position

June 27, 2015 at 06:06 PM · >I was very eager to learn how to do vibrato as soon as I discovered Ashokan Farewell. It's not the hardest piece to play but a lot of vibrato. You can play the entire piece in the first position.

I had exactly the same feeling! Ashokan Farewell is more bland w/o vibrato and I couldn't wait to make my rendition sound like the ones I'd heard.

But I have to say, it took a long time before my teacher even allowed me to start up on vibrato, and I better understand why, now. It's sort of unglamorous to focus on just good intonation, but it's crucial. Vibrato with bad intonation really sets a player on a sloppy path. I think I waited longer than any other adult beginner I know (yikes, it might have been 5 years), but then again, I followed an extremely modest trajectory for learning everything, with modest goals (like you, my goal as an adult beginner has always been to just be capable of playing something pretty with some decent vibrato).

So, it may be slow going for you b/c maybe you're still rather new at the game and you're clutching the fingerboard still. Time will make that hand more relaxed. (And now I'm remembering that she wanted to wait until I was working in 3rd position with some confidence, after having spent a lot of time in 1st position, learning all the key signatures.)

I'm otherwise in agreement with everything the other posters said.

June 27, 2015 at 06:41 PM · My personal vibrato story is so personal that I can't really disclose it.

It just happened one day when I had nothing better to do.

But now I am paying the price.

June 27, 2015 at 06:47 PM · At first, I didn't like vibrato, because I couldn't do it! I can't remember how I "found" it, sorry. Certainly not by supporting the viola on the base of my index, just the thumb.

I teach an "underwater plant" wave motion involving the whole arm, hand, and fingers, using the same motions as shifting, but gradually "homing in" on the desired note.

June 27, 2015 at 09:05 PM · Honestly, I have no memory of learning vibrato, which is odd because I wasn't one of those kids who was playing violin at three. I was probably twelve when I learned vibrato, and I still don't remember how I did. There are certainly methods of teaching it (I like the one explained by Kurt Sassmanshaus on violinmasterclass.com), but honestly I've found the most effective way to learn vibrato is to be around other people doing it on a regular basis. Kids usually really pick up vibrato when they get to a good youth orchestra and see other kids doing it.

June 27, 2015 at 09:23 PM · Vibrato? It's a lifetime saga for me. When I was a schoolgirl, one of the pupils was trying vibrato on her own, and our teacher encouraged us to try. I thought I'd got it, but he told me I was wrong - 'just moving the skin on your finger tips!' I was so discouraged that I gave up trying. Then a couple of years later, I gave up the violin.

Fast forward to age thirty (now half a lifetime ago)! I got interested in folk fiddle and took lessons specifically for that end for a few months. But I had the feeling that I'd like to do vibrato & my teacher encouraged me to do the 'sliding shifts and then stop in one place'. But a new job beckoned, so I didn't get very far.

I'm in my sixties now & have been fiddling for three years. The repertoire that I like and play doesn't need vibrato - I like early music, baroque and folk music. But still I really would like to be able to do vibrato. When I took my grade 3 last year, my exam teacher said I'd need vibrato for grade 5 and why not start practising it now. I'm trying for an arm vibrato, wobbling from the elbow, as it seems to fit my physique best, and it's not the sort of vibrato that I failed on before!

I try 2 scales, double octave A and double octave B flat. First of all I tried vibrating with the fiddle neck held against the wall, but now I try it without any anchoring, but looking in a mirror. Recently I've had some neck trouble and wasn't able to hold the violin as firmly with my chin - and the vibrato suddenly improved.

But - I still can't put it into practice in tunes very well. If I do, my wrist seems to adopt a side-to-side motion that I know could become a bad habit, though it doesn't sound too bad.

So I'm still struggling.

I have read a few people who've said that vibrato suddenly arrived.

Oh how I wish that would happen to me!

By the way, I must have read twenty threads on vibrato here and there, and watched twenty demos on YouTube. The subject has a morbid fascination for me. So thanks for starting this thread - hope I get some helpful tips!

June 27, 2015 at 09:34 PM · I think some students can start right from the beginning to do a pleasing sounding vibrato and others will struggle with the basic movement for a while as I had to. Even after learning it a long ti ago it is still a skill that ned honing.

I was taught to start vibrato in third position with my first finger on the note A in the third position on the E string. This did put my left hand in a more easier position to start wobbling back and forth. It is natural to feel frustration in learning this movement especially if you think you are going to sound like Isaac Stern or Itzhak Perlman right from the start. Just stick with your practice and it will slowly start happening for you.

June 28, 2015 at 08:26 AM · I'd been avoiding it for 5 years, when finally my teacher had had enough!

She started me by watching her, then replicating that movement and watching in the mirror, no bow.

Fast forward 12 months (seriously), and I could finally do that movement with the bow in music.

That was about five years ago, and I reckon its only during the past two years I have gradually been able to vary the rate of my vibrato. I find that very difficult. I find it relatively easy though to use all fingers including pinkie.

I can't for the life of me figure out a more arm-centric movement.

June 28, 2015 at 09:56 AM · What is vibrato? Is it like when them singers warble?

June 28, 2015 at 12:51 PM · Where is that guy who claimed to be able to teach anyone vibrato in 15 minutes (but he declined say how)? Maybe he could be convinced to divulge his secret.

June 28, 2015 at 03:10 PM · 15 minutes?

To get the trick, yes; to integrate it into one's playing, no. "We'll do the impossible straight away, but miracles take a few days!"

Here is a discussion on vibrato types:


Here's how I get it going:

To start with, I teach a forearm movement, but with a flexible wrist and fingers: the elbow leads the wrist which leads the knuckles which lead the fingertips. Visually, the effect is rather like an underwater plant, waving to and fro in a gentle current. As the motion speeds up, the hand vibrates a little more than the forearm, but something is still happening in the elbow. The fingers stay slightly passive, but tonic enough not to slip.

I'll try to describe briefly what I do:

- Pressure Zero. One finger on each string; minimal or no contact between the base of the index and the neck; no pressure; a gentle back & forth shifting/sliding motion.

- Pressure No1. Slight finger pressue with equally slight thumb counter-pressure; the strings descend halfway to the fingerboard. .

- Pressure No2, a little more pressure; the strings arrive on the fingerboard, the fingertips drag more on the strings; as the forearm approaches, the hand leans back and the finger curl; as the forearm recedes, the hand leans forewards and the fingers stretch.

- Pressure No 3, only just enough to stop the fingertips sliding; the complex motions of Pressure No2 have become a combined arm & hand vibrato, with equal pressure from all 4 flexible fingers.

Excess tension, e.g. from the middle finger, or from the thumb, will block the wrist and stiffen the whole process.

Oh, and don't use the bow until you're ready!

It usually works!

Hope this is comprehensible...

June 29, 2015 at 08:50 AM · Vibrato can be a dodgy way to cover up bad intonation, wrong notes and whatever. Seriously, we have all probably been there, and I know I have. That is why I put vibrato on the back burner a lot now, and try and get the intonation and the sound right. Along with better phrasing andf bow control as well. Maybe I will succeed before I'm aged 101.

June 29, 2015 at 10:29 AM · I started with vibrato about 6 months into learning to play. My teacher pointed to my piece of the week and said, try this with vibrato. She demonstrated how it was done, and gave me a couple of exercises to practice on. She has a gorgeous, rich vibrato that I tried to imitate. She assured me that she wasn't born with it, and that it took her quite a bit of work. So I hit the practice room with a metronome and some insipid student level andante thing, the likes of which everybody has to wade through. I arrived at a reasonably nice, even vibrato, albeit, as of yet, inconsistently applied. I still do those same exercises everyday after my scale work (which teacher forbids vibrato on) in the hopes that one day I'll achieve her beautiful, luscious one.

June 29, 2015 at 11:18 AM · I was 13 and had already been playing violin for 9 years when I decided I need vibrato. I was taught to practice an "arm vibrato," in 1st position by sliding on one finger down and up (perhaps a full half or full tone and gradually reducing the span and increasing the speed of vibration). I was told to do this without bowing a note (to avoid frustration) and do this perhaps for a full week or two, before even laying a bow on the strings while practicing vibrato. The whole process took me about a month, but by the end of that time I had developed a useful vibrato that served me well for the next 43 years, when I suffered damage to 3 cervical disks that partially parallized my left arm and made it impossible to play violin at all for a full year.

Although I resumed violin playing again after that, at age 56, I was never able to regain my arm vibrato and worked on developing a wrist vibrato (never as successful as I would want below 3rd position). In the higher positions I use a finger vibrato that seems to work quite well. 80 years old and still playing.

Cello vibrato came instantly early in my lessons that started a couple of months before my 15th birthday. I asked my teacher how to do it (it was a lot different motion than my (by then) decent violin arm vibrato) he showed me and that was that - I still have a great cello vibrato, all over the beast.


June 29, 2015 at 12:26 PM · I had been playing for about five years when my first private teacher decided it was time to work on vibrato. She was very insistent on the mastery of arm vibrato, to the point where I thought what is known as wrist vibrato was just 'poor technique'. I had been working on what I didn't realize was a fine wrist vibrato for two years, where I had been hesitant to utilize it at all, in fear that the teacher would put me back to the old "scroll to the wall, no left thumb, make slow siren noises until you get the motion" routine.

It wasn't until I switched to a different teacher that I felt much freer in my vibrato. I'm sure it had been developing throughout the couple of years, but I was still very much self-conscious about that aspect of my playing. Imagine my delight when the new instructor, after hearing me play my piece in the first lesson, compliment me on my 'lovely wrist vibrato'! We proceeded to work on different aspects of the technique, how to adjust it to speak certain passages. I think a lot of it just came with learning different music, though! It's a very personal thing, how one comes about their own style and how their style is! (Wrist, arm, or otherwise.)

Right now I feel I'm in a very comfortable place, eg can vibrato in higher positions and with the fourth finger. I am still very much a wrist vib person, though I can emulate some arm vibrato if I feel it is better for the piece.

June 29, 2015 at 01:29 PM · I "learned" vibrato as a child from a teacher who pretty much allowed my vibrato to develop on its own. I do not remember him giving me any specific instructions on it in 12 years of lessons. I learned it by watching him demonstrate it and then trying it on my own. Unfortunately, his approach was much the same for intonation, tone, and most everything else. I basically just plowed through some method books and butchered pieces that were way too hard for me.

Then when I restarted violin at the age of ca. 45, my new teacher had to tell me to stop doing any vibrato for about three weeks, so that he could teach me afresh. That worked okay, I developed the basic wrist thing, but recently I decided I don't have as much control over the amplitude of my vibrato as I would like, so we're taking some steps back again so that we can take bigger steps forward. All of this involves specific exercises that he has given me, which are terribly dull, but I'm willing to do them for the sake of building better vibrato skill in the long run. I'm not at the point yet where I can incorporate the new approach into my playing, which is admittedly somewhat frustrating but I figure I just need to work a little harder and longer and it should come together okay.

I noticed the song "Ashokan Farewell" mentioned here. Personally I do not care for a lot of heavy vibrato on this song, but y'all can play it however you want. Also the fact that Ashokan Farewell is in mostly first position is not necessarily advantageous. My feeling is (and my teacher agrees) that vibrato in first position is harder than in third or fourth position and I think that is why a lot of teachers use pieces like "Ave Maria" (Bach-Gounod, Book 3 of Solos for Young Violinist by Barbara Barber). Three other "vibrato pieces" that I was given were the Larghetto from the Handel D Major Sonata and the Grave by Benda and the Veracini Largo, any of which may or may not actually have been written by those composers (it's pretty clear the Grave was not by Benda). These pieces are slow but they involve vibrato in the context of shifting.

June 29, 2015 at 01:41 PM · This master class with Shakeh Ghoukasian had so many great ideas for practicing vibrato. I hope it helps!

June 29, 2015 at 05:50 PM · I learned it around age 7 or 8 after playing for a few years in Suzuki. The method (for learning vibrato, that is, not The Method) was pretty bad... something with a tissue on the string to let the finger slide up and down.

In any case, I developed what would likely be called an arm vibrato that I'm always working to expand to include more flexibility in the fingers.

Simon Fischer's book "Warming Up" has a wonderful page exploring four different types of circular/arc motions that contribute to a great vibrato. By working on these motions individually (each of which changes both the pitch and the finger pressure on the string) your ear will unite them into a free vibrato that's nevertheless focused on the pitch.

June 29, 2015 at 05:50 PM · All of which is to say, I wish I'd learned that way first.

July 1, 2015 at 07:37 PM · Related question:

Since I have been getting to know the third position better,

I have been replacing all of the open string with second finger in the third position, just so I can perform vibrato(Except low G of course).

My violin rings and it is very sensitive to sympathetic string when I play the right notes (I've been told that the fingerboard needs to be planed and new bridge will be done soon). It is awful hard to even reach the D string without touching G or A when I am in the 3rd position.

On my D string, as I play A, it makes the A string to sympathetically vibrate, now this is a problem because when I perform vibrato, my finger touches the A string, not full contact but enough set my A string to harmonics. I have been adjusting my left hand position to be more careful(my fat fingers aren't helping), but this only happens to D string.

Does this suggest bridge issues or fingerboard issues? I am getting a new bridge, but I can't afford fingerboard replaning yet.

I should also mention that my D string is quite worn, I barely have any grip on that string.

July 2, 2015 at 12:17 AM · Greetings,

Nathan , warming up is pretty much all I use thes edays. The vibrato exercises are brilliant. they are actually a very sneaky way of getting peopl to develop arm vibrato if they they only use wrist and vice versa.

Actually I practice the rhythm exercises only as a pressing and release vertical action. I concluded that if the connection from the back , though the shoulder and arm was free then you don't really need to really focus on developing wrist or arm vibrato. Rather , this application and release of tension is so relaxing that one can than use either kind simply by ordering oneself to do it.

The only problem i have with this section is that afterdoing all the exercises I have absolute freedom of width and speed of vibrato and I have become addicted to playing a few lines from the slow movement of the Mendelssohn concerto focusing only on varying the vibrato on every single note. The result of this dossing around is I can't get through the whole book in thirty minutes which has long been my goal. One might say I have poor psychological impulse control but my finger impulse control is way cool......



July 2, 2015 at 07:08 AM · Steven, to answer your queries, I have to take a fractional violin so my slim fingers will seem fat!

Most of the time, my fingers will then touch a neighbouring string. But in chords, or slurred arpeggios, I have to curl them much more, and the may not even be able to press the string right down. in certain chords, my second finger actually pushes the string to the right, rather than downwards.

Swings and circles.

My "underwater plant" vibrato exercise includes a small amount of pendulum motion of the elbow. So to some extent vibrato can be initiated in the shoulder!

This does not contradict the many detailed "partial" exercises, designed to liberate the "components" of vibrato.

July 2, 2015 at 08:12 AM · Greetings,

absolutely. Its interesting that Bron comments `the majority of vibrato problems occur because of a problem in the shoulder.`

That also ties in with Sterns idea that it originates in the upper back and releases through the fingers.



July 2, 2015 at 10:25 AM · What does she mean by 'a problem in the shoulder' ?

July 2, 2015 at 11:05 AM · I'm pleased to hear that Stern agrees with me!!

I've often felt that most violin-playing motions have their source somewhere between the shoulderblades..

Menuhin, in his "Six lessons" starts with various swinging mouvements. They can help us to recover deadened sensations, but also they can be refined into our more precise motions. Hence my wave motion "homing in" on the note. With some artists I have the impression that each note emerges from a deep, rich source.

Werner Hauk's book on vibrato, (translated by Kitty Rokos) also elaborates a holistic approach, including the diaphragm.

July 2, 2015 at 05:43 PM · Greetings,

exactly. We talk about `the arm does this` and `the arm does that` but often fail to explore exactly what an arm is.....

Back in the days we were crawling around on all fours there was a cross over of four `arms` across the whole body. The inheritance of this is that the left arm actually extends diagonally across the back to about the right kidney area and vice versa.

This may not be obvious in terms of muscle and tendon connections but there is a clear connection, (of sorts). So when we psychologically cut ourselves off from the body by thinking of the arm as a unit extending from below the shoulder we are inhibiting our whole playing organism and expressive potential.



December 14, 2015 at 01:14 AM · Here's a dilemma, since switching my violin, I cannot hear my own vibrato!

I can hear it when I have a mute on, I can hear it if I record myself then hear it later on, I can hear it when I play on a much cheaper instrument which I sold to a colleague. I just cannot hear it on my own current violin.

In both my left and right ear, the whole violin to me sounds a little too dark, which is little odd because before this violin, I was always seeking for the darkest strings and bow etc. When I perform vibrato on this violin, the fluctuation in sound sounds very faint and while it gets much more obvious in other perspective apparently. Should I be looking into brighter strings from this point on? I feel as if the sound is too loud or distorted beyond my ears being able to distinguish how much fluctuation there is in my vibrato.

December 14, 2015 at 01:34 AM · Maybe. Brighter strings might help. Very interesting points about vibrato guys.

I can't remember exactly how I started vibrato. I heard of it somewhere and tried by myself. My teacher noticed and taught me the right way. The following is one exercise she taught me.

1. Shift to third position.

2. Put your first finger on A string (any other finger and string would work).

3. Then, play the note and flatten your finger, which will sound a note a semitone lower. This also forces you to pull your hand back. Repeat this motion. Eventually, you can speed it up.

I hope you get what I'm saying. It's a little hard to work, though.

December 14, 2015 at 08:47 AM · I changed my vibrato during graduate school, from one that originated through a straight-line movement, to one based on a rotational movement. That finally connected all the dots for me on the whole business of finger, wrist, and arm, vibrato.

December 14, 2015 at 04:23 PM · Ooh, very interesting.

December 18, 2015 at 09:26 AM · Steven, it sound as if your better violin has such resonance that it floods the ears, and that the vibrating wood may also dominate the string vibrations (as in a wolf tone).

I suggest lower tension strings: they will sound brighter, and be more responsive .

December 19, 2015 at 12:43 AM · Adrian, what I find is that during break-in time, when the strings are very edgy and bright, I get very definite, focused and very powerful and complex sound.

I fell in love with this violin when it had brand new set of Obligato strings on it. There is no real wolf note other than in between first C and C# on G string. The whole violin sounds very dark and loud. As I mentioned, the loudness distorts that what I can hear while playing, but I imagine if I were listening to it 10ft away, it'll be more focused and pleasant because that's what I get when I record my playing.

Under my ears, I can only hear the very complex, loud sound which is even distorted unless if I play in a complete non-acoustic room.

December 19, 2015 at 02:14 AM · does anyone else have trouble seeing the videos in this thread?


December 19, 2015 at 03:39 AM · I started learning vibrato when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old. I started taking lessons when I was 5. I heard my teacher playing with vibrato and decided to try it myself. I took lessons from the same teacher until I was 17 but I don't recall him actually teaching me anything about vibrato. I figured out that if I kept my fingernails just the right length, then I could get a tremendous "kick" on the top (pitch) end of my vibrato when my fingernail contacted the string.

Then I took 25 years off from the violin.

Then I got a new teacher who promptly realized that my vibrato was completely wrong and told me to stop using it for a couple of weeks and only do some "vibrato exercises" designed to help me understand the correct motions for a traditional wrist vibrato. He helped me rebuild my vibrato from scratch, which was a difficult process but I enjoyed it because it was challenging and it was related to the violin! Now I find that I can blend in some arm vibrato to vary speed and intensity. I still would like to improve my vibrato -- increase the depth and improve control -- but I believe at least now I have the right foundation. I still do some vibrato exercises once in a while as part of my practice routine.

December 19, 2015 at 08:45 AM · Steven, I have measured the sound output of my instrument, just near my left ear: 95 to 100dB! And for several hours a day.

I play with a specialised plug in my left ear. Or a ball of cotton-wool, which filters out the "grit".

Apart from permanent ear damage, our sense of pitch is affected by sound level, but to what extent depends on the individual.

May 7, 2016 at 12:22 AM · I'm working on my wrist vibrato. Decent progress, except for first finger on first position. I had to intentionally exhale while doing it in that position, to avoid feeling tense up.

May 7, 2016 at 01:28 AM · I'm still working on mine but I think the biggest obstacle is not just a physical one but perhaps more so a mental one. I think that as soon as your brain understands the basic feeling of a loose, relaxed vibrato swing it becomes a lot easier to work on. For me this happened holding the violin like a guitar (I think Professor V on YouTube recommends this too). The instrument's secured by your right forearm which totally frees up your left arm/hand. Set your left hand up, pick a finger and try to get a swing with only light contact of the thumb on the neck. Keep the index base knuckle far off the neck. Focus on keeping the hand relaxed and you'll succeed in allowing your 3rd joints (closest to your fingertips) to flex unhindered. This will get easier and easier as you practice.

Transitioning to regular playing position is still an obstacle but this drill will at least make the overall feeling more clear and you can then focus on specific metronome practice.

May 10, 2016 at 03:26 AM · I realized I grip with my left hand too much so although I can do a nice wrist vibrato when I set my hand/arm up properly, my struggle is learning to hold the violin all over again so I can add the vibrato smoothly to my playing.

May 10, 2016 at 03:46 AM · Emily, shifting exercise REALLY helped me to loosen the grip. Basically pick a short-simple piece, and try to play it all on one string. If it's an octave down, just play one octave up. This forced me to rapidly shift and my hand around.

Also, a week with viola helped me to loosen the grip further.

January 27, 2017 at 03:19 AM · Oh, I love this thread. What a juicy topic. Here goes...

I was always intrigued by the look of violin playing, and I always wondered, "What is it about the violin that makes your hand shake like that? What is it?"

Oh the laughs... As soon as I began learning violin, I realised that my hand wasn't shaking, and so I googled: "What makes your hand shake when you play violin?" (I'm not exaggerating. I hadn't ever heard of the word 'vibrato'.)

Thus began the journey of exploring, reading, watching and practising.

I started as early as within my second month of playing, just practising flexing the first knuckles (as seen on YouTube by Laura Staples from Red Desert Violin - a really simple and good preparation to vibrato that could be started as early as Day 1).

Around 2 months later, I began to focus on slow oscillations with the metronome. After three weeks, I got to a certain speed, and felt like I had really gotten somewhere - but I just couldn't seem to get it faster.

This was up until a week ago, when I brought this up to my teacher. She explained something that (I think) is really crucial to understanding vibrato: Vibrato isn't a motion that your fingers do (active); it's a motion that happens to your fingers when your hand is relaxed (reactive).

Ironically, it's a motion that is totally unnatural, yet has to become not only natural, but reflexive.

This helped me a lot to understand that until now, I was doing vibrato. Obviously it has to start with some active doing and practising, until you get the general motion. But now I'm working on letting my fingers react to the vibrato motion that my arm/wrist is, well, doing (for lack of a better word ;)).

It's an unfinished 'vibrato story' that I look forward to completing in ten two years from now!

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