Never trust a violin.
I recently started a thread (now closed) complaining about all the maintenance a violin might require. It seems there is frequently something that needs attention.
I can not imagine that all instruments need the same amount of TLC and maybe I should change to piano? I dragged out my old Yamaha keyboard and, indeed, I had fun!
I decided to go the piano route (need to get something real with pedals ). And maybe I could sell the violin. The violin had a bunch of different strings so I figured I would put on a new regular set for selling purposes. I chose a less popular (cheaper) brand (Pro Art).
With the Pro Arts, I NEVER heard this violin sound better !!!
IMPOSSIBLE!!
(Low tension. Dull reputation strings )
But I would not be fooled this time and figured it would all dissipate in a day or 2 with settling in.
Day 3 and I was up and playing before breakfast!
How could I ever have joined these strings and this violin by thinking about it or based on my limited violin knowledge ???
What have I learned ??
(Be kind ).
Replies (68)
I trust my violin! :)
Best of luck with the strings-seems to me you like trying new ones to see how can it possibly improve your instrument. Strictly speaking about that issue, nylon strings tend to be less tense and easier on the left hand than "modern" core strings. They also feel quite differently under the bow. In your particular case, even though I assume you've used Dominants (a $500.00 box strings should have Dominants stashed there somewhere), they are (quite probably intentionally) edgier than many other current nylon options-this by itself is not good or bad, but definitely something involving personal and instrument preference. You seem to prefer darker sounding strings, thus your sudden like of your current set.
Pirastro has two interesting options that are not as popular nowadays-nylon Synoxa, and polyester Aricore. The latter, according to other people's experiences, can sound intentionally dark, which, if you hate a "harsh" tone may also be quite up your alley. The Synoxa are an amazing set, worthy of replacing Dominants, as they have a rather bright, but rich character-very open and brilliant sounding- without the initial metallic edge some people dislike on Dominants. Very beautiful tone, without a hint of dullness (clear, not shrill). Both of these should be easy to play, and in the case of Synoxa-the ones I've tried-reasonably powerful.
(Obligatos, by nature of their "modern" core, sound pretty good, warm, and loud. I don't find them "edgeless", but they are certainly not the brightest. A possible drawback is, however, that tension is slightly higher than nylon, respond well but require a bit more bow pressure, and for some people don't last as long. I like their sound, but to me they are not "Eudoxa-like"-just warm/full sounding... not saying that something like Aricore is "better", but since you seem to like darker sounding strings, I thought this note would be relevant.)
While your D'Addarios seem to be working for both of you (instrument/player), I would nevertheless still seek to either rent or buy a good instrument you really love if you intend to keep playing and improving. It's just my humble opinion that you'll (hopefully) fiddle with the instrument way less with an instrument you love to play on (not that it's necessarily wrong to try strings, chinrests, etc.)
Ultimately, as mentioned in the other thread, violins are not as "moody" if everything is fairly OK with the instrument and/or setup. Sure, some will have higher action during the Summer, or prefer more dryness/humidity, but nothing that will be "ear-breaking" different. From your stories, I just suspect you could do much better with something better suited to your taste and current abilities-and in order to remain inspired and have an easier time advancing.
A last word-be aware that a very minimal difference in how you hold the violin can change how you hear the tone under the ear. And on this subject, sometimes a bit of edge-even "harshness"-is not bad , and many times our instrument sounds way much louder/more brash under the ear than what people are hearing.
(Indeed,listening to yourself through decent sound equipment is a fair idea.)
More-be wary of warm, nice sounding violins under the ear that may not project well. Nothing bad about a warm tone, but (generally) you don't want a dull and unclear tone, and/or a violin with a "nice" but muted sound (too hard to pull a good, projecting tone with those.)
Will always rate a well-set up violin that can be played comfortably anywhere than just a warm but hard to play on violin. Not that it has to be an "either or" situation. Work with a good shop for your next purchase/rental, and go from there.
Feel free to disagree-I mean no disrespect and hope you have fun on your musical journey, whatever your aspirations are (or end up being.)
Please do not sell that violin.
In another thread you mentioned it was made by a gunsmith without telling if it was hist first or thousandth violin.
It would be unfair to burden anyone with a suspected VSO regardless if you put new strings on it or not.
If you consider going on with violin playing get a teacher, a decent student outfit from a known source and put in the hours (easier sad than done).
Violin maintenance beside daily cleaning after play is minimum, knocking the belly and back to check open seams is free, string change every 120/200/400 hours whenever your ears tell you that they are spent, 3-6 month health check at the luthier.
Your teacher will be the best person to let you know immediately if there is a problem with the set up.
Pro-Artes are very nice strings. Dependable, nothing flashy (hello, Evah P, I'm looking at you...).
Others in the same vein you may want to try in the low tension, low cost, and nylon core category:
Corelli Crystals
Warchal Ametysts
You KNOW you don't want to give up violin!
Mathew My problem (before Pro Arte) was a nasal, sandy, sound. I had not tried low tension before. There seemed to be more popular choices.
Adalberto Great post!
Paul The violin has a little label inside to protect the innocent! Besides, I would reveal the unusual history of the violin. It sounds better than an EBay grade now with the new strings.
Seraphim I am trying not to give up the violin in favor of the piano but I must finally insist on stability to allow me to focus on the music.
Between buying, selling, strings, environment, periodic luthier services, bow issues, etc. it is not easy to make a decision without reliable principles to follow. I do pay careful attention to the valuable remarks of the many experienced members of this forum but eventually I have to live with my choices.
Never in my life have I invested in a violin anything close to the effort and expense you describe. I am still on Team Get A Well Set Up Student Violin.
Glad the new strings are helping, though.
(My violin routine consists of a new set of strings a few times a year and maybe a checkup once a year.)
I used the Pro Artes strings for many years but I found their prices were getting a bit high for a so called 'cheap' string so now I use Tonicas. They are also worth trying.
I am not sure what you mean by constant maintenance ? When I bought my violin from China on ebay I sent it to a Luthier who did the usual set up and also fitted it with Wittner geared pegs at my request. There has never been any problems with the violin despite having travelled with me to China (very cold) and back three times. When in Australia it is subjected to the extreme tropical weather where I live.
The violin sounds as good now as it ever did. Yes, it does sound good ! Both my teacher and the luthier who set it up have commented on how good it is.
Yeah, it really shouldn't be this difficult, and usually isn't. I also have never put so much energy and thought into violin maintenance, although I'm definitely on the easy-going side of the scale about it. My personal opinion is that practice is a much more useful investment of time than constant fussing over the set-up, but of course I've also been fortunate enough to always have a good instrument for where I was at the time.
Still, if the instrument is playable, it shouldn't need any more than daily tuning, string changes at maybe twice a year for the amount of playing you probably do, and a check-up no more than once a year unless there's buzzing or rattling. Many people enjoy going down the rabbit hole of which strings, which chin rest, which shoulder rest, which rosin, and so forth. I don't--I have little patience for it and mostly prefer to just play the darn thing, but lots of people find it fun to tweak those details. So if you like doing it, then go for it, but it really shouldn't mean the difference between playing and quitting.
First, I have a question for all responders. How much did your violin cost? Less than $1500? $1500 - 5000? More than $5000?
Apples vs. oranges question.
Brian I've seen Tonica more in the last few years but not on the violin of this post.
Sarah I too am growing more impatient. I have actually reached a "next level" in the last year so I expect more from everything.
THE RABBIT HOLE ---- I think that a larger percentage than we know are unhappy and stuck with needing the help of handy rules.
But I really haven't found any handy rules!
Good point, Sarah-
Playing around with "accessories" such as strings, chinrests etc. Can be considered part of the fun of the hobby of violin playing. I know I enjoy doing that. But if it causes stress, then don't go chasing those rainbows.
A sudden thought .........
Could the accessory hunt have become more necessary due to the invasion of the VSO?
(I suspect that everyone who coaches me has a violin worth more than my car?)
Why don't you upload some pictures of your violin? I'm curious to see what it looks like. Be sure to get a shot of the bridge, both from the top and the side.
Edited to add: yes, I do have a very nice violin because my husband is a stellar luthier. But I never had problems remotely like this even when I didn't have that violin.
But I would guess that you never bothered with a really low quality instrument ?
My inquiry is about violin stability versus price point ? Would it make sense to just be shopping for a better ($) instrument?
( I also wonder if violins mature over the years into a final more stable condition?)
I will try to post photos but my success rate with host sites is limited.
I mean, I had student rentals when I started, but no, I have never had a VSO. You might have one of those. Usually they're identifiable by sight, so that's why I'm thinking pictures might help.
Sarah
I tried to take pictures of the bridge but with a close up, the flash swamped the shot. Need to check users manual!
I'll get back but it is time for my daily Pro Art evaluation.
Any professional will have spent well over $5000 on a violin...and by "well," I mean add a zero. If you're talking about a soloist or a concertmaster, add two or three zeros. The least expensive instruments that I have seen that could be played professionally are in the $15K range, and you have to be lucky to find one that good at so low a price.
On the other hand, I have had students buy quite credible violins--certainly more than adequate for an advanced (but not pre-conservatory) high school student--in the $2K - $5K range.
I think there are plenty of professionals playing contemporary instruments in the $30k-or-under range, including soloists.
There will be a few professionals playing cheap instruments, too. (I was talking to the concertmaster of a professional symphony recently whose violin is sub-$5k.) This is generally out of financial necessity, though, not because they feel such instruments are satisfactory.
Was it John Wayne who said, "I never met a violin that was half as reliable as a horse."
Given such cost information, I can only wonder about honest remarks made on forums. I'm sure that people with expensive violins generally live in an entirely different world of music justified by talent, education, etc. And conversations at the amateur level might be confusing.
I wonder about a new violin because it would make no sense in the budget range I could afford and I could not accept less at this stage. (checkmate!)
As I mentioned before, I have played good violins in a great studio. That experience and sound is still on my mind and that was over 5 years ago. ( that was in $5000 to $7000 range)
(And I expect those violins to be VERY stable :)
Just a word. Pro Arte and Crystal (as sets) are noticeably tenser than Dominants or Larsens.
The Crystal E makes holes in my ear-drums. Soft set is better. Obligatos are somewhere in between, I think.
Many violins sound nicer, less wolfy etc with less tense strings. Aftar all, many fine old violins are strung with Dominants
Paul
It's gratifying when someone famous agrees with me.
Adrian
I had no idea that Dominants were so forgiving but don't the "softer" strings start to sacrifice projection ? (not that I need it!)
(except when the F horn shows up).
Violin stability is in no correlation to price. For upgrading from your current VSO it is sufficient to click Shar Music link in the top right corner of the screen, choose Intermediate Violins and pick one.
The reality is that I have my eye on a "cheap" violin at $1300 but it has special features:
It is endorsed by the shop owner who I know on a casual basis. Very excellent person and musician.
If I'm not happy, I can get a refund.
Good as it gets :)
Darlene,
Itzhak Perlman, Gil Shaham, and Hilary Hahn all project extremely well over an orchestra with their Dominant strings :-)
They're not wired ! I'm impressed.
I've read that Dominants go downhill with use ? In fact, I think I saw the word "metallic" for new Dominants ?
What am I to believe ?
(it must be the caliber of the VIOLINs !)
All strings go downhill with use.
Darlene,
If you can I would recommend trying as many instruments as you can. Pavel confirmed my expectation that virtually any non-VSO you would buy should at least be stable and consistent, so I wouldn't worry about that.
Douglas, I have a feeling that there aren't many strings that would project poorly on their instruments.
FWIW, I play on a $500 Yang Wei workshop violin. My teacher thoroughly endorsed the violins playability. The usual culprit in any tone anomalies is ME!
But, I'm just a third year beginner, so take it with a grain of salt.
Matthew -- it's definitely in large part the violins (hence my smiley face). Just wanted to make sure that Darlene didn't skip over Dominants for fear that they might, in and of themselves, not project well.
And yes -- all strings go downhill and generally start of a bit on the harsh side.
Darlene -- have you considered going to your local luthier and trying out some other violins, just to get a feel for what is available and how it compares to your instrument?
Dominants sound metallic for the first couple of days. If you use Dominants, you just learn to cope. (Most strings take a few days to settle in, but how pleasant they are or aren't in those first few days varies considerably.)
I think all the attention to this thread deserves a game plan:
Contunue monitoring the Pro Art string/violin behavior. So far the sound quality is OK but I'm wondering why the strings have been flat by 10-20 cents every morning ? (5 days).
Do not plan on anymore string tests beyond the Pro-Arts.
Visit the gunsmith shop and you will say "NO!!!". However, the gunsmith lives in a rural area and knows who has what fiddles for miles around. He also knows when a fiddle might be changing ownership for a host of reasons. And tucked away in his shop among the student models is a locked glass case containing 3 ancient violins which he certainly made a deal to obtain and I would love to know what is going on with that.
The last possibility would be the trial violin.
Meanwhile I will continue to try to revive my piano skills just in case.
I am trying and failing to imagine a concertmaster of a professional orchestra playing on a sub-$5K violin out of financial necessity. It must be a very, very small orchestra. Usual concertmaster salary starts at double scale and goes up from there.
Of course there are excellent sub-$30K modern violins. And I know of two professional level violins that for reasons known only to those in the business are valued at $10K - $12K--but those violins are the exception and one has to be very lucky to find such a good instrument at such a low cost.
Getting back to the OP, I would think that Shar, Southwest Strings, or any other reputable dealer could provide a well-set-up student model at the $500 - $1000 price level that would far exceed the current gunsmith VSO in playability. I would be leery of trying to trade up at the gunsmith and hoping for a better outcome--seems quite unreasonably optimistic. You wouldn't try to buy a gun from a violin dealer, would you?
I tried Larsen strings once, very metallic sounding (like playing inside a coffee can) but it went away after a few days and then they sounded great, I still use the Larsen E string. I dont get that metallic character with Evahs, but I don't think that should be a deciding factor, because its temporary.
I have a pretty good violin, it sounds wonderful when my teacher plays it, anyway. It's fun trying to figure out how to get that sound myself. One day I will, I hope!
Those cents lower are nothing. Unless tuning is problematic, just think of the many professionals living and deceased who use/d gut strings. While the modern cores are more stable, the fact is that nylon core strings are rock-solid stability-wise, even when you have to retune them every once in a while.
It's pretty normal for new strings to need regular tuning for a while (maybe couple of weeks? I've really never bothered to take note of how long it takes.) as they stretch out.
Mary Ellen: Think "Freeway Philharmonic" (fully professional but per-service pay) -- not great pay (although of course supplemented with other gigs and teaching).
On the gut vs. synthetic question: People who are used to playing on gut are also used to making adjustments when the strings go out very slightly of tune. That's a skill unto itself, and it makes accurate intonation more difficult.
Freeway Philharmonic...that's what I thought. May I respectfully suggest that if your friend(s) are harboring any ambitions to win an audition for a bigger job, they need to figure out a way to get a better violin. The quality of the instrument makes a difference in the audition--we can hear it on the other side of the screen.
Ms. Leong,
Totally agreed on that, though we all could benefit from such "on the fly" pitch adjustment.
That said, I don't believe gut strings will be the answer, even though that's my personal preference.
I mostly wanted to say that, since Pro Arte are nylon core (like Dominants, Synoxa, etc.), she should not worry as much by the relative "instability" they are currently experiencing, as in waking up to find the violin slightly lower in tune. Compared to gut strings, that is nothing, as nylon is quite insensitive to climate changes and very, very stable compared to even Passiones. I know that my Synoxa strings can some mornings/evenings be slightly out of tune (which is rare with modern strings) but it's so easy just to tune them back to pitch (and them remaining in tune for the whole session) that it's quite a minor factor.
In other words, "modern" core is more stable than nylon, but nylon (perlon, etc.) is super stable compared to gut. And even gut, as you stated, you just adapt to the way they may misbehave (though I mostly prefer when they stay in tune when fully stretched, which many do IME.) But all this said, Ms. Roth would find gut too "unstable" to use, given her current preferences-maybe these Pro Arte are perfect for her right now, while she finds a better, more suitable instrument.
Gut does something different in a controlled climate, when they are not played-they tend to go up in tune, rather than down (once fully stretched.) Despite this capriciousness, I have to be honest in stating that no other string, no matter how great (and I like synthetics too), do sound as good nor have that feel under both bow and fingers.
(Of course, I do not mean to super-impose my preferences or opinions on anyone, so feel free to disagree.)
I find I can keep nylon strings longer than "composite" strings. Or Obligatos longer than Evahs. So tension has some bearing on string life.
My slightly dull-toned "pleasant"violin was strung with PI G&D, Chromcor-Eudoxa steel A, and Pirastro No1 wound E. In orchestras, I couldn't even hear myself, although everyone said I was too loud: a very dangerous combination!
So I now have all four "soft" Tonicas: a sweet brilliance, less Volume and more Projection. Ha!
I had the following experience. When I restarted the violin, I just used the violin I had when I was a kid. It's gorgeous, being made from birds-eye maple with a yellow-orange colored varnish. My teacher told me it sounded "stuffed" and he suggested I contact a local pro who has some good violins that I could try, so that I could hear what I was missing. So I went over to this pro's house with my violin, and after a cup of coffee and having a wonderful conversation about violins and bows, he asked me to play something on my violin, which I did. Then he took out a "student" violin valued at roughly $10k, and asked me to play the same thing again. The first note blew me away, filling his living room with huge sound. That sent me into a tizzy to find an instrument for myself, and I tried maybe 25 violins in half a dozen shops (I would check out violin shops while traveling for chemistry conferences!) and planning to spend around $10k. While in Richmond I had my birds-eye violin with me, and I had the top regraded (really!!) at Kapeller's (a very good shop IMO) and it was definitely improved but still not close to a good violin. The luthier there also measured it and informed me that it's a 7/8 size. He said everything about the violin is over-constructed, the blocks inside are too heavy, he said he had never removed so much material doing a regrade, etc. On another occasion when I handed the violin to Dalton Potter to ask his opinion about further adjustments, he immediately told me the violin is too heavy and would have to be completely disassembled and rebuilt to have any hope. Eventually I settled on a violin made in 2006 by Polish luthier Wojciech Topa, you can look up what those are going for if you're curious, but I paid about 3/4 of the price you'll find online.
I looked up the maker of my old birds-eye violin (Claude Watson of San Diego, California) and discovered that he was known mostly for making guitars and only took up violin making in his later years. Now, that's not quite as bad as a gunsmith, but why my childhood teacher recommended that violin to me in 1976 (violin is dated 1972), this I cannot fathom. I'm going to turn it into an electric fiddle.
Darlene, I'd suggest going to Fiddlershop.com instead of going back to the gunsmith (!!!!) for another go around with his offerings.
Mary-Ellen: He doesn't have more ambitions (he's already fairly old), but I agree. He's drawing an enormous sound from the instrument, but there's a raw edge to it. (The concertmaster of my community orchestra draws a very nice sound from a much-abused cheap violin, but no doubt could also use an upgrade.)
More broadly: No matter how good of a player you are, there is a limit to what you can coax out of a given instrument. A technically skilled player may be able to draw the very best out of what's there, but it may be a struggle and there will be limits to what the instrument can give.
So Darlene, you should upgrade. :-)
Lydia I really like your arguments but not but not only because we seem to agree :) I think upgrade is the way to go when appropriate and that is not just opinionating.
I have been fortunate enough to try some pedigreed violins and the difference was hard to believe.
Seraphim I bet if you look at Fiddlerman you will find a violin priced right around where I have quoted ( i.e. $1300 vs.$1299 ).
What a coincidence !
I hope I'm not out of line with this.
Darlene, a lot of your posts that I've seen in different threads seem to have a "cart before the horse" flavor to them. I get the sense that you spend a lot of time thinking about violins that you could be using more constructively.
Forgive me for projecting, but I'm seeing a bit of my own experience here, where a while ago, I thought there was some magic formula to violin playing. In my opinion, there is a definite hierarchy to what it takes to playing well, and it seems like a lot of the issues that you are highly focused on, such as which strings to get, are sort of third-tier issues.
Obviously, you need a violin and bow that you can do something with. I don't know what your teacher situation, but a good teacher that you trust is a very important part of directing you towards what to best spend your time on, and a good teacher can help you select the proper violin and bow. With those things, then you must understand that violin playing is a process with ups and downs, which allows you to put the time you need in to practice, and without worrying every day whether you got better or fretting about your violin sounding a little different than yesterday.
Sure, it's important to find a comfortable set-up, but we can spend a lot of time on stuff like strings and rosin, or we can outsource these decisions to *good* luthiers and repairers so that we can focus on the journey and not get distracted.
Again, I could have things completely wrong, and I don't want to stifle good conversation, but it can just be so easy to make things way too complicated.
To follow up one of my previous posts:
I play on a $500 Chinese violin (not VSO)
But I've also invested about $5,400 in lessons over the past three years.
I can't say for sure, but I wager that the results are better having spent $5,000 on lessons and only $500 on the violin, rather than spending $5000 on the violin and only $500 on lessons....
Perhaps give up on both violin and piano, and take up buffalo hunting?
;^)
What are your violin ambitions ?
Mine?
To be the best player I can be. I just love playing, and wish I had started sooner. I enjoy the challenge the violin provides of making you have to do everything just right to get a nice sound (reward), and being totally unforgiving of mistakes (punishment).
Starting out at age 45 probably limits my chances of a solo career, but you never know!
Having a good time is not forbidden if you are discreet about it.
Violins are icky and boring. Yodeling around the subdivision is much more entertaining. Try it, and see what you think.
Is that meant to be encouraging? Darlene need a hug, not mockery..
There wasn't any direct response to Christian's post, but I think he was both keenly perceptive and warmly supportive. That's the kind of hug that's needed, not the kind that says, "There, there."
I spent a fair sum on my violin, but one reason I did is because I really didn't want to always be wondering, "Is it me or is it my instrument?" My teacher has played my violin (with my bow), so I know it is capable of producing a great sound. At least, I think it's great, and in my hands it keeps getting better gradually, and that inspires me to work on it.
And the good news Paul is that you may be even better than you think!
I just recorded my own playing and the sound from the new Pro Arts was much better than I would imagine.
I think that is the "under the chin" effect?
You may sound as good as your teacher if you could hear it :)
The closest I come to yodeling is Sound of Music !
I agree with that-having a violin and bow that make you wonder "is it me, or...?" hampers improvement, as there's a temptation to blame strings/setup/instrument where we could be focusing on our own improvement (rather than "improving" the violin.)
Annoying or even painful resonances will not go away just by practicing more, and will prevent progress. There is a huge difference between managing a violin full of "character" and cringing from a wailing banshhee.
can a friend play yiu the violin from a distance?
Adrian wrote:
"Is that meant to be encouraging? Darlene need a hug, not mockery.."
Oh good grief! Have you no sense of humor? It appears that Darlene does.
I was trying to be funny too. Not My Day!
My sense of humor is being constantly refueled by my dogs when I practice. One leaves the room and the other goes under the bed. ,
Not to worry !
OK, sorry, Adrian. Everybody knows I say weird stuff just to be goofy, but I didn't know that you do too. Here's a couple of hugs:
00
And one for Darlene: 0
(I hope those were hugs and not kisses. I forget which symbol goes with which)
On a more serious note about violin stability. My new Pro Arts are behaving very nicely but it has been raining on and off for over one week. So conditions are stable even if bad.
And the selfie audio recording has boosted my confidence.
The justification to dump my present violin is fading but I am keeping a close ear on it.
Carbon fibre violins are very stable, but only if you like the sound.
Are you surprised - They didn't call the violin the fiddle for nothing , did they?
Is that a suggestion that the violin is fickle ?
Maybe things improve with age? (The violin and mine.)
Not so much that; more that one can't play it without being on the fiddle.
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April 15, 2015 at 02:43 AM · What is normally wrong with it tonally?
Have you tried lower tension strings before?