I can play flat naturally.

August 30, 2014 at 08:06 PM · I could probably do a search for my question but I'm not really sure what the topic is !

I have an ordinary midi sheet music download for a popular classical piece. It is in the key of Eb. After the first chorus the key signature changes to 3 naturals and the Eb key continues as the 3 notes having a literal flat sign.

This is not a transposition (?)

I hope this is useful!

I find it harder to play having 3 physical flat notations than to just play in Eb.

Replies (22)

August 30, 2014 at 10:00 PM · I can play flat naturally too!

And sharp.

And occasionally, just occasionally,

in tune.

Seriously, is this download the full score?

August 30, 2014 at 10:05 PM · There could be any number of reasons for this.

A common one I found occurs in electronic scoring software.

If you are capturing a score in C Major, for example, and using a transposition feature to move the tonic to Eb, then the flats are literally inserted in the score.

They might have been doing it in sections and forgot to insert the new key signature.

With a MIDI file, you can import it into many popular scoring programs, such as MuseScore, and quickly correct the editing issue.

August 31, 2014 at 02:15 AM · New research.








August 31, 2014 at 08:12 AM · To answer your other question:

If you know you are in in E-flat major, your hand probably slips back into half position with a good, square 1st finger, and a "sharpened" 3rd.

Violists do this conciously, as their hands are more stretched out, but violinists tend just to slip back as required.

When you see no key signature, your hand may adopt a "true" 1st position, and the flats are played by bending the fingers back as thy appear: intonation is less reliable.

It's a common problem, which I find easy to demonstate to students, but not to teachers!

August 31, 2014 at 11:20 AM · Lazy engraving. If they were doing a good job the change from key sig to accidental signs wouldn't happen, because they'd tidy it up. Of course, it could be a lack of knowledge rather than laziness.

August 31, 2014 at 01:04 PM · The whole business just doesn't make sense to me because I fail to see that games with key signature buys some welcome advantage.

A bass clef is no problem. Other notation also serves a purpose. Also, I would assume that the IMLSP manuscript is without any technical flaws of modern type setting.

The key change in the referenced quartet only lasts for about 10 bars and reverts?

August 31, 2014 at 03:29 PM · Not lazy engraving, and do not assume IMSLP is correct. In order to keep an arms-length from ANY copyright infringement issue, most of the music posted uses the earliest edition available. They are often rife with errata because of that.

August 31, 2014 at 04:35 PM · Sorry - I was referring to the midi-file score when I mentioned lazy engraving.

The Ravel - It looks like he has written an unprepared modulation. I don't understand why you think it's a problem being for ten bars (or however many it is I didn't check). Bach quite happily modulates for less than a bar.

August 31, 2014 at 04:38 PM · The Ravel score seems fine. From rehearsal 15 to rehearsal 18, I think it is in F-sharp mixolydian. There isn't a good way to notate that with the key signature, so Ravel wrote it with 3 sharps to make you think of F-sharp minor. At rehearsal 18, it modulates back to the original key of the movement, A minor.

August 31, 2014 at 04:40 PM · Thanks Peter - I'd thought F# minor. Must brush up on my modes!

August 31, 2014 at 05:05 PM · Anything I do not understand is a problem even if I can play it. The violin will eventually get even!

Little more homework here and I'm home free!

August 31, 2014 at 05:26 PM · Sorry - I thought that if you were playing quartets, such as the Ravel, then your music theory would be at least grade five (and more likely higher). That's why I was puzzled that you didn't "get" the modulation.

Just checked your profile and it says you're a beginner, so my bad for making assumptions regarding you and the Ravel. At the risk of patronising you - this

Modulation Link 1 gives a very brief overview of modulation.

This has a little more detail Link 2

but there are lots of resources out there that go into more depth.

August 31, 2014 at 06:09 PM · I was a beginner about 6 years ago and I do manage to play over my head because I don't know any better.

Thanks for the very good info.

Here's the thing. I would expect ... by definition ... that a modulation is audible. If I can't hear it then what? The article mainly discussed cases where the notes change.

The notes as heard in the Quartet example do not change?

This situation is not a crisis for me but very interesting and I appreciate the replies.

In fact, I think I have my own "modulation" with

"A" being the happiest key!

September 3, 2014 at 01:24 AM · After 3 days of relentless modulation surfing I now know just about everything but the answer.

C'est la vie!

September 3, 2014 at 10:09 AM · Are you puzzling about not being able to hear the modulation? It could just be that you need to listen to the piece a few more times to really spot the tonal change. It might be more difficult because of the use of the modal scale before it - we're more used to major or minor tonalities. (Just guessing there - don't know for sure - but we do tend to spot the more familiar changes more easily - like the half step up modulation in pop songs).

Edit - referring to the Ravel here.

September 3, 2014 at 11:41 AM · Should I be hearing that the key of Eb sounds different than the key(signature) of C notated as Eb ?

There would be a difference if I were playing!

September 3, 2014 at 12:21 PM · No. Stay in half-position, if there are still many flats. Don't be tricked by the notation: it's the hand that plays! See my post above.

September 3, 2014 at 12:34 PM · OK - I think things got a bit confused because you mentioned the midi sheet and the Ravel - which I'm assuming are different as the ravel is in F, not E-flat.

So - the midi sheet could be a lazy transcription - for whatever reason, maybe a cut and paste - the key signature didn't copy, so the accidentals for E-flat have been added. Or it could be a modulation to the relative minor - C minor, but I would have expected the key signature to continue, rather than using incidentals and unless the natural (relative) minor was used, you'd expect to see accidentals such as the B-flat going to B-natural.

So - on the assumption that the music stays in E-flat you should not hear any difference between playing music with a key signature or accidentals as you are playing the exact same notes. My guess would be that you are having to concentrate more when there are accidentals and so you are a little more tense which is closing up your hand and changing your intonation a fraction, and that is creating the difference in sound.

September 3, 2014 at 11:51 PM · "and I do manage to play over my head"...

Who taught you this particular way of holding the instrument?

September 4, 2014 at 12:20 AM · Not original I must confess.

I owe all credit to my idol Linsey Stirling.

( They may not like this in church?)

September 6, 2014 at 12:16 AM · Well, she thinks she'll be a god some day - She won't, of course. But as far as I can tell, she holds the violin under her chin like everybody else. How can she have taught you to play above your head?

September 6, 2014 at 04:15 AM · I can tell that you are not familiar with the leading edge of the art.

Surf on willie hall to come up to speed. (YouTube ).

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