For sale a good Manoel Francisco bow. Silver mounted, ivory frog.
Hello,
I'm selling this beautiful bow. Masterfully made by one of Brazil's leading bowmakers. It's not the lightest bow ever but it's completely stable. Gorgeous reddish-brown pernambuco stick carefuly selected by the maker himself. Silver mounted with real ivory tourte-shaped frog. Just rehaired. I'm selling it because I'm in need of the money, otherwise I would never do it. USD 1500.
Replies (28)
Wikipedia: "The African elephant was placed on Appendix One in January 1990. Since then, some southern African countries have had their populations of elephants "downlisted" to Appendix Two, allowing sale of some stockpiles.[4][5][6][7][8].". ^ "Asian Elephant". Cites.org. Retrieved 2013-06-24.
^ Jump up to: a b c "To Save An Elephant" by Allan Thornton & Dave Currey, Doubleday 1991 ISBN 0-385-40111-6
Jump up ^ "Increased Demand for Ivory Threatens Elephant Survival". Washingtonpost.com. Retrieved 2013-06-24.
Jump up ^ 12:00 AM (2002-10-31). "Lifting the Ivory Ban Called Premature". NPR. Retrieved 2013-06-24.
Jump up ^ "WWF Wildlife Trade - elephant ivory FAQs". Worldwildlife.org.
Actually, Lyndon, are you sure this bow was made using ivory from an elephant killed after 1990 (Yes, I know he only started making bows in 1995, but that doesn't mean that the ivory he used was of recent kill)?
Lyndon, that it not necessarily so. It depends on what type of ivory it is. And saying he should report himself before he has even sold (or had the chance to state the type of ivory) is a bit presumptuous.
Bruno, I suggest you do your research on what type of ivory it is. From what I understand, if it is from an asian elephant you could be in some deep trouble and in violation of international treaties for selling it. (Assuming you are caught.)
Please correct me if I am wrong on any of the information- I don't mean to be arrogant or standoffish.
B
As far as I have been told the ban extends to using antique ivory on new products, only antique products with original ivory are permitted. Possessing it may not be so much of a crime, but selling it is.
edit, I checked online and at least one bow by this maker is being offered as mammoth ivory frog, so you may be off the hook if that is the case.
Also I should add its a blatant disregard of forum rules to advertise products for sale in the general forum, that is only permitted for a limited time in the advertising section, check the terms of service above where you make your initial new post.
I'm sorry, I didn't know of this law. However, I hardly think it's the illegal type, otherwise I don't see a reason for the maker to keep making them. What I've been told is that he makes these frogs from antique decoration pieces he found in a vintage sale.
About the post - yes I intended to post it under commercial notices but I forgot. Is it possible to edit that? Well, as the post was approved I don't think it's much of a problem.
Bruno, I think you can salve your conscience with a suitable donation to violinist.com.
Wikipedia suggested that some African elephant ivory has been released from the ban. They are starting to use DNA testing to determine where ivory came from, http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/23/a-powerful-weapon-against-ivory-smugglers-dna-testing/ , but I would imagine frogs made from previous antiques, whilst perhaps technically in breach of the law (I don't know) are so far from breaking the spirit of it that reasonable officials would leave you alone. But who knows? European Union officialdom, for instance, is being TRAINED to be unreasonable.
Lyndon, why do you feel the need to speak to people that way?
Maybe you should take it to africa and try and tell a bull elephant you think its OK to kill him for his tusks!!
I see little but ivory use apologists on these violin forums, no one even thinks about the elephants, just their own selfish desire to own something shiny white, well try bone, its virtually indistinguishable.
I should point out that Bruno and this bow are in Brazil and its absolutely illegal to import anything with elephant ivory into the US, and even if it is mammoth ivory, the customs officials likely won't know the difference, chances are you'll receive a pernambuco stick minus the frog and the bow tip for your $1500.
I can understand the rage of Lyndon! Its really stupid and outdated to make bows with an ivory frog. Its just so unnecessary and only poor-minded people can actually want an ivory frog. Stating, that it is from old furnitures is not an excuse for me. The bow makers should focus on other things in my opinion.
Trouble is, everything like that is so lax in Brazil (and a lot more used to be even laxer some 40-50 years ago). Probably even now Manoel Francisco doesn't realize there's an issue. I must admit, though, with Simon I don't see the point of ivory frogs. One day I hope to see whether they can be grown from ivory tadpoles (which one might be able to make from hippos' teeth). And do they have the proper Sorbonne accent.
Lyndon, I didn't realize that you spoke the African elephants' language. Which dialect is it that you speak, and are you literate in it as well?
I don't like the use of ivory, either, but I wonder if those of you who protest so much are vegans? Why only concern yourselves with one animal?
EDIT EDIT EDIT: I just typed this whole big thing out about ex post facto and such. I did not realize that the bow in question is in Brazil. This should be taken into consideration in my previous posts as well. I apologize.
Bruno, the importation of ANY type of elephant ivory besides mammoth or mastodon is completely illegal.
I think violinist.com should freeze anymore comments on this post, as not to exacerbate the issue.
B
I thought the same as Andrew. Besides that, is this scandal really necessary? If you want to buy it, thank you, otherwise...
EDIT and yes please if moderation sees this please delete this post
This is the 21st century, and you're surprised that trafficking in ivory is illegal, and you want to know what all the big fuss is about, perhaps they don't have National Geographic in Brazil, elephants for your information are endangered and among the most intelligent species on earth, and you want to blame this on vegans, well I'm putting the blame where it belongs on elephant poachers, and you, innocent or not, are making yourself party to all that....
Oh, the vegan debate... lets skip that.
I don't see the relation between eating an animal and killing an animal just to decorate a violin bow with his teeth.
Eating should be essential (of course our relation to meat is heavily disturbed, but thats a different book entirely). Having an animals part at a violin bow to me is very unnecessary with exception to a leather for the thumb.
I used to know a cellist, who was looking for a bow with ivory frog. I felt that this was a so superficial and vain criterion, that it should not be supported. But it showed me, that there are people, who buy this kind of decorations and as long as this is the case, they will be sold...
Lyndon, "blame this on vegans"? I don't think you understood Andrew's point. What he's saying is, if you claim to be so bothered about the elephants and you're not vegans (actually, "vegetarians" would have been good enough to make his point), aren't you being a bit hypocritical? All right, elephants are endangered and pigs are not (Did you see that Gary Larson cartoon, see http://www.g391.ru/video.php?yt=57wcedtGpc8 , roger fancher's first comment? Larson has also drawn us the sheep that give us steel wool, but he never drew us the leaches that bleed our brakes for us), but, though not as bad as hippos, they're not 100% nice to have around - I remember Joyce talking to the kids about when Mr Elephant gets on to the compound: "Leave him alone. If you annoy him, he'll take you in his trunk, throw you into the air, catch you on his tusks, and that will be the end of YOU". And you know about Hannibal's use of them. But I suppose I have to admit, conservation IS important.
I am a vegetarian but the reasons for not killing elephants, whales and dolphins are partly because they are higher life forms, and deserve respect and protection, me personally I think all animals deserve this, but killing a higher sentient being just for its Ivory is so wrong on so many levels, you by no way need to be vegetarian to appreciate that.
Bruno...keep the bow.
And if you move...be aware you might have to leave it behind (sell it then)...
Or go see Manoel Francisco and get a different bow.
I have a gold-mounted violin bow by him that has a plan ebony frog, no ivory, no abalone, nothing! It's an excellent player...
Actually, theoretically, you don't HAVE to kill elephants to get their ivory. And in these days of superior surveillance, might it not be possible to find elephants when they're dead and harvest the ivory then (Mind you, gifting-wise, I am the antithesis of a naturalist, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about)?
I think in the 1960s it was deemed necessary to CULL African elephants - In 1963 at uni I met the 20-year-old smashing blonde widow (and really nice with it) of a game warden who had been KILLED during one of those culling operations (She had come to uni to take up the place she had given up to get married two years previously - I believe she finished up with a first in physics and went to America).
@john - I was thinking the same thing but believe this may just lead into a loop hole for poachers if able to collect from the wild. I think the only real logical, safest and most humane way would be to collect from elephants that die naturally from a protected reserve; from the reserve workers. the only real concern (like OP's bow) is how distinguish legal and recently acquired (if this were legal) ivory from illegally poached elephants. Even then traveling with "legal" ivory would still be a nightmare.
but perhaps they could auction it off to the highest bidder and all profits could go back to protecting the elephants! win-win IMO.
Another point: we can harvest all the dead mammoth ivory without any concern, so if a protected elephant dies of natural causes, why not collect?
BTW I am not in anyway supporting the harming of any protected species.
Make the only legal supply of ivory in the country the official government one and arrest anyone at the frontier travelling with ivory that doesn't have a government certificate. And bring observers from abroad to make sure officials do not extort "bribes" (OK if the country's government is like Kenya's, but a bit more problematical with some other governments).
mammoth ivory is in good supply and the animal is not endangered.
extinct is not endangered??? thats what elephants will soon be if you crazy ivory lovers don't wake up!!
You can hardly blame the extinction of mammoths and mastodons on the modern man. I'm pretty sure the neolithic man hunted them to death.
I thought it was the weather.
This may be of interest
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/09/africa-elephant-ivory-hunters-crisis-summit
Cheers,
buri
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February 4, 2014 at 12:59 AM · I suggest you report yourself for illegal trafficking in Ivory, disgusting!!