I've put together a series of videos that go into more detail about how to approach set up with a 360º spherically adjustable chin rest like the kréddle. I'd love your feedback and comments!
Kréddle Violin Set Up Part 1: shifting our mindset, & body position
Kréddle Violin Set Up Part 2: laws of violin playing & the "Four Guys"
Kréddle Violin Set Up Part 3: devil's advocate positions
Kréddle Violin Set Up Part 4: the kréddle and violin playing
As usual you make a lot of sense; very insightful.
Again, I am very grateful for the Kréddle. It is exactly what I had sought for years (though I do still need a thin pad on top) and is making a vast difference.
I like your approach; trusting in people's own ability to find an optimal setup, with just some guidance and a great adaptable tool, instead of the rather patronising and dismissive approach of some who once ignored me as just "another self-diagnoser in a distant land".
Regards and much success.
This looks amazing... solving so many chin rest problems at once. Quick question: if I had it on its highest setting, would it fit in the violin case? Or is it quick and easy to lower if it doesn't fit in the case?
I am able to close my case with the Kreddle on the highest setting. I have a Bobelok oblong case. And yes, it is relatively quick and easy to remove the Kreddle, but it is not something you would want to do every time you put your violin away.
Mine does not fit. I just remove/replace the chin plate and post together as a unit in a couple of seconds.
You might want to check with Jordan on that. I would think that removing it every day, besides being a pain in the butt, would shorten the life of the Kreddle. The set screw is pretty small so I don't know if it was designed for repeated threading and un-threading.
My question on the original Kréddle thread, last year:
How easy is it, in your experience, to regain your optimal setting and how is it with wear and tear, say being re-adjusted a couple of times a day? (I presume that at the lowest height it will fit in a normal case but probably not while in its optimal playing position...not for me anyway).
and Jordan's response:
In regards to wear and tear. We are putting threaded inserts into the composite material to ensure that the Kréddle can be continually adjusted, as much as you want, without having to worry about anything stripping out. And the composite material is some of the strongest and most durable material available. I cannot imagine you having any problems with durability. In terms of regaining your optimal setting--this is a matter of how well you remember where you like it really. Just like with a shoulder rest, one gets used to seeing where it should go, force of habit and such. There's nothing to make finding your setting over and over again more difficult, it'll move where you put it.
Me again, regards.
Thanks for the response. That does not surprise me. The Kreddle is an exceptionally well made product and Jordan is a very conscientious business person.
I found that the chin cup did not fit the contour of my jaw bone so for now, I am not using the Kreddle. But I wrote to Jordan and he said that if/when he comes out with a different cup shape, he will send me one.
My current chin rest is a custom rest that I got from Gary Frisch. The process of getting fit for a chin rest involved trying about 15 different chin rest styles; each with a different shape and contour. After we found the best fit, then we concentrated on getting the perfect height. Then Gary made a custom rest with the shape and height that fit best. But here's the rub, when I got the chin rest, it was not exactly the same as the "sample" he had. I chose a Flesch model. The contour of the final product is close but not exactly the same as the "demo" model in the shop. So the fit is good, but not perfect. If only I could adjust the chin rest like the Kreddle, then I would be a happy camper. But for now, I continue to the use the custom chin rest that I got from Gary. It is not ideal, but it suffices.
Sorry if this goes off topic a little, but has anyone tried the moldable chinrest pad... I think I've seen it on Shar... basically, it's a big round blob. You heat it up, stick it on your chin rest, put your chin down and play for a while, and as it cools, it conforms to your jaw shape. If it works as I imagine, that would be great on top of a Kreddle...
I believe Tara is speaking of the "impressionist". I tried it once. It will indeed mold to the shape of your jaw. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me because it added height I didn't need (I have a fairly short neck).
I had wondered how you found the Kréddle. Unfortunately, Frisch and Denig's only response to me was to c.c. (to me) that comment in my first post, written from the one to the other. It was great to find the Kréddle after that.
I think Kréddle, with a thin pad of some sort on top is a very good option for extra height and or comfort.
While I can get the angle and height really comfortable with the kreddle, i can't stop the feeling that I am slipping off it - back toward my sternum when the angle is just right. If I adjust to account for that, then if creates an uncomfortable dig into the bottom of the jawline which is most unexpected. I am such a difficult to please customer. I'm going to go through the videos v-e-r-y slowly (I've only just been able to download via adsl) and see if I have done something fundametally stoopid in adjustment.
I don't think you are doing anything stoopid, except for the spelling of the word stupid. But other than that, you are having the same problem I was. The Kreddle is infinitely adjustable. It adjusts for height, angle and translational position. But it does not allow adjustment of the cup shape. So while I believe it is an awesome product, it lacks a very important adjustment to make it suitable for all people.
I am hoping that Jordan creates a chin cup similar to the Flesch chin rest. That will not suit everyone, but it is a "popular" chin rest so I would assume that a good portion of the population would find it comfortable.
moldable plastic which I used to custom make the cup to my chinrest. It's a little tricky to use but if you're handy with making plugs and molds it can offer at least a temporary solution. Lots of videos online. I've avoided the Kreddle because of it's cup shape.I haven't tried the 'impressionist' but I believe it's the same material as this
The problem with molding the cup shape too closely to jaw shape is that it then fixes your position.
@Eric: Thanks for your message about the videos. Putting together the language is a work in progress.
As to taking the post in an out every time; I stand by what I said last year. At that time the plan was to use a threaded insert. We ended up changing the design slightly right before going into production though. We actually ended up going with the current nut-in-a-socket design, which ultimately should be even more durable. A threaded insert relies on a rough outer surface to mate with the composite material; in a sense a more frictional approach. By and large this would be fine, but using a nut introduces a much more robust *mechanical* mating with the carbon fiber composite.
I do feel obliged to say that the kréddle is fairly new. I have done everything I can think of to ensure that the kréddle offers everyone years and years of good service. However, there is not any other way to truly know how removing and replacing the post every time will stress the parts, other than to actually see how they perform over time. I will say however that if any of you have a problem, please send me an email and I'll do what I can to work with you and find a solution.
@Smiley with regard to the shape of the chin cup:
Yes, jaw shape is perhaps the one area the kréddle does not currently address directly. The kréddle's 360º spherical adjustment capability can address the issue in an indirect way however. The movements do allow one to customize the approach to the jaw, or the sensation the jaw receives. In an ideal world we would also be able to customize the jaw plate shape as you say. I do one day plan on offering a larger selection--perhaps chin plates for more angular faces, one for more rounded jaw lines, and another to split the difference. I recently went to a workshop given in Boulder, CO by a recent student of Crissman Taylor. She mentioned that in the violinistinbalance studies they made jaw contour maps. They found that (if I'm not mistaken) most jaw shapes can be accommodated by one of three main archetypal chin plate contours. I think it would be great to have the kréddle AND to look at incorporating some of their chin plate contour archetypes.
As an aside (and I'm probably preaching to the choir here), the folks over at violinistinbalance.nl have done some great work. For those who have not seen their work, I highly recommend taking a look!
The videos are really my way of expressing principles of set up that I found helpful for myself. Any attempt to get too specific on issues of set up may help some but could also hurt others. Instead I believe we need to have a set of principles to work from, and then explore how to apply those principles to set up ourselves. The main thesis of the videos is that we must start with a clear idea of how we want our body positionally, and how we want to move in our violin playing. Only then do we explore different tools to help us attain those ideal positions and motions. Without such an idea, we may end up subconsciously settling with a 'lesser-of-all-evils' set up.
In the videos, I tried to show most of the concepts of violin playing motions and body position that resonated with me; that made sense in my mind. I also tried to go a step further and explain *why* I believe the concepts bring us closer to ideal motions/positions. The internet is full of advice, which gives us a great resource, especially in places like violinist.com. However, in my opinion it can also be a slightly dangerous place, because too often people give advice without explaining the *why*. This can be especially iffy for young players, who are in the process of developing their understanding of various aspects of violin playing such as body position, kinesthetics, violin motions, etc. Young or new players are thus not necessarily equipped to sift through the advice given. I am personally not against advice giving so long as the *why* behind the thought is clearly stated. In this way we can have intelligent debate about various aspects, with less talking past each other and in ways that examine principles. Principles being by nature, far more generally applicable and customizable than specific statements.
Once I get paid tomorrow I cant wait to order! My current CR I feel is almost a low profile CR and I recently found out I have a longer neck which explains why sometimes I feel the need to clamp down on the CR. With my Wolf Forte (very customizable SR [and please dont go there since i said the two letters SR]) and soon to own kreddle I hope to get a fully customizable and comfortable set-up.
I'll be sure to leave a personal review and comments for anyone interested
Jordan, thank you for the thorough explanation. I'm happy to see your thinking on finding an 'in balance' way of setting up, since even though I feel okay when I start out, often as playing progresses things start to feel awkward. I've always felt as though I should play restless, for instance, and I can manage for about 30 minutes, and then that gets too tense because of the chinrest not feeling supportive enough. And with SR, a chinrest feels too obstructive - a Diamond and the wittner hypoallergenic are at present as close as I can get, other than kreddle if only I didn't feel that I had to trap the kreddle. Violin set up has been a bitch for 5 years, since I moved off the 3/4 size.
I have a very tall custom rest from Gary Frisch. He wasn't happy about having to build it for me; I insisted. So it's easy for me to imagine him having a phrase like that shored up for me as well.
He and Lynne believe in an ergonomic system, and I'm sure they have our best interests at heart when they discourage what doesn't meet their paradigm...but as I told them, some of us are physiologically anomalous. There is no one system that will explain us all. I have so much trouble with my levator scalpulae I wonder if it isn't attached to the wrong bone, or something. In any event, they would have my rest over 10mm lower than it is, and I would be an ex-violinist if their standards were law. I met with them for a fitting years ago, and the resulting rest didn't address my pain.
The Kreddle is too low, unfortunately. I'll have to keep waiting.
Bessie, from what I see on my Kreddle, the post isn't exactly all that difficult to extend. A shop could saw the tall one in half, and install some more material to extend the height.
Jordan, how about an interlocking post piece that has multiple units to adjust the total height? :)
I raised the height of my Kréddle chinrest by about 7mm by putting strips of cork under the base. Without that additional height the Kréddle wouldn't have worked for me, but now it works very well. I had had a flat Flesch chinrest modified to raise it by almost 2cm, but the Kréddle fits much better for me, and removing that very heavy Flesch rest improved the tone of my violin as well.
How did so many giraffes learn to play the violin!!!
just kidding. but even on its highest setting the kreddle is quite tall compared to most other chin rest. I hope you guys are adjusting your SR (if applicable) as well. While setting up my kreddle, I found that I actually had to reshape my SR a bit due to my old CR's improper height (my SR pad plate is bendable so you can really contour it to your body's shape). This resulted in SLIGHTLY lower and flatter violin placement. With the SR and CR height pretty much zeroed in, the last part was fitting the actual CR to my chin. After getting that set up, I made the final adjustment (a slight tweak) to my SR so now it feels like my chin "locks" into place.
Thank you Jordan for this excellent product. Not only did I notice a HUGE comfort and playability increase, my teacher was able to see this right away before I even started playing! My arm is now comfortably right under my violin instead of offset to the side, which helps my left hand placement/form. The other most noticeable improvement, my bow is a lot straighter. With no longer feeling cramped, my bow arm feels more free as well. The only downside: no one else can comfortably play it except me! If my teacher needs to quickly tune my instrument, she has to adjust to it and its obvious its not set up for her. Once again, thank you Jordan.
Once I get home I'll post pictures of my set up
Nick- I don't use a shoulder rest. Anything that touches my trapezius causes my shoulder to seize up. I used them as a young student, had to stop in my late 20s. I experiment with them periodically...even a cosmetic sponge messes me up.
I understand the frustration. The space I have to fill from collarbone to jaw is about 14cm, give or take and I could get no one to take it (among other things) seriously at all. Apart from the (worse than) no-response from L&D and being totally ignored a few other times, I've been variously advised to "take up swimming", use a high shoulder rest (illogical in my view), learn to not touch the chin-rest at all, "do NOT use a tall chin rest, it will damage the violin" and even "there is no such thing as a long neck".
I believe Jordan has taken this seriously but was, like you, disappointed that the height was lowered from prototype to production. Even so I can manage with a little foam padding on top and eagerly await promised (?) higher posts. I have thought of extending the longest post myself but prefer not to. I think overall mine is about 1cm higher than Nick's.
BTW are you ever called Nessie (on account of your long neck?) :-)
I just checked my collarbone to chin is about 12cm so not as long as your neck. You can cheaply to raise the CR height by adding some cork, as someone else probably said already. If you dont have any cork material laying around it may be time to open a bottle of wine and use the cork from that! Hopefully in the future there can be some longer post made for special orders or as an included extra height pack? (ex 4.5cm, 5.0cm, 5.5cm, etc total CR height)
And about people calling me Nessie, if you give me about $3.50 ill let you know.
A caveat with the neck measurements is that it does depend on exactly how you do it, of course. My maximum is as above. In any case my Kréddle is angled the opposite to yours (bass side higher) to follow my jawline. It would be interesting to know how other's arrange theirs.
Nessie was aimed at Bessie.....but just wondering anyway, do you accept bitcoin?
This is how I measured: looking forward as I would normally, I measure where my SR makes most contact with my collarbone to the bottom of my chin (for me ~4.5 inches).
I think if you really like the Kreddle for its flexibility and customization, you may also want to look into a wolf SR like this one. The metal sheet that holds the pad is bendable and the feet can be finely adjusted both horizontally as well as vertically. Both of these products, I feel, will give you the most comfort while playing when they are set up properly for yourself. The amount of tilt adjustment (feet height), feet's holding length, and pad flexibility is so great, in addition with the kreddle, you really can feel what feels out of place and correct it: from the bottom up (for basic comfort), then the top down (maximum comfort).
This discussion has been archived and is no longer accepting responses.
Violinist.com is made possible by...
Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases
Thomastik-Infeld's Dynamo Strings
Violinist.com Summer Music Programs Directory
ARIA International Summer Academy
Johnson String Instrument/Carriage House Violins
Discover the best of Violinist.com in these collections of editor Laurie Niles' exclusive interviews.
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 1, with introduction by Hilary Hahn
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 2, with introduction by Rachel Barton Pine
December 4, 2013 at 04:27 AM · Thank you for posting these. Very informative and much needed.