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quality and price for 3 old french violins

Instruments: we are looking at purchasing a full size violin for my daughter and need help in deciding on the qualities of the instrument within our budget

From michelle biscoveanu
Posted September 20, 2006 at 12:40 AM

For the budget of 8k-10k, you can also look at modern Italian makers.

To get a really goof French fiddle that is not nasal sounding, one has to spend quite a bit more.

It wasn't until we tried a Terry Borman that we found the violin we were looking for. But that's $25K.

If his name wasn't Chinese would it be $30k? If so - what a sick bunch you are:)

I used to play on a G.B. Morassi, and I must say that I have tried many(and even owned) $5000 Chinese violin that would be as good if it had been played as much. If you don't have the money, get a Chinese violin. Their craftsmanship is as good or better than anything comming from Italy. The materials are the exact same, and most of them got their schooling in Italy. If you want investment pieces, buy stocks. At this price, it's pointless to consider investment value.

Funny you should say that. In 1970's, you could buy an Italian fiddle from the Maker for 5k. That included a great many of the best names today.
And today their prices are of collectables.

A good sounding violin without a pedigree, will not go anywhere in terms of investment and its potential.

10k is nothing to sneeze at ;0

One more thought...Often, the dealers/makers that students and aspiring professionals buy "entry-level" instruments from have some sort of set trade-in policy. If your instrument goes up in value, you still usually get out of it what you put in to it. Often the small gain you would get from 5 to 10 years isn't worth the hassle it takes to sell it to someone other than where you bought it from. Buying violins for investment purposes is great, but most students, at least the ones I know, can't afford to hold on to all of their old instruments when buying a nicer one.

I am definitely a bit fascinated by the strongly held opinions about the sound qualities, and how things are different from far away vs close etc. Unfortunately there is no way to demonstrate this effect in a web post!

A little expample of how these differences can be palpable though, even to an amateur like myself. A few months ago I had the pleasure of attending "The American String Project" at the Seattle Symphony. Besides being an amazing concert, at the end there was a Q&A and someone in the audience asked what instrument each was playing. Well, the interesting thing was that I believe Maria Larionoff (I may be misremembering this now) was playing an *Amati*. What was especially interesting is that I had noticed, when she was playing the melody line in the last or 2nd to last piece, that her sound was beautiful but distinctive in some way. That she played an Amati, which is from what I've heard a somewhat different animal, was instructive. Or so it seemed to me.

I guess what I would find fascinating would be a program where a pro (Gennady--go for it!) could, in a concert hall, demponstrate the differences between instruments to an audience. A "demystification programme" or something.

It seems to be the best values for a student as he/she progresses, in terms of sound quality and playability, are around the $5,000 price point and the $25,000 price point.

Yes, actually it was hectic roundtrip with two full days of surveying.

One evening though, I got to the hotel at 7pm and thought I better get dinner, and I walked down the hill a bit and there was the Seattle Symphony and I did think of you at that moment. I looked at the billboard and it said "American String Project: 7:30 PM". I went in, went upstairs, waited in line for tickets, got out my credit card and was told, "oh, I'm sorry, it is cash only--I hope ....so I opened my wallet and I had *exactly* $28 or whatever! So that is how I didn't go to the "show tunes" or something that was also playing that night! (Where you playing w/Odeon somewhere else I wonder? ) It was back in June.

Indeed next time I'm in Seattle I will look you up should I have a chance. Would be great to meet you!

.............................................................

As for "demystification concert", that sounds like fun.

I try instruments in the hall quite often. My experience is that, there are many instruments that sound good under the ear, but when you take it into the hall, they do not project passed 3 feet. That is what distinguishes (for me) excellent fiddles from the not so ......

My instrument (a mid to early 1800's Mittenwald that was passed to me by my father)is horrendously showing its age and the effects of time - it has about 4-5 mended cracks on the lower part of the body (top), its edges are wearing, it's not exactly pretty - but I LOVE the way it sounds! It's not exactly a valuable instrument, but it suits me.

I know of a 14-year-old I met this summer (she's a fiddler, not a violinist) who was on the search for an instrument for over a year - she took violins home from a luthier, and didn't find any that suited her. Apparently a neighbor had seen a violin in an antique shop that had horrendous damage. She tried it, loved the sound, bought it for a minimal price, and spent the money to get it fixed.

I know of a gentleman who bought one of the modern Italian violin maker's instruments this summer because "he fell in love".

If the student is young, one might solicite the advise of a teacher while trying out the instrument (just to see if the violin can handle eventually what the student will throw at the violin), but otherwise, I'm a bit of a fan of finding what you like (within your ability to pay).

Michelle; Dieudonne violins can vary slightly but often sell within the price range you mentioned. I've not met an instrument bearing a J. B. Collin label that I'd feel great about selling between 8 and 10K, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I am not familiar with the third instrument you mentioned. As I am not able to see the instruments, I really can't comment further.

If you want a reliable second opinion, seek out someone who is qualified and pay them for an evaluation/appraisal; fiddles in hand.

I'm not going to tell you where to shop... but I will mention that in your situation, shop policies (the ability to trade in the instrument for a better one later on) and the depth of inventory (the availability of fiddles at that shop that can one can apply the trade-in value to) are probably as, or more, important than "investment potential" (which I think is minimal in this price range).

I will comment on origin... First there was some incorrect information offered about the Jiang's. Feng Jiang (who lives here in Ann Arbor and won the gold medal for tone/workmanship in Portland, '04) has significant waiting list and new orders are for more like 18K or 20K, not 15K. His brother, Shan, took the silver medal for workmanship in the same competition. He works in Beijing and his instruments usually sell for slightly under7K, presently.... but I have seen them offered higher.

Actually, moving up in price by a few thousand simply offers a wider choice, it does not ensure better quality (as the web is an odd place and you don't always know who you're "speaking" with, I should mention that this statement is being made by a person who has purchased and sold thousands of violins, from your range up...).

As I mentioned "investment potential" in this range is minimal. Finding an appropriate instrument that is healthy and will retain value is the real goal, IMHO. Secondary goals would be the shop policy for later trading and the depth of stock, as I mentioned above.

There are many excellent contemporary makers available starting at about 12K, but most of the makers with established reputations cost a bit more (15K up). I would not say that Italian makers are especially good buys in this range, nor would I exclude some of the ones Gennady mentioned from a recommended list... They are simply some of the choices available... and there are (a very few) makers in places like China and the Czech republic who produce things that will compete in higher price ranges (in terms of performace) but cost less (like the maker mentioned earlier in this thread).

In terms of "vintage" instruments; Frankly, in general, if an instrument is 100 years old and still only commands 10K on the market, it "didn't make the cut". You'd probably be better off with a contemporary one... but let your ears and the player's requirements be your guide. To illustrate value/quality of older instruments @ 10K in another way, if an older instrument requires restoration of any depth, it could easily cost as much or more than the 10K paid for the fiddle to accomplish it. That should tell you what kind of attention these fiddles actually get (in other words, they don't always get the best work). That does not mean that one in really good condition is a bad deal, just that one that isn't in great condition should be approached carefully.

Which makers I would personally recommend depends on the player (size, approach, musical interests) and teacher (where they envision the player "going"). A really good shop will be able to help you with these details... and a really, really good shop will even admit when they might not have what you need and advise you where you can find it.

Yes Jim, Ann Arbor is a pretty cool place... and a great city in which to raise kids; which is why I stayed here to start my own business after leaving "the company". :-)

Jeffrey

J. S. Holmes Fine Violins, LLC

I've been very interested in the market since I got back into the violin several years ago and purchased a decent instrument for myself to play.
I've since had the opportunity to 'test drive' several violins ($15,000 and under)and bows - just for fun. It's been a wonderful opportunity for me.

There seems to be endless confusion over what instrument to buy at what stage of learning/performance. I think what isn't clear is the difference between a good performing violin and a good collectors violin. While they maybe one and the same, for most people they're two entirely different animals.

To a certain level I can appreciate all the different qualities different violins have to offer - but what I've also noticed in that in the $15,000 and under price range I get to experiment with, that price has remarkably little impact on the performance of the instrument. The last violin I played that gave me the 'wow' factor was a brand new French instrument (small shop) that retailed for only $1900...if I wasn't happy with my current (more expensive) instrument I would've snapped that one up! It had amazing playability.

What I still find strange is the insistance that certain violins, ie. Italian are superior to other violins, ie. Chinese, REGARDLESS of the individual maker. In this day and age of Globaization, an individual's name really means nothing at all.

The region aspect has also a lot to do with the "investment" issue.
A Russian fiddle, a Chinese fiddle, an African fiddle or Martian fiddle for example, will never command the same prices as Italian ones.

Like the Italians, old great French fiddles (such as Lupot, Vuillaume for example) have also shown a steady climb in their appreciation and demand as concert instruments and collectables.

Here is a very interesting article in Forbes magazine:
"Connoisseur's Guide
Most Expensive Musical Instruments
Maya Roney, 04.11.06 "

this is a cool website

With all due respect, these rules don't apply to all price ranges or all makers, and historical instrument market is different than contemporary market or student instrument market.

My comments included the words "in this range". Applying rules meant for instruments outside this range is unrealistic.

In the range being discussed, provenance really isn't a factor...

Jeffrey

What you are describing is speculation in the market.

I've found that, almost 100% of the time, players are more than satisfied if they set their priorities to find an instrument they enjoy playing and is appropriate for use, then check to ensure the price is "correct"... again "in this range".

In my opinion, speculation is for those who already have an instrument and/or understand the market... and in this range, results are not reliable (I don't waste my time on speculation in this range, if that tells you something). A reasonable, good sounding instrument will make a better artisic "return" (when considering how much all those lessons cost; the homework needed is practice) than a speculative purchase that may perform less well...

The safety net here, for the consumer, is the shop's policies and an appropriate initial cost... not what the fiddle will "do" on the market after the maker goes on to that bench in the sky. :-) Chances are, if the student is serious, this will not be the last fiddle they own... and they will be trading it in before any significant appreciation occurs. And what if the fiddle they buy out-performs another by, say, 20%. What kind of numbers are we really discussing? Would that really make a difference to you if you liked the one that only went up 10% in the same period? How 'bout if the one that simpy held it's value was a more appropriate fiddle for you?

If you're on the other side of this issue, I respect your opinion, of couse, but I do not agree with it entirely and would be cautious to offer it as advice to a student's parent (who most likely has little time to do homework on the market... and if they did have time, might only learn enough to be dangerous to themselves in the short time they'd have before the purchase).

I think when one is looking for a fiddle from 10k and up, one should do their homework.

For fiddles under 10k, just find the best sounding one. Bu then again it is always a gamble when time comes to upgarde..........
And I am sure you know how I feel about bows as well:)

Absolutely... to be honest, I kind of enjoy that we do. :-) Keeps me on my toes.

I think there is more than one way to skin a cat (as the old saying goes).

Remember, both of our viewpoints may have something to do with the fact that we are "part" of the trade. A person who is not must rely on us to re-sell in most cases.

So, I'd like to propose a little "what if" game for you. I'll provide the time frame and the initial investment, and the return on investment for the first set, You provide the return on investment for the second, OK?

Here goes:

First set:

Initial investment; $10K

Term: Purchase in '02. Held for 4 years (which is probably average for the fist full size fiddle, no?).

Items; Shan Jiang @ $5,000 (that was their price then) & a silver mounted J. J. Millant bow @ $5,000 (which you could find for that price in '02).

After sale gross return: $6,500 (which is what Shan's fiddles sell for now) & $7,000 (which would actually be a pretty decent buy on a Millant).

Costs: 20% (average sales commission in this industry)

Return: !0,800

ROI: 8% over 4 years.

Violin alone: Purchase 5K, sell 6.5K, return $5,200, ROI 4%.

Second set:

OK, do the same thing with a Tadioli (from your list). I believe his price in '02 was $9,500, correct (you can put the $500 in an imaginary savings account and include the return in your figure if you'd like)? I believe they sell for about $12K now.

(With my rough figuring, I came up with a net return of just over 1%, BTW)

If you think this particular set isn't a fair example, pick any maker from your list you wish... or extend the time frame by a few years.

In fact, there's two broad categories of reasons why Chinese instruments don't fetch the same prices as their Italian counterpart. One category is their objective quality, which is what you're championing (or so it seems to me) and what Gennady is not denying. The other is the general population's perceptions and prejudices of how other members of the general population will value the proposed investment. Gennady is addressing this point - what the market will bear. It's beside the point to be idealistic in the face of that argument. It's just Realpolitik. Or RealMarketik. As the case may be.

P.S. Emil, glad it sounds logical. I'm not championing Shan or anyone else, just taking a prompt from a VSA competition and assuming he must be pretty good, and then considering relative prices. That's all I'm doing. Sounds logical to me too :)

Anyway, as far as investment goes, something has to drive the price higher. What would it be in the case of Italians? No idea. In the case of Chinese it might be just the recognition of specifc undervalued makers and culling them out. Just guessing. Anyway he's undervalued and ready to pop as they say in investmentland. He doesn't have to win more competitions like his Italian colleagues.

I think an excellent Millant has come up much more than 7K.
His G/T for example is 15k and some finer examples in books are more. Silver/ebony in superb condition are going for much more than 7K.

As opposed to say William Salchow, who is of the same generation (and was considered one of the great American makers).

To give you another example, if one bought a Giuseppe Lucci in 1975 for 4K (from the maker), today you would have to add four zeros to that amount (no kidding). You know that is a fact.

Now as far as market history goes, we do not have to dig or go that far back to know, that there were many excellent makers.
In mid-1960's, makers such as W. Salchow, A. Schlieps, Anthony Wrona, Mario Frosali, Martin Beilke, were the Mohicans of their time. Anyone know of these names?
That is my point.
Where are they trading today?????????
But their contemporary like J.J. Millant is by far much more collectable and has increased in value and demand.

J.B. Vuillaume had some German makers working in his shop, are they commanding same prices as their French counterparts? ........No.

Sartory and Fetique had German apprentices as well, are their bows fetching the same as their masters or their French counterparts of the same generation?.....No

Tadioli actually has gone up in price quite a bit. In 2002 Luca Salvadori was around 10k, now he is more like at 18k.
Just call David Kerr to see where they are.

There is no question that there are trends, and people buy what is popular or what their teacher is pushing. Like it was with DeLay and JNL bows and Matsuda violins.
Now that trend has faded (for that combination).

But the reality is, that this argument has been ongoing for the last two hundred years, and one thing remains constant, people appreciate French Bows and Italian Violins the most.
And those are the instruments that become collectable.
Sorry, that is my point of view, and market history reflects that.

Perhaps in 2030, Martian fiddles will be in vogue, who knows but one thing for sure, people will still value & treasure their Italian fiddles and French Bows like they have done so since 1800's. And there is plenty of literature around including very old Strad issues from late 1800's where they discuss the same thing.

So Emil; Perceptions not withstanding, and objective judgements on the side, are you saying you'd take the 1% ROI over the 4%?

Let's not get this wrong... Once you pass a certain level, I think you'll find Gennady and I agree about origin and value. The question is: At what level? All I'm saying is 10K isn't it. Now if it's appropriate for a player to "invest" depends on some other things (for example; if they are a professional, there are advantages that are present that don't exist if they are not).

Once you hit the 10k level, people get a bit more fussy and are looking with an eye of some kind of return on their money.

Forty million dollars? I'm with you!

Actually, I threw the French bow into the works to illustrate that one can use remaining funds (by buying a less expensive fiddle) for other things. A great bow is a heck of a lot less money than a great fiddle of the same "class".

BTW; Good Gemunder violins usually sell for more than Bailly or Derazey instruments, but less than Pierre Sylvestre.... so I'm not completely with you on the Vuillaume workshop thing.

Becker was also an American maker in the '60s.

Also, my example used a "term", not an open end. I offerred to let you extend that term, but not back to the '60s. :-)

If we're sticking with terms, Sam Z's fiddles have out-performed any living Italian maker I can think of in the last 10 years... but maybe I'm forgetting someone... If this imbalance remains, only the future may tell (but I doubt it will).

Anyway, if we're going to play my game, we need to stick to the rules (term & budget). I was sticking at the 10K, not more. :-)

If you want to play a different game, you set the rules and I'll play along... but I'm sure we'll find ourselves more in a state of agreement. We'll need to invite Jim in to keep things interesting.

Back to the original poster; My advise was meant for Michelle, and for her situation... not for a pro who wants to speculate. When I work with a client, their situation dictates what I'll suggest, rather than an investment model. It was offered free, and she's free to take it or not.

Jeffrey

Now here, and in this range, we're pretty much in agreement. :-)

Also agreed.

All talk of buying contemporary makers is speculative. You don't know which ones will be valued at the top in 50 years. But since $8-10K is still significant value, you must make sure you're getting what you paid for in terms of authenticity and workmanship. Sound is subjective and will change on a new violin, and can be tweaked. Therefore at least with a contemporary maker, you can get authenticity. You don't know if the Collin Mezin for example is one made by the father, or the son, or the workshop [price varies greatly]. There is also the method violin building that was used, like Cremona school, or German school, etc. They used different methods, inside mold versus outside mold, and all sorts of details that differ. At least with a contemporary maker you can interview them, get assurance of authenticity (photos, certificates, signatures), and find out what their philosophy of making are. Here are some regulations for Cremona made violins.

http://www.cremonaliuteria.it/moduloeng.php?page=23

For older German or French violins who have not "made it", it's a mixed bag. You don't know if they were factory, or workshop, or whether the labels are authentic or not. Maybe that's why people are recommending contemporary makers at this range. It is too low for violins that have considered to be valuable for their age, yet high enough to get a benchmade authentic violin from a maker whose resume you can check out [list of awards, methods used, schools attended, who their teacher was, etc.].

Some of the maker's bios mentioned by Gennady appear here.

http://www.cremonaliuteria.it/liutaieng.php?page=9

P.S. and why do you say price isn't based on sound, but that the expensive ones sound better? Just say the expensive ones sound better or something. It doesn't make sense otherwise:))

PS: We rented a 7/8 size at that time.

As for older fiddles, at least the ones I own from early to mid 20th century have never been opened (top plate etc), and ofcourse never had any re-graduating done. They sound great. My P. Sgarabotto has a lot of wood, and yet it sounds superb.
The great Italians of the 17th century most of the time were looked after by the very best owners who took them to the very best shops of their time.
There are makers today who make the mistake of making thin plates, so the sound is more immediate and it sounds great for a couple of years, but in the long run these instruments die. They get fetigued etc. It is best when things are in balance. Thickness of plates in relation to sound etc.
You know, guitar players like violinists, are also on the look out for the very best old Les Paul or old Gibson etc.
By the way, if you are in Seattle October 20th, we (odeonquartet), are playing with Bill Frissel (thewell known Jazz Guitarist) at the Triple Door. It is an opening night concert of the Earshot Jazz Festival.

this is a cool website

Play for love.

I am the oldest of twelve children. That should explain the financial strain.

Things are relative aren't they?

and one more thing I forgot to mention.......sentimental value of an instrument has nothing to do with the actual sound nor its actual vaue.

A lot of great makers start out making instruments in the shop of an established maker, or by themselves. The price is irrelevant, try out the instrument and see what you think.

Cheers
Oliver

1) Do you absolutely LOVE the sound (because you'll have it for life, possibly)

2) Can you express yourself musically?

3) Is it in good condition - will you have to one day sell it and not get your money's worth, because it was not in tip top form when you bought it? Of course, old violin will have defects, but what is important is that these defects are repaired and repaired VERY well

4) Is the price right? Many dealers will inflate the prices and/or make you assume that you can't find anything better for less...Don't believe it. Bargain with them (reasonably) and see what you can get!

Good luck!
Daniel

At least in our case, after some research, I decided I didn't have the money yet to go for an older instrument of quality, so I gravitated to contemporary makers, and eventually to Shan Jiang... precisely because I was hoping that the persistent prejudice against Chinese makers would work in my favor from a price/quality standpoint. Investment value? It never occurred to me. I wanted a quality instrument for my daughter that wouldn't destroy me financially. Period. I was prepared to go to 10k if I had to (and even started eyeing 12k-14k fiddles that I really couldn't afford)....but, I didn't have to. The Shan Jiang that came our way was everything she needed, and more, and we were able to use the savings to purchase a bow by Ole Kanestrom that matched it extremely well (which I would have hesitated to do had I spent eveything on the violin). She, I -- and her teacher -- couldn't be happier with how things turned out.

I'm not saying you should necessarily go with the same maker I did (although he might be worth a try; if you'd like to know where I purchased mine, just send me an email), but you might want to expand your search -- as some have already suggested above -- beyond the three older fiddles that haven't inspired you to some contemporary makers, perhaps Chinese or Eastern European.

And then when you get that all squared away, you can launch yourself on the search for an appropriate bow.

It's amazing how preoccupying the search process is, but it's also fun. I hope it all works out to your satisfaction. I'm sure it will.

Dieudonne violins are usually a little more pricey, though it depends on whether it is his good personal work or one of his lesser "workshop" violins. But again, this is a rather high price to pay for one.

As for VanDerveken, I'm afraid I've never heard of him so can't comment.

Assuming you're in the US, it would be a good idea to go to a Tarisio sale and get a really good look at what it's possible to buy. Visit their website. I have just bought a nice modern Italian violin there for $2,500, and several decent modern Italians sold for less than the price you're proposing to pay, as well as semi-modern French. They also have separate sales of cheaper and "speculative" violins.

All the best.

anyone thinking of calling him should not hesitate. A nicer man is not to be found anywhere.

Mr. Bedford is right about Tarisio. I know someone who just bought a Mario Gadda for $5000, and says it doesn't sound too bad.

I'd never go to Tarisio without getting the help of a pro dealer though, because I don't know what I'm buying besides whether or not the instrument works for me.

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