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Bach Cello Suites for Violin

Life in general: Just doesn't sound quite the same.

From Lance McGee
Posted June 11, 2005 at 10:16 PM

So I've decided to try and tackle the six unaccompanied Bach suites for cello. Obviously the music I have is arranged for violin. The opening prelude to the first suite is no problem. But I'm having difficulty making the prelude of the Bach suite sound more.....cello like. I've been listening to a recording of Yo-Yo Ma playing this suite and he gives a real "lonesome" cello sound. I find that I'm having difficult trying to make my violin have that same lonesome sound in this piece. I just can't make it sound as soft and as light as he can. Any suggestions on how to get that real soft and lonesome sound. I think my violin has too bright of a tone to achieve that dark sound. Have any of you ever played this piece before arranged for violin? I really like the Partitas and Sonatas for the Violin. I can play many of those bits without a problem. However, with the cello suites it sounds to me like they should really be left for the cello. You just don't get the same quality of the piece on the violin. Also, as an example, the original key of the Suite 1 prelude is in G but when written for the violin it is in D. I think that altering the key of the music changes the sound quality of the piece. Do any of you know of any recordings of the cello suites played on violin?

From Lance McGee
Posted on June 11, 2005 at 12:39 PM

Oops in the opening I meant to say that I'm working on the Prelude from the Second suite which Yo-Yo Ma gives a "lonesome" sound. You should always proofread! :)

Lance

From Brian Foster
Posted on June 11, 2005 at 10:53 PM

I used to play these pieces a lot - arranged by Ebner published by Hug in Zuerich - then my son became good enough to play
some on the cello; I haven't been able to touch them since. They just don't sound right on the violin. Similarly, I was listening to a CD of a very good cellist playing an arrangement of a Kreisler piece for the cello - he could play it perfectly and technically it must have been extremely difficult - but musically it was a total disaster - you just can't play Kreisler on the cello - or the Bach cello suites on the violin.

From Scott Hawthorn
Posted on June 11, 2005 at 11:31 PM

I agree. They would lose all their "celliness."

From Enosh Kofler
Posted on June 12, 2005 at 12:30 AM

Hmm... maybe that's why Bach wrote them for cello. Just a thought.

From Nick Wong
Posted on June 12, 2005 at 01:51 AM

Perhaps you can play the suites on viola; although it's one octave higher then the written music, they are in the same keys.

From Mark Hunt
Posted on June 12, 2005 at 02:12 AM

Sounds quite nice on viola, that's really the only reason I got a viola.

From Tom Holzman
Posted on June 12, 2005 at 12:13 PM

I agree that they were clearly intended for cello and do not sound the same on violin. Nonetheless, we violinists can get much joy and improve our technique by playing them. Remember that the Werner Icking archive offers them for free in a violin transcription.

From jennifer steinfeldt warren
Posted on June 12, 2005 at 02:40 PM

Ever noticed that one of the Kreutzer etudes is remarkably similar to the prelude? Let see, number 13. I remember learning it for an audition in high school and after watching a video of Yo Yo, (or maybe it was Rostopovich, I can't remember), I figured out what it was supposed to sound like. Even though it is just an etude. Cello music on the violin...hm...like a violinist playing cello? No, I guess you can't equate the two...but the technique is different, so the pieces would be different to the ear, besides the obvious hz.
Sals,
JW

From Lance McGee
Posted on June 14, 2005 at 03:40 AM

I've ordered a copy of these Suites for Viola and I'm gonna try them out when I get them in. I actually tried playing the first suite on a cello at work and "front bowing" needs a lot of work. Lol. I've got great cello vibrato though. If only there were some way I could the cello on my shoulder with a really long bow. Yeah....that would just look dumb. Anyway, I've been working on these suites a lot more. It seems close to impossible to make the music move the way a cello can make them move. I'll keep working trying to get a "cello" sound out of my violin. Maybe I need some Larsen strings lol.

From Jim W. Miller
Posted on June 14, 2005 at 03:58 AM

The problem is from trying to make the violin sound cello-like. Make the pieces sound violin-like ;)

From Nick Wong
Posted on June 14, 2005 at 05:59 AM

In case anyone is curious, icking-music-archive.org provides violin and viola transcriptions of the cello suites for free.

From Mike Harris
Posted on June 14, 2005 at 05:26 PM

I agree that they don't work on violin--just too "munchiny." So far, I do think they work on viola...it's strange, since there's a full octave difference from cello to viola, and only a fifth from viola to violin. I don't think it has to do with keys. Go figure.

From Nick Wong
Posted on June 14, 2005 at 06:27 PM

From a perspective of a viola student, the cello suites definately work on the viola. And I really believe the difference of key is a huge factor. You don't see as much violists performaning the violin partitas & sonatas (read down a fifth) as violists performing the cello suites.

From ilya gringolts
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 09:03 AM

It's very unfortunate that so many people on this board miss the synthetic quality of these works (and Bach's works in general). We tend to ignore clues that Bach himself gave us by transcribing so much of his own music for other instruments. You needn't go too far - just take the g-minor Adagio and Fugue from the first solo violin sonata (Organ), Grave and Fugue from the second (harpsichord), Adagio from the third (harpsichord), e Major suite (lute and Cantata 29), his solo and duo concertos... In fact, there is no such thing as "cellism" or "violinism" that could be applied to Bach's string music, as the role of the instrument is quite insignificant. Just remember the assortment of continuo instruments you could choose from back then! We tend to forget about that wonderful open-mindedness, culmination of which was J.S.'s own Art of the Fugue (no instruments assigned), and which was lost with decline of Baroque. No wonder Brahms's clarinet sonatas don't work on viola (I hope I don't offend anyone's feelings here) - they sure possess many wonderful and exclusive woodwind qualities, that have disappeared in the process. The same could be said (although to a somewhat lesser degree) about Prokofiev flute sonata. Hell, even Schumann's cello concerto in Shostakovich arrangement for the violin loses immensely, and we are talking merely transposing it up an octave for another string instrument! The only successful post-Baroque examples of synthetic writing are, in my view, wonderful sets of pieces by Schumann - Fantasiestuecke, 3 romanzen, Maerchenbilder and Stuecke am Volkston. Otherwise, arrangements are doomed to never be the same...

From ilya gringolts
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 09:25 AM

Incidentally, I heard Gustav Leonhardt in recital some years ago, and he played Bach's D Major cello Sarabande on harpsichord...It was so hauntingly beautiful, I learned it myself, granted you don't need a fifth string for that one...

From Thomas McEvilley
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 09:31 AM

I agree with Ilya - very well put! As Szigeti remarked, these Suites are an excellent stepping stone for violinists aspiring to the Partitas & Sonatas.

From Tom Holzman
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 12:55 PM

Ilya's points are, as usual, very good. I would say that what makes the cello suites work best on cello for the most part is the interaction of the cello's resonance with the music. The violin, and to a lesser extent, the viola, simply lacks that resonance (although Szeryng comes as close as one can perhaps in his S&P recordings). Having said this, I think that a really good musician can create a moving performance of the suites on just about any instrument, simply because Bach is so deep and complex.

From ilya gringolts
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 01:14 PM

Tom, use baroque violin in a good room - you'll get all the resonance you wish for:)

From Tom Holzman
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 03:10 PM

Ilya -- did you use a baroque violin when you recorded the solo Bach?

From ilya gringolts
Posted on June 15, 2005 at 07:36 PM

No...I was young and stupid.

From Cornelia Zambila
Posted on June 16, 2005 at 08:52 PM

Imagine Gil Shaham playing them.

From Mendy Smith
Posted on June 18, 2005 at 06:34 AM

I've been playing the suites on both cello and viola (better on viola). The tone is good on both, some of the suites sound better (to my ears at least) on the viola better than the cello and visa versa. I must admit mostly it is due to skill difference on the 2 instruments. I can't even imagine what it would sound like on a violin - I think too much of the deep tones would be totally lost.

There are some pretty significant differences in the bowing and fingering between the viola and cello versions which make the same piece give a different 'feeling' to the piece. But in either, both are very technically challenging.

So, I'd say, try it on the violin. If it doesn't sound quite right, don't worry too much. It will develop some our your technical ability. And, it is Bach afterall.

From Jim W. Miller
Posted on June 18, 2005 at 09:05 AM

Bach did do some writing for specific instruments, taking advantage, or deferring to limitations. Imagine the S&P on cello, for instance. Or his trumpet parts. Or the S&P on a trumpet ;) But, I don't think it would be any more difficult to pull these off on violin than the S&P.

From Mattias Eklund
Posted on June 18, 2005 at 09:07 AM

Jim, the S&P has been recorded on cello, and several movments on the trumpet to!

The prelude of the 6'th suite sounds better on the violin than on the cello, in my taste, and that goes for many of the other suite-movments to. But tast differs.

From Jim W. Miller
Posted on June 18, 2005 at 09:32 AM

Mattias, actually it would surprise me more if they hadn't been, and somewhere there's a trumpet ensemble doing the fugues :)

From Mike Harris
Posted on June 21, 2005 at 08:04 PM

It's erroneous to assume that because someone doesn't believe the Bach cello sonatas work well on violin that they are unaware that many Bach (or other baroque composers) pieces work on other instruments...for example, I've heard many pieces successfully transcribed to guitar from keyboard, violin or cello. That doesn't mean I have to like the cello sonatas on violin. I think we should listen and judge each transcription on its own merits.

From ilya gringolts
Posted on June 22, 2005 at 11:29 AM

Mike - I didn't assume people were unaware of "hard evidence" as it were...It's just that many of us are so "sound-oriented", that we subconsciously associate music with a specific instrument, which is an association quite alien to baroque style. That is all I tried to say - obviously you are free to like/dislike what you will.

From Mike Harris
Posted on June 23, 2005 at 08:14 PM

Ilya,
thanks for the clarification--point taken. I hope I didn't sound too snippy.
BTW, I also heard Leonhardt playing Bach cello music (I think it was the 4th sonata) on harpsichord years ago in Fort Worth, Tx...that guy is a wonder to behold.

From Joseph Franke
Posted on June 24, 2005 at 02:24 PM

Err...from the talk about a 'lonesome' etc. sound, I infer that Yo-Yo Ma took a rather easy tempo. I've always felt something rather exuberant about ripping through the Prelude to the second suite at a quick tempo with little vibrato except on white notes and heavily accented beats. It almost becomes a folk dance (granted, that wasn't the function of Preludes for solo stringed instruments in Bach's time).
Other movements are, of course, taken at appropriate speed!
BTW, my teacher once played the prelude to the first cello suite on viola, and I was amazed at the expressive possibilities. Much less shrill and altogether warmer and deeper. You might want to think about trying it on viola.
Just a suggestion...

From PoE PoE
Posted on December 25, 2006 at 06:06 PM

Where can I find the violin pieces online?

From Neil Cameron
Posted on December 25, 2006 at 07:13 PM

Simply look up and if you make sure you look for the right nick then you can't go wong. ;) ;) <=== note HUGE hint.

Neil

From Tom Holzman
Posted on December 25, 2006 at 07:30 PM

Poe Poe - try the Werner Icking archive. There are links earlier in this thread.

From Jim Tsai
Posted on December 25, 2006 at 08:32 PM

the Bach Cello suites are the reason i started playing the viola, in addition to violin. the music probably doesn't require a specific instrument but i'm glad i started on the viola- it's a beautiful instrument. it is great to be able to play both, for developing as a musician and to fill in whenever a quartet is short a violist. some conservatory programs are requiring viola training if you're pursuing a diploma in violin.

From Jon O'Brien
Posted on December 27, 2006 at 02:40 AM

I started playing the cello suites on violin after reading one of Szigeti's books. I don't know if it would be a good idea for anyone to perform them -- some might not like the change in key, but you can't please everyone. The sixth suite is in the original key so that is a bonus. The effect on violin is different but very worthwhile. I enjoy the suites whether played on violin, or played by someone else on cello or viola.

Szigeti made a very interesting point in his book about the Bartok violin duets for developing violinists, and how they are virtually impossible to play without learning how to phrase intelligently with the bow. These cello suites, I think, have a similar effect.

From Hartmut Lindemann
Posted on February 13, 2009 at 11:32 AM

I totally agree with Mr. Gringolts's open minded view about playing Bach's music successfully on various instruments. As a violist however, I feel obliged, to correct his statement about the Brahms Clarinet Sonatas on viola. No. 2 in E flat sounds in fact great on viola, if the violist uses the clarinet part and not Brahm's own transcription. In a letter to Joachim, Brahms himself wrote, that he considered his arrangement for viola 'clumsy and unsatisfactory'. No. 1 in F minor might possibly be more suitable for clarinet. Returning to the Bach Cello Suites. My advice :

First reconsider the speed for the Preludes! For example, why should the tempo for the Prelude in the C major Cello Suite be so much slower, than for the E- major violin Partita? The musical material doesn't suggest it. Did the common practice only evolve, because it was considered impractical to play it in a more fluent speed on the cello? So, lets 'rethink all these cello traditions' when you play the works on violin.

From Jerald Archer
Posted on February 14, 2009 at 12:20 AM

Don't sell yourself short just because you are unable to achieve the desired texture and sound that your violin, being a violin, is naturally incapable of. Think more in terms of the timbre of the violin and the technique involved, what can be done and go for it. The melodies and harmonies fall amazingly easy into place in the Bach solo 'cello works when they are played on a violin. I have found the Icking Archive editon the best I have seen and very useful in it's fingering and bowing markings.

Personally, I enjoy using a 5 string and use the lower range, which will not sound too low, and then I use a recording program that has a good ability to take the violin sound down an octave. In the end, everyone who has heard them think it is a cello playing! In a live situation, one would simply use a good electric violin and a quality octave divider effects unit that is capable of polyphonic performance. Obviously, I have to think in the manner also of how a ' cellist would play, concerning technique and bowing. As for the "lonesome" sound that you refer to, that is an reverb effect, either natural or electronically produced (on stage or the studio), that gives the piece it's character and colour. This can be overdone at times, but it is a common practice for any studio to sweeten up the final "dry" mix with some sort of equalization or reverb. Studios are very notorious for pasting parts that require repeats, as this save time (and time is money) in the studio. If you actually heard them live in your living room, you might be disenchanted as to the dryness, and sometimes lack of precise intonation, that they might produce. A recording session can also fix slight intonation problems, as well.Believe it or not, it is done more than one might even imagine or consider, both in the closed studio and on the public stage. Technology is amazing!

From Andres Sender
Posted on February 14, 2009 at 04:23 AM

Technology is indeed amaaaazing! Here we are continuing a conversation which started three and a half years ago! 8-o ;-)

From Jerald Archer
Posted on February 14, 2009 at 01:07 PM

I was actually refering to the technology practices of the recording industry itself, which could entail a discussion in itself, but seems beyond the scope of this site and the interest of only a few members. I did not realize that there was an expiration date on any past information, especially for those new members to the site. Your comment makes me wonder then if the discussion forums have nothing new to discuss and, in a sense, have become a little stale. In my observation, I have noticed that either only really controversial or insanely pithy information seem to get the most attention. But, this is the way of the world, is it not? It would seem, that the best information data comes from violin/music teachers who can share their views and techniques of teaching and playing. Professional violinists and luthiers are shy to give up "too much" information, and for good reasons. Additionally, other features (such as an archived discussion board) makes the site the best violin teaching, practice and performance research site I have seen online to date. Perhaps your comment may stimulate more new discussions on an art-form that is really not that new, but is open to great considerations of it's future state.

From Benjamin K
Posted on February 14, 2009 at 05:24 PM

Jerald, I don't think Andres was poking fun at you for posting to an old thread, instead I venture a guess that it has more to do with the way you posted, e.g. directly addressing the original poster and giving him advice years after he asked his question. For all we know, that person may not even be reading this site anymore. At the very least we might conclude that if he has not found any answers in all these years, he is rather unlikely to still be pondering the question. It does indeed seem a little funny to give him advice now.

From Jerald Archer
Posted on February 14, 2009 at 10:27 PM

I did not feel that personally he was, I guess I was more concerned that he felt any information that is not new, may be useless, which is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. It is one of the worst attitudes I see in many students today, believe it or not! I do see a great humor in the whole thing now that you made the point you have, although I must stress that when I do post, it is hopefully for the educational benifit of all, and not just the original poster. No offense has been taken, and I will make sure, in the future, to check the posts date and level of current interest that concerned with the subject at hand. All information is good information, and ca be used someway by someone, but it helps the most when it can be used by everyone, now or later. In the future, I shall make it a practice to check the date of the original post, thus saving myself some avoidable embarassment (which I know others have experienced here, as well). Additionally, it may help to end the thread after a certain time, as well as after a certain number of posts, which I believe is 100.

From Andres Sender
Posted on February 15, 2009 at 01:13 AM

Jerald, within my areas of interest I am very fond of old information, as an accidental byproduct of my fascination for true information whatever its age.

My post was not an attempt to tell anyone what to do, it was merely a celebration of this particular instance of a forum phenomenon which is common and harmless, as are many innocent errors.

I make my share of errors, so don't imagine I am shaking a stick at you. ;-)

From Benjamin K
Posted on February 15, 2009 at 04:11 AM

Jerald, I don't think there is anything wrong reviving an old thread, at least not if new posts to such a thread say something that none of the existing posts (including the ones that are hidden) have said before. I have seen such revival posts on this site by people who started their posts with something like "I realise this is an old thread but ...". It seems to me that this is a good practise. Anyway, you may want to take some comfort in the fact that you weren't actually the one who revived this thread, it was the guy posting before you ;-)

From Mike Easley
Posted on April 25, 2009 at 08:11 PM

I enjoy playing the 1st and 6th suites on violin. I think that the 2nd and 5th work a lot better on viola. The edition I use for the 6th suite is a transcription of the viola version in G, so in the violin arrangement it's back to the original D. Is there any recording of the suites on violin?

From Alayna Faulkenberg
Posted on April 25, 2009 at 10:27 PM

I guess that with a dark enough violin you might be able to pull of the melancholic EMO cello thing. Personally I would leave that turf to the cellos and basses although I did recently pick up a couple of the minuets that a bass player friend is learning just because I was curious (I played them straight off the cello book just up a couple octaves).

To pull if off I might suggest keeping the vibrato under control and using a light fast bow for the piano sections to keep the lines really flowing. If all else fails you could try out a cello. :) Good Luck.

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