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Please, ideas how to learn alto clef for violinist......

From carlos tome
Posted February 7, 2005 at 05:25 AM

Take what is written in the alto clef, imagine it written down a line/space, then imagine a treble clef instead of an alto clef, and play it from this point of reference just as you would on the violin (same strings, fingerings).

Hope this helps.

This looks really confusing, Juergen - I think I'm understanding this differently than what you seem to be saying??? I mean G major in the alto clef would have one sharp in the key signature which would be F# just like it does in the treble (and bass, and tenor) clefs. If an accidental in the form of a natural sign (the name ofthe sign that cancels out a previous sharp or flat) on the line or space of the F, then that F# becomes an F regardless of the clef you are in. You are cancelling a sharp: sharps make you go a semitone up, so a natural brings it down again. There would be no Bb in G major on the alto clef. It also has an F#. On the other hand if there is a flat in the key signature, then your natural sign will tell you to play a semitone higher than what you have to play - in your example the Bb becomes B. But that is so regardless of which clef you are using.

I found the easiest way to fix the names of the notes as they occur on the alto clef if you get lost, is to remember that the middle arm of that backwards looking round E points directly at the C. So you know where C is. ... so if you have forgotten your notes or haven't memorized your lines and spaces that can help you find your place again.

Isn't it a case of memorizing the names on the lines and spaces and then using them as much as possible (practising) until they're firmly in the mind, like any other clef? I would think that "translating" by relating to another clef by thinking "one note up" would lead to confusion. Or?

I think that people going back and forth from viola to violin are still luckier than winds instruments transposing a fourth which I've always found a bit mind boggling unless the music has actually been transposed to fit the instrument, in which case it's a piece of cake. Pity the poor bassoonist who is constantly shifting his attention between bass, alto, and treble clef, sometimes all in the same line of music. (Do cellists have to do that too?)

Learning the notes was no problem at all. I know what they are and where they are.

But when I try to play to speed - I can't. I'm so slow I frustrate myself.

If anyone has any tips on how to get it to speed, I'd really appreciate it.

(BTW - learning the bass clef was no problem at all - but maybe that's because it was on the piano?).

For me, I had to have a crash course in alto clef my junior year of college, when I was offered a scholarship to stay and play viola in the orchestra for the summer festival. The first piece on the first program was Prokofiev _Classical_. So in order to learn it, I decided to transpose the entire part into treble clef and do my best to memorize it. But I found that in doing the transposition and having to really look at the notes and write them down again, I ended up learning the clef very quickly. Since then, I've met several violinists who have learned the clef the same way. Maybe there's something to all those written theory exercises after all...

- Wenhao Sun

When the staff was first used, there was 11 lines. This was called the grand stave. The middle line was the note we call C (hence "Middle C"). In medieval music, this would be noted by a special figure, a line with two squares on the right (kinda like a c). THere was also an F clef, which was 3 squares, two on the right, and one on the left splitting the two. Monks could then know where on the grand stave they were looking at by which line had C or F (the staves used only had the lines neccessary - 1, 2, 3 or 4, rarely 5).

When the Baroque period came around, these clefs began to develop, and a new one was formed, the G clef. The clefs that we use today are just artistic variations on the letters of the notes they symbolise. The treble clef (looks like a g to me), the Bass clef (a bit harder, but possible) and the C clef (kinda looks like a K, but there's actually a C between the line).

Why is this important? Because these clefs only ever symbolise one note: the C clef always shows Middle C. The G clef always shows G above middle C. The F clef shows F Below middle C. That's all you need to know. Therefore, if you learn to read C clef, instead of alto, then you will be able to read Alto, Mezzo, Soprano, Tenor, Baritone; any of the 12 clefs. Much simpler than taking a year to learn each one...

Think of the middle line as Middle C (like previously posted). Imagine the Grand Staff (like a piano), and orient yourself in relation to it. What I mean is, the top two lines of Alto clef are the same pitches as the lower two lines of treble clef. And the lower two lines of alto clef are the same as the top two lines of the bass clef. And you have middle C in between the two.

So, in reality, the alto clef is like a composite staff right in the middle of the grand staff.

Hope it helps. It helped me. =)

Preston

Afterthought:

I really sounded like a music nerd just now didn't I? Meh, I'm OK with that.

FMF

Picturing the staff as being the link between the treble & bass sounds very helpful, but it’s been ages since I played piano so I’ve got treble clef myopia.

I didn’t get the third position trick until I actually tried reading (& air-fingering) a viola part, but I’m trying to stick with memorizing the open string notes & work from there. It also helps that the bottom 4 lines of the staff (from bottom to top) are F-A-C-E

I go with the memorizing open strings route. I've done that for violin, cello and viola, in that order. Out of practicality, I worry first about where the notes are on the instrument at hand, and only then do I worry about the name of the note. I find that by doing so, I skip a translation step. Of course, on instruments where you often have to play in different clefs (viola, cello) you'll have to figure out where the strings are in each clef.

Yes, I know, I've just tried to loosen up a bit there, since I do not at all understand what one should do differently from learning the first clef when learning the second (or third) one.

Plus only a very few violinists will make a living on performing solo works alone, they might actually be forced to play with piano. And there might actually be a phrase in the piano score in bass clef important for understanding how to make music together. And a well prepared violinist should be able to read (or even play on the piano) such phrase before meeting the pianist at first rehearsal.

So why is it any different to learn alto clef from treble or bass ones? And when studying bass clef scores in which "position" on the violin or the viola should one learn to play it??? What has music reading in any clef to do with "positions"?

So I tried just to express my astonishment about the "how to learn alto clef" question; I felt like someone is pulling my leg.

The question: "How to learn a clef?" is a very valid one. "How to learn the alto clef?" sounds like a joke - and not even a very musical one - to me.

FMF

Persevere ...

Just as a note, I tend to find it easier, instead of trying to read 'up a line', 'across three spaces' and blah, it's easier to start from scratch and look at the clef from the perspective of how it relates to the instrument's open strings, fingerings in first position, and build it from there.

It saves brain work, and tells the brain that you're trying to learn something new, not relearn something old.

While at college I did some tours with a dance company, involving Kreutzer Sonata 1st mvt on violin and Britten Lachrymae on viola.  Though studying violin, the viola part was no trouble as I'd been thrown in at the deep end by my dad as a young teenager to play in the local youth orchestra.

But my predecessor on the tours, though his dad had been a professional violist himself and whose instrument he borrowed, didn't find it quite so easy - he'd written out the whole part as though played on the violin.

Now I'm in the opposite camp - I just downloaded the Wieniawski Etudes-Caprices and am looking for a violist who can play the underneath violin parts, maybe I should post a similar topic on a viola forum!

When I first started to learn cello, I took one of the Bach Suites and completely transcribed it to alto clef (violist from the get-go) by hand.  By the time I was done, bass clef was pretty firm in my mind.  (I didn't play the piece in alto clef on the cello).   

When I started learning treble clef for viola, I chose a simple piece that I could play from memory that was written in treble clef.  I think it was Fur Elise.  That helped me be able to make the associate with the sound to the note as printed much easier.

To me, playing viola means being able to sight read alto clef.  Well, I don't consider that I do that well at all. I first played viola 35 years ago (in an orchestra performance) and in the following 30 years I performed on viola about 7 times and accumulated a lifetime total of about 70 hours playing time. The time gaps between viola performances were so great that i had to relearn each time - and it seems to get harder as the brain ages. So I strongly recommend that violinists learn to play viola and to read alto clef well when they are young. (I believe conservatories require violinists spend a semester on viola - is that right?)

The basic approach to reading the alto clef fingerings is that you read viola 1st position as  if it were violin 3rd position and the viola 3rd position as if it were violin 1st position one string higher. With any mental flexibility, you should be reading it as viola alto clef within an hour. Even I (with this aged brain) can think viola/alto clef notation with the proper fingerings just sitting here without any reference; I got this way after about the 5th performance. I think the hardest problem is thinking sharps and flats in the proper places, so it is worth spending some minutes thinking about that - before you start to play a piece (if you have time).

To those who are familiar with the Suzuki violin books, I suggest you buy the Suzuki viola books to read through (the fingerings on the same pieces are the same as in the violin books).  I did that for my 5th or 6th viola performance preparation; I bought and read through viola books 4 through 7.

I recommend doing this viola thing at a young age when the mind is agile and retains well what it learns. I started cello at age 14, after 10 years of violin and learned to read bass clef in an hour or so after having played some treble clef stuff from my violin music. Now the position of my left hand determines which instrument I read music for and I'm equally at home with the violin's single clef as with the 3 (actually 4) clefs that show up in cello music.  I can no longer read and play violin music while my violin is held in cello position, although I could when I was about age 15 - 25. (Unfortunately, I still would have to think to interpret alto clef on a cello, but only string-quartet coaches might have to do that).

I do find that I run into a problem when playing viola music for more than an hour; at that point my mind wants to revert to violin and treble clef. I suspect every violinist who adds occasional and rare viola playing will have some sort of mental block from time to time.

Andy

A few months back i had to learn a viola part in alto clef for violin and  its not worth the effort.  I was very slow when it came time to perfrom i felt my execution was  "Herky jerky " ...  if your only going to play a few bars  on rare ocassions just transpose what's needed  into treble.

I think when you are familiar with a clef and are sightreading, you are not really thinking about what notes you are playing (even though you might be aware of it), but thinking more about the finger patterns. To this end, I find it helpful to remind myself that in the alto clef all the open strings are on the lines in the stave, in 1st position the 1st fingers are in the spaces, 2nds on the lines, 3rd in the spaces and 4ths on the lines. That way you're translating the notes on the music straight away to the relevant fingers, which I found quicker than working out what notes I'm playing, and then working out which finger to use.

Neil - you got it backwards.  The open strings are in the spaces, not on the lines.

You're absolutely right Mendy, I really should try and type a bit slower!

I've just ordered From Violin to Viola, a book which I hope will take the pain out of the process. (Funny this didn't post first time)

Neil's approach might be useful for a start but is bad for a long term.Assigning  a note, to a sound  then to a finger may lead to  stereotype that impairs  flexibilty  especially when frequent changes of clefs.

At any time you must know what note you have to play  with any finger.

I appraise the solfeggio to start viola or cello. A small boool is used in france since three generations to learn clef named "MANUEL PRATIQUE POUR L'ETUDE DES CLES by Georges DANDELOT

The general idea is to start with reference notes C3,G3 (line) and C4,G4 (space) for treeble clef, then add a note above ,a note below the reference note then a third above or below. reference note a marked differently for a start then marked as the others

Spend 5 or 10 minutes reading alto clef every day.

If you know keyboard, read it on the keyboard  as well well as on the viola.

Many viola parts don't actually go below the low "G" of the violin.  Practice playing those parts on violin as well so that you can do that in a pinch.  

Spend extra time on the notes above and below the staff, you'll probably need to.

Getting reference notes, learning middle C, and immersing yourself are all frequent pieces of advice that I think are essential to learning a new clef on any instrument.

I learned viola and alto clef by simply being handed a viola. "Here's middle C on the staff, here's middle C on the instrument...GO" was the extent of any directions from my high school teacher...immediately following that, I sight read the Mozart Eine Kleine SQ4 on viola with other players. I couldn't go slowly, I had to be immersed and keep up with everyone.

Did I play wrong notes?  Heck yes. Did I get a little frustrated? Yeah, but was able to laugh it off. At least I got most of the rhythms correct :)

It was great because he forced me to learn on the spot and so many things happened in my brain (sight reading, learning an instrument, learning a clef, etc.) that I remember and have helped me to learn other instruments to this day. Things had to click!

Eventually I used the open strings as reference (or as I like to call them, "anchor") notes, because it gave me a wider range of reference than just the middle C...so 5 anchor notes to start with including middle C.

I learned in highschool when our theory teacher would make us perform "parlando" solfege in virtually all clefs.

Basically what you do is sight sing but without singing actual pitches, just recite the names of the notes.

Find yourself some viola music and try this. It might help you. I hope it does :-)

How about a campaign to banish Alto Clef completely, and replace it with the Mezzo Clef.  That way (apart from key sigs) you can pretend it is a violin in treble clef and away you go.  It would also get over that crazy habit of putting high passages in treble clef.  

I have no idea why this is not done...(unless it is a plot by viola players to try and stop violinists from taking over their world)

BW

Jx

Curses!  We've been discovered!  Violists abort mission!

 Practice. I'm studying it right now so that I can be well versed in music theory. The only thing I can do is get music and practice reading it like a book. It's how everyone learns to read words, same principle should apply to music.

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