 |
News by E-mail |
|
|
Faking In OrchestasOrchestra: Seems like conductors take everything impossibly fast. Do they fake in the berlin phil orchestra, or does everyone know how to play their music?From tia tshibangu I fake alot in orchestral performances because i feel that conductors take the music at horrific speeds. I can't play the really difficult passages in orchestral repertoire even though i do practise them. I don't wanna look clueless on stage so i just fake a hell of alot. I've found out from many people that they do the same. Would they do something like that in the berlin phil orchestra or does everyone know how to play their music?
From Chris Howard
everyone fakes, including major orchestras. they just do professional faking, like bowings not matching and stuff.
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 02:43 AM From Jen Horne
You just have to push yourself to do the best you can...and in the parts you truely can't play, well, remain calm and move your fingers, uh, and make sure your bow is moving in the right direction...whatever you do, do NOT make eye contact with the conductor...you will get the evil eye!!! (I've learned my lesson well...)Posted on April 18, 2004 at 04:00 AM :P I'm sure everyone fakes at SOME point... From Will Haapaniemi
Just hope that SOMEBODY can play it even while you can't ;)
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 05:05 AM From Dumitru Lazarescu
Faking while performing is an art. I mean faking well. However, there are many passages that can be played at least 80% correctly, leaving the rest of the 20% to the art of faking. For example, you have a difficult run, you might miss one or two notes. While you miss them you don't stop. Nobody but you knows about this, so it is an artful faking. Sometimes there are impossible jumps from one string to another while shifting, mostly on pieces that have been composed on a piano. With a little 'help' we make these work as well. The 'help' could be playing a note one octave higher or lower to make the string changes and/or shift easier to attain. There are many other techniques that make our lives easier when performing in an orchestra, perhaps that should be left for discussion on another thread...
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 05:53 AM From Carl Fulbrook
Some passages really do not need to be played accurately. There are passages in the last movement of Bartok's Concerto for orchestra (for example) that are merely for effect. Also, some of the in Prokofiev's March from The Love of Three Oranges Suite are marked 'con effetto' - it's just an effect.Posted on April 18, 2004 at 07:01 AM However, if the passage is exposed and it seems like a tune, you really have to know the notes. Practise slowly with a metronome and then build it up. Most importantly, relax: hard passages with be less of of a problem. Carl. From Thomas McEvilley
It's not always neccessary to play all of the notes- just all of the important ones. However - if you make a habit of faking and don't push yourself to do your best,you'll be on a downward spiral.
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 07:45 AM From Gregory Lee
Another fakable passage would be the last two pages of Bartok Concerto for orchestra.
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 08:03 AM From Emily Grossman
If you are about to commit fudgery, do it quietly, and with rhythmic accuracy. You have to stick tight with the group when they pause for a rest, or you will be discovered.
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 09:03 AM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on April 18, 2004 at 10:49 AM after being inspired by the interesting input to study the score and work on the notes of Schumann"s 2nd symphony I was saddeend to see it diappear off the intellectual radar so I am sneaking it back in here. After all, it is just the kind of thing that fudging is made for- not! I found it to be perfectly playable with accuracy up to mm138 then it turns into a pain in the bum for me at 144. I wonder if this is some kind of physiological watershed for violinists. Could this be why the arch fiend Sevcik stipulated that tempo fairly frequently in his school of bowing? I then bought a fine recording of the work with the Cleveland and Dohnanyi whihc plays an elegant and crystal clear version that rarely make sit above mm 132 which is bloody conformtable a sfar as I am concerned. On the cover is a rather grim faced Dohnyani glaring to his immediate left. Presumably he is pissed at the first violin section for refusing to go any faster. Arnold, aren't you glad you formed a quartet? Cheers, Buri From Kelsey Z.
For me I always try to get a passage that is already going to be fast, faster then what I think it should be, so that there aren't any suprises. That doesn't always work, but then if I discover that it's going to be even faster or harder then I expected I take those little sections and work them over with a metronome until I feel confident in my ability to play them. Of course everyone fakes it at some point!
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 03:36 PM From tia tshibangu
Well in everyone fakes at some point what makes a good orchestra stand out from the other because imagine if everyone faked how terrible the orchestra would be. I mean do the leaders actually play everything?
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 04:10 PM From Tommy Atkinson
Think of it this way. The audition requirements for a major symphony orchestra are (usually) 2 concerti, a romantic and a mozart, and some of the hardest orchestral excerpts out there. If you can play all that better than everyone else who is auditioning, there's probably a good chance that you're not going to be faking a heck of a lot. That and most good orchestral players are such experienced and fluent readers that even at sight they get almost all the notes.
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 04:51 PM From Kelsey Z.
The leaders most of the time play everything from my experience, or are at least aware as the where things are heading and good at keeping a section on track even if they themselves are having a bit of trouble with their part.
Posted on April 18, 2004 at 06:36 PM From Michael Schallock
Also remember that you can only read music up to a certain speed; after that it MUST be memorized. I know what Stephen is talking about when things work to a certain speed then suddenly you "hit the wall" It may be simply physiological reaction time but mostly I have found it to be not quite really knowing the passage. By the time you read the notes, process the information, then get around to actually moving your fingers and bow it is just all over.Posted on April 18, 2004 at 10:18 PM I think "faking" is just playing as well as you can under the circumstances, as one very well known cellist once told me. There just isn't enough time to completely learn all the orchestral stuff we have to play. So we do the best we can. From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on April 19, 2004 at 02:03 AM when you look at what the orchestral repertoire is about and the limitations of time it is clear that there are going to be levels of precision which decline from the polished performances of a soloist who has been playing the s me limited repertoire ad naseaum for years and years. Playing in a top orchestra demands an incredible level of virtuosity. In the end I think it boils down to two related things- experience and recognition of patterns. That is, once you have experienced a great deal of orchestral repertoire there is a deree of anticipation or recognition of pattern that allows the player be relaxed which in turn allows for more success which in turn builds more relaxed ability and so on. I sat in a pit with one of Englands most experienced professionals (John Ludlow) and we had a fiendish opera score dropped in front of us. his hand s looked like whippe dcream as he buzzed nochalantly up and down the violin. For the novice, it is vital to have technical patterns in the hands to cope with orchestra. So, mastery of a scale systen such as the Flesch is crucial. Then the second support system is learning the even numbered position better than the od d ones, preferably through Sevcik. The constant study and revision of these psoitions gives enormous technical reserves for dealing with the terror of sightreading a page of oversexed ants hyped up on prune juice. When one has integrate d these patterns one becomes free to absorb other data which helps you survive. I was going to stick this in my last post about the Schumann but forgot.... that is, in very technical passages it is -very helpful- to keep the harmony strongly in mind. This is a crucial guide thta is often forgotten. In the case of the Schuman scherzo, it is really helpful to know the score and listen to the sustained chord sin the brass and woodwind, to try and develop those sounds in your inner ear while working on the nuts and bolts of the notes.... Cheers, Buri From Ben Clapton
I think it would also have to do a certain extent with you rexperience. EG Youth orchestras would do a fair bit of faking (i know) during very difficult bits that professional orchestras would find a breeze. Why? Because the players in the youth orchestra are playing it for the first time, where as in professional orchestras, they have played that piece in a youth orchestra themselves, and played it probably a few times in different orchestras. Posted on April 19, 2004 at 10:45 AM I'm in a youth orchestra, and I know there are parts that I can't get, and I fake them as best i can. But I make sure that I always go over the parts that I can't get as much (if not more so) than the parts i can get. Even if I don't get them up to speed by performance, I want to get it up to at least 80% concert speed, because that way if i need to play it again some time, I know that most of the work is already done Memory is an amazing tool. If you can work on memorizing the works that you are doing, a) it will make it easier to play the difficult parts, and b) the memory should remain if you are playing it again in the future Ben From Matt S.
Haha, there are a lot of fakers in my orchestra. However, chairs 1-10 in the frist violins have things pretty much under control. We played Brahms Academic Festival Overture, and I have one thing to say...The last half of the page is incredibly difficult. However, the winds cover up the mightly-hard thirty-second note passage that lasts for about a minute and a half. It doesn't help you play it at 80 in cut time :(
Posted on April 22, 2004 at 11:59 PM From Brian Bak
Matt, that is one great piece. It's in a class by itself. The "tragic" overture just sounds like the symphonies, the the academic overture is more original.
Posted on April 23, 2004 at 12:36 AM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on April 23, 2004 at 02:45 AM agree with you completely brian. I finf the TO rather dull in comparison with AO, Cheers, Buri From Matt S.
Gotta love the 'chug-the-mug' theme that the bassons get at animato. I think it's funny that Brahms put a 'secular' pub theme that was composed for when he was to recieve an honorary doctoral degree from Oxford. Hence, Academic... Got to love Brahm's sense of humor. :)Posted on April 23, 2004 at 03:30 AM -Matt From Ben Clapton
WE're doing the Academic Overture atm in our youth orchestra, and frankly, i don't really find the section you're talking about all that hard (then again, i am second violin so it may be easier, i'm not sure), but my hard bit is (in our editions) rehearsal mark "K" where we have semiquaver arpeggios - a rather difficult passage that most of the violins fake at concert speed. Luckily it's just effect thoughPosted on April 23, 2004 at 09:26 AM Ben From Chris Magistrado
I'm glad I'm not the only one "faking" it. Although, I'm not sure I like the term, "faking." Rather to quote my director, "just play the notes you know." So, if I encounter a difficult phrase where I can't contribute to the section, 2nd violins, then I play what I can, keeping strict to rhythm (most important in section playing). But, this is just a local college orchestra. Regarding the original post, anybody playing in a coummunity or city orchestra that doesn't play the music as written?
Posted on April 23, 2004 at 04:00 PM From Christina C.
Years ago there was a discussion on another board in which a professional violist playing in a professional symphony mentioned faking some spots (not playing every single note) in the Barber Violin Concerto
Posted on April 23, 2004 at 04:55 PM From Matt S.
Re: BenPosted on April 23, 2004 at 08:33 PM Yes the first violin part is much more difficult than the second violin part. Ex. The first part covers a four-octave G scale. Pretty much this section covers the whole range of the violin except harmonics, lol. The tremolo passage you speak of was our first test, labed K. It is not difficult at all, you just have to know your half-steps and half-steps that high, feel like fourth-steps and whole steps, half-steps, etc. etc. I actually believe it's harder getting into the section rather than being in the section. However, the Maestoso section is definately harder. From Matt S.
Check this out, my orchestra playing this is not a state orchestra or a youth orchestra. It's actually our high school orchestra. You can take a look at the New York Philharmonic's repetoire and look at ours, and they're identical. Russian Easter Overture, Academic Festival Overture, March Slav, Poet and Peasant Overture, Light Cavalry, Russlan and Lyudmilla, Baccanale, etc. and the list goes on and on. I can vouch for it because when we visited Carnegie Hall, and there was the list of concert pieces, especially our front chairs freaked out because it was like exactly what we had played. People compare our orchestra to the Kansas City Symphony. I'm kind of proud of that. :)
Posted on April 23, 2004 at 08:38 PM From Marcianne O'Day
Good golly, I'm glad I'm not alone. This is an encouraging thread.Posted on April 24, 2004 at 02:51 AM Wednesday I was in a workshop lead by Luis Haza from the National Symphony Orchestra and he took the piece so fast that I couldn't keep up at all. I did my best but I hated that I'm not as fast as I'd like to be. It was a motivating experience. I absolutely hate "faking" but at the same time I fear that if I were to drop out completely it would be too distracting. Also I like Chris' suggestion about calling it From Daniel Shih
Well, even the best fake--my youth symphony was having a sectional a month or two ago with David Taylor, assistant concertmaster of the Chicago Symphony. We were working on the last page of the Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony, where there are a flurry strange notes (32nds?). Regardless, he said that nobody ever actually played those notes, it's just important to begin the run in tune, fake your way up, and end the run in tune. Of course, the CSO players do all of that with gorgeous tone and are ridiculously good at it. My conductor, who had been telling us for weeks to practice that passage and stop faking it, just kind of buried his head in his hands when he heard those words coming out of David Taylor's mouth...
Posted on April 24, 2004 at 04:12 AM From Matt S.
Well, number one. GET THE RHYTHM. That is key, without that, the orchestra falls apart. Especially, if the listening that is supposed to be going on (ie. know what your cellos, seconds or first, and winds are doings) does go on. Secondly, it's not all that bad if you can only play all the notes of a passage, like Mr. Taylor said. Just make sure you start right and end right. I might add, if you can hit say notes 1 and 3 of each four in a thirty-second note passage then you're getting there!
Posted on April 25, 2004 at 06:45 PM From tia tshibangu
Speaking for orchestras. I'm obsessed with my technique at the moment and was wondering if orchestral playing damages your technique. I know my violin teacher gets really mad when i mention that i'm playing in an orchestra.
Posted on May 27, 2004 at 11:00 AM From Laurie Niles
It just depends on if you want technique or if you want to be a musician. It's true that you can't hear yourself as well while playing in an orchestra, so if you are inclined to sloppiness you can develop bad habits. If you want to be a musician, though, orchestra playing teaches you a great deal about fitting things together, style and genre, rhythm and reading. I strongly urge my students to participate in orchestra if they can.
Posted on May 27, 2004 at 02:21 PM From Fernando Flores
No matter who you are, or what orchestra you are in, people are always faking passages to a certain degree.
Posted on May 27, 2004 at 11:24 PM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on May 27, 2004 at 11:43 PM Tia, if you are in the middle of resolving a specific tehcnical problem , particulalry with bowing, then orchestra playin cna get in the way. You have to weigh up the benifits and disatvantages with help from your teacher. At a later stage you either leanr to get around your probelms , which is an education in itself, or find a different profession. being obsessed with tehcnique is not healthy at any stage, Cheers, Buri From One-Sim Lam
Good faking tips:Posted on May 29, 2004 at 05:24 PM 1)move your bow in teh same direction as everyone else 2)press random fingers down 3)put on a passionate face 4)Play the very last note at the right time. 5)If a hard chord comes up pick a random note and play it Submitted by One-Sim who uses them very frequently. But I advise you not to use these unless you really can't play parts of the piece.:P One-Sim From Carl Fulbrook
Oh, and if you make a really ugly noise in the middle of a silence, look angrily at your desk partner.Posted on May 29, 2004 at 09:36 PM Carl. From James Keene
You know, violinists can't really get away with faking in orchestras when the conductor is a violinist. Any violinist can easily see it when another one is faking. (Hopefully the violinist-conductor will be sympathetic and remember all the times he/she committed the same crime!)
Posted on May 30, 2004 at 03:57 PM From Susan D
Ha, perhaps if I believed everyone fakes I wouldn't have given up orchestral playing. After not coping with all of the Mendelssohn 3rd Symphony, I was totally discouraged and gave up orchestras. At first rehearsal all the other violinists said things like "oh, haven't seen this one in years" or "haven't had a chance to look at this" and then seemed to play perfectly. I just felt like a total failure. Sigh...
Posted on May 31, 2004 at 06:46 AM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on June 1, 2004 at 04:47 AM this one has been hanging around for so long isn`t about time it wa s mothballed? Faking is the same in human action involving more than one person- best not to talk about it unless your name is Sally. Cheers, Buri From jorgen ohldin
Why should you fake anywere?you sure can not fake during a Sibelius solo-performance so why should you fake in a orchestra?My motto has allways been,play as well as the first concert-master or BETTER and you will sleep well after the performance.After all,everything is MUSIC and if you want to fake music,what are you doing in the business anyway???MUSIC rules,whatever position you have.If i play a concerto,sonata,caprice,character-piece ETC for me it is no difference.I still have to reach up to the high standard of musical-goal that i have MYSELF put up.Posted on June 1, 2004 at 09:22 PM cheers, jorgen From Elena G
You must practice a hell of a lot to be perfect in absolutely every aspect of violin playing, including every single note of an orchestral part. Posted on June 1, 2004 at 09:44 PM For most of us humans, however, orchestra programs make up only a part of a busy schedule including solo recitals, concerts, auditions, etc. Of course, concertos and other solo pieces need to be technically perfect as well as have musical integrity in order to pass as even satisfactory. And of course, we should all try our best to play orchestra music to the best of our ability... but why should we break our hands in the process? I think that to some extent, orchestral "faking" is certainly acceptable, as long as it's well hidden. With all the other aspects of being a violinist, I think missing a fast run or two is the least of our worries. From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on June 1, 2004 at 11:41 PM actually I agree with Jorgen . The issue is not really one of whether or not some passages are faked but the state of mind in which you appraoch orchestra. My own, typically anal belief, is that the orchestral players who do not shoot for the moon on everything are not the happiest. Nor do they retain their playing ability over a long period of time. I approach any orchestral rehearsal with the absolute confidence that I can play anything- as a mind set , rather than reality. Then I take home -anything- I cannot play and I bust my nuts learning it. This is often better for techniclal development than practicing concertos or what not for the simple reason thta one has a goal, a time limit, and knows where to focus the attention. A great deal of concerto practice is largely aimless repetition. I work really hard to rtry and change amateur orchestras attitudes on this as it tends to be a strong failing. The other day I had to coach an orchestra through Korsakovs tone poem abotu a vanishing village (can`t remember the name coz I only saw it in russian...) They played it pretty well until the `battle ` movement which is about ten minutes of broken chords in very regular patterns once you crack the enharmonic code. It was clear to me that the conducter had told them to `just hit the bass notes` and fake the rest and the result was not clear. So after some negotiation with the strings we sat down and went through it chord by chord, repetition by reptition until every player knew exactly where they were going and why. After three hours of this excruciating rehearsal I have never been so tired or seen so many tired faces. But, I picked up the baton and the the poor sods just played and this wave of happiness went round the room like something magical had been achieved. That is what making music is about at times. It is not always fun, the price to pay is high- but the price of -believing- faking is an option is a lot higher. Cheers, Buri From owen sutter
i've noticed everyone tends to fake the same passages and that doesnt usually sound too hot
Posted on June 2, 2004 at 12:20 AM From Christina C.
If you look at the calendar of some of the orchestras that are fortunate enough to have a full season, I think the harsh reality is that the orchestral musician may not have the luxury of sufficient time to prepare everything to the degree that they'd prepare for a solo performance.
Posted on June 2, 2004 at 01:35 PM From Kelsey Z.
Christina makes a good point. I often get only a few days (in one case only one day) to learn fairly massive orchestral programs and have to have them ready to perform. I try to do my best by figuring out what spots are going to cause me the most trouble or that are tricky and what will get "enough" practice in rehearsals.
Posted on June 2, 2004 at 02:18 PM From Laurie Niles
Yes, just last week, it was Beethoven 9 in three rehearsals. One rehearsal was the same afternoon as the concert! Posted on June 2, 2004 at 06:13 PM An orchestral player must be good at learning things fast and sight-reading. In order to get good at this, you will have to learn to "fake" well, because good sight reading only comes from lots of sight reading, and lots of sight reading means in the beginning...lots of faking. But it's a little bit like that saying in The King and I, "Make believe you're brave, and the trick will take you far, you may be as brave as you make believe you are." (Cheesey, yes. But I still like that musical. ;) The less afraid you are of "faking," the more quickly you will start "faking" with the right notes and suddenly figure out you are not "faking" at all but sight reading. From Elena G
there's my point, explained better.
Posted on June 2, 2004 at 08:18 PM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on June 3, 2004 at 06:20 AM mine too! Laurie is now the official point explainer. There is no salary increase but the kudos is phenominal, Cheers, Buri From Laurie Niles
If I don't get a salary increase, then what is the point? ;)
Posted on June 3, 2004 at 06:36 AM From Elena G
Who needs a salary when you're getting the satisfaction of making violinists' lives better? I mean, c'mon....
Posted on June 3, 2004 at 09:45 PM From Laurie Niles
True, true!
Posted on June 3, 2004 at 11:25 PM From Stephen Brivati
Thus endeth the lesson.
Posted on June 3, 2004 at 11:40 PM From N.A. Mohr
A few weeks ago I was mentioning to the Concertmaster that I couldn't hear any of the second violins when we practiced (they're all shy and insecure) which was hindering me as well, because not only is everything still hard for me (esp. keys I've never played in before, speeds I've yet to obtain even in practice and notes so high on E string my nose starts to bleed)- my innate sense of timing sucks...so I'm only playing 30% on some of the pieces we have...Posted on December 7, 2004 at 11:22 PM ...but if I can hear what I'm suppose to play...I get much better quick... ...so yesterday we had a Ringer! Woohoo! This fellow is in his 70s or more. He used to play 1st violin in the Symphony (we're the community orchestra) and was playing regularily with our group until 2 years ago when the arthritis in his hands was getting bad. ...he forgot his glasses...said he couldn't see anything... ...but man! It was SO nice having someone sitting beside me who could play it all properly! I could hear him clearly and keep tabs on his bowing. I played much better, much much better. And I think so did all the other 2nds! I just hope I get as good as he is some day... ...and I hope he keeps coming back (he said he's only coming back for a few practices...*ack*...)... From Candace Casey
Well, a place I fake EVERY SINGLE TIME in orchestra is the runs in the last section of the 3rd mvt. of Vivaldi Winter. Especially since I've only been playing 3 years, I just can't get it yet.
Posted on December 8, 2004 at 12:42 AM From Sue Donim
N.A. your nosebleed remark made me laugh! A couple of my Grade 1 little ones have started playing in their school orchestra. So Lucy came flying in after her first rehearsal, and I said, 'So how'd it go?' 'Oh', she said, 'It was really funny... we couldn't play the notes so we *pretended* to play... like this' (demo). I was astounded that she had picked up a skill it took me years to hone. I laughed and recklessly told her the Musician's Mantra: 'If in doubt, leave it out'.
Posted on December 8, 2004 at 01:02 AM From Jenni Thompson
faking is a GREAT SKILL; it is learned. other than using it for maintaining the smooth, "don't draw attention to yourself and go with the flow" visual that is necessary for orchestra playing, faking to have the orchestra sound softer in general is widely accepted. 3 or 4 people drop out and draw silent bows, and the conductor is happy he/she finally got the pianississimo. Especially in student orchestras, you'll come across people that simply CANNOT play softer than a mezzo piano. It's an anomaly. That said, faking is a good tool--as long as you don't use it in lieu of actual practicing! A crime you're not guilty of :)Posted on December 8, 2004 at 01:15 AM As for not being able to play passages as fast as the conductor, just keep working on your skills and try to get better. There are tricks you can use to get fast passages faster. We've all been there. :-P From Sam Li
Faking is an extremely valuable skill, and when taken to the highest level is called something entirely different - improvising.
Posted on December 8, 2004 at 01:20 AM From Julie C.
My orchestra conductor TEACHES us to fake. He says he did it all the time when he was playing in professional orchestras. He was the concertmaster, too. AHAHAh, so it's all right to fake. :) Especially in really really hard runs, where the only thing that matters is the first and the last note.
Posted on December 8, 2004 at 04:57 AM From Christian Vachon
I don't know if faking is really the right word, but sometimes, that is a necessary skill in any orchestra. Ensemble is the key rather than individual result. Not to say that you shouldn't strive to play everything, but sometimes things happen where you need to fake (incident somewhere else and you need to catch up to that); make-up for a missed entrance in another section of the orchestra, etc., etc.. And to answer your question, yes people do fake even in some professional orchestras (how you can play every note when you play 60 different programs a year!), although in most great orchestras, it is very very very minimal (a run sometimes here and there). Posted on December 8, 2004 at 01:24 PM Two things though. Some composers do write things that are impossible to play and where the overall effect is more important the individual notes. For example, sometimes in the tone poems of Richard Strauss there are some passages in the brass accompanied by running figures, where the running notes are really more of an effect than clearly audible individually in concert. Another important thing is not to confuse faking with good ensemble playing. Faking is a last resort in my opinion if ensemble needs to supersede individual integrity. However, it should never be a habit or common practice from a good orchestral player. Cheers! From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on December 8, 2004 at 11:44 PM I agree with the last comment. Orchestral players are so good these dyas they are actuyally playing the notes most of the time. Part of the problem to my mind lies in the way conservatoires and music colleges tend to encourage a soloist mentality so that young people don`t spend enough time sitting down and really studying for example, tchikovsky orchsetral parts, while they are stil young. They are a huge technical resource. Poeple say ther infamous Schumman 4 is faking for example, but six months spent learning it like a caprice is very useful, Cheers, Buri From Emily Grossman
Buri, you've got something on your post... right... there. Wish I could wipe it off for you.
Posted on December 9, 2004 at 06:48 AM From Christian Vachon
I agree with Buri, and I find that the demerit is really innappropriate (whoever put it there). There is a lot of truth in that comment...
Posted on December 9, 2004 at 03:51 PM From howard vandersluis
If you make a mistake and nobody hears it, did you really make a mistake? Unless you are a full time musician (and sometimes not even then...), you have to be able to do things under less than optimal conditions. So, being able to fake effectively at a rehearsal after an 8 hour shift at the J.C. Penney store where you work to support yourself, your girlfriend, and her kid is a very important skill...
Posted on December 10, 2004 at 03:38 PM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on December 10, 2004 at 10:24 PM that isperfectly true. But the original question was does the BPO or simnilar fake and the answer is basically no. The whole use of the word faking is rathermisleading a sfar as I am cocnerned. One simply plays somehting as well as one can according to technical reosurces, preparation time and experience. This combines with te skill of not getting in the way in orchetra. When one getsintot he kind of lets fake this mind set then limitations are being set on the final result. For example, I coached an amateur orchestra doing Tchiak four about six months ago and they sounded okay but I asked the 1st violnis to demonstarte the series of raid runswithin the frame of a fifth on the last page and they said their previous coac had told them to make sure you ahve the firts and last notes as'these are the only one sheard." I suggetsed thta while this was true if they invested some time in learning not only thta basic structure but also the pattern of the three notes i between in the same way they would leanr a sevcik exericse , a difficult etude or a cocnerto the result might surprise them. Having done so, the result was a new level of brilliance as opposed to their usual loud and blurred even though they weren"t really hitting all the right notes. From this is concluded that the better you try and do something the more honest and effective the results are in the long run. Cheers, Buri From fiona d
Buri that reminds me of a couple of years ago playing Tchaik five in a youth orchestra...On the last page of the fourth movement are some very fast runs, highish, and our 1st violin tutor said he wanted all inside players playing only the 1st and last notes of the runs, as these were 'the only notes that could really be heard'. I was absolutely devastated!! Of course faking is necessary sometimes in sight reading or at a rehearsal if you've had a really bad week/day & no time to practice, but it is so unsatisfying in the long run! I think difficult orchestral works have to be viewed in the same way & with the same respect as solos--if they are difficult they need metronome practice, a good fingering etc....I mean, if you were playing the Mendelssohn concerto you wouldn't fake the last movement because the semiquavers were too fast, so a difficult orchestral work like a Mahler symphony deserves the same amount of respect & practice.
Posted on December 10, 2004 at 11:54 PM From Sue Donim
However, you might also view these situations as examples of cases where the orchestral director has (often quite consciously) selected repertoire beyond his/her orchestra's capabilities. Are we so hung up on Great Works we'd rather play one badly or fake it than play something of a more appropriate level well? I've got nothing against a challenge, but when 50% of your string section has not the resources to make it through the difficult passages, I reckon it's time to review the repertoire.
Posted on December 11, 2004 at 12:13 AM From Charlie Caldwell
I agree with sue.Posted on December 11, 2004 at 12:45 AM It is especially bad when that 50% is the 2nd violins. The second violins in all of the orchestras I have ever been in are always so much worse than the first violins. Why do the people who seperate the violin sections not put good violinists in the 2nd violin section; instead, they have it where the last chair 1st is better than the principal second. From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on December 11, 2004 at 02:49 AM crate of prunes to Sue and Charlie, Cheers, Buri From S W
Listen to a recording of the performance. You'l lsee ow much faking goes on. : ) Since I am not a "Heifitz" I personaly at times have missed a note or three. This whole subject reminds me of the time when two of my strings went horribly out of tune during a performance. I was faking it until the intermission.
Posted on December 23, 2004 at 05:36 AM From Christian Vachon
Hi,Posted on December 26, 2004 at 03:40 PM In response. I have several friends in great orchestras, and they assure me that there is no faking in world-class orchestras. As for missing notes, that is just normal, not faking. And I maitain in the old school way that one should be able to play in tune on an out of tune violin as much as possible. I don't think that is faking, just a reality of the profession. Not making the effort and faking instead of doing it, now that is a different story. Cheers! From Jonathan Parle
Yep, there is certainly no faking going on in the Sydney Symphony Orhestra. Fake it in that one and no need to bother turning up to work the next day. Not that this hypothetical scenario happens because you wouldn't have gotten into the orchestra to begin with.
Posted on December 26, 2004 at 04:45 PM From Owen Sutter
Well thats interesting you say that. Earlier in this thread somebody who used to play in the berlin phil assured us there was a certain level of faking even there.
Posted on December 28, 2004 at 06:23 AM From Jackie Jones
I'm glad I found this discussion - it's made me feel way less guilty about my current spate of faking.Posted on May 30, 2005 at 08:41 PM Although this discussion has been about faking. There seems to be two types of faking being described. 1)Missing the odd note, and 2)What seems to be miming passages which are too difficult. I'm having to do both of these at the moment - playing second for Sullivan's Pirates. The orchestra is drawn from two local amateur orchestras and other random players known to the MD - and we've got two rehearsals in total. The first one was very poorly attended - people have other commitments - but even playing with the one other second I found myself struggling over sections which I'd been fine with practicing at home (mainly because of the tempos!). I know when the show comes round I'll do my best to play everything - but the MD's told me not to worry if I can't and to just play what I can, which I will as the orchestra for the show is always woefully short of violinists. But so long as I finish with everyone else (which is a skill I do have) and play the majority of the notes at the right time - I'll be happy. Jackie From Hannah Frey
I doubt many people in the Berlin Phil fake, but I'm sure some do. But, I know this--if you are wanting to make a living today starting out in orchestra, you shouldn't be faking. Let the old-timers do that if they want, but if you want to be a professional musician you should learn your part. And don't worry about the number of rehearsals, if there aren't enough rehearsals that's because you are expected to know your part ahead of time. That said, youth orchestra and school orchestras are different, because there are lots of rehearsals and the music may genuinely be too difficult for most members of the group. And I will admit to occasionally faking (music from Wagner's Magic Fire Music, three months ago, but I still feel guilty about not having learned it) but generally I try to make sure to practice ahead of time any repertoire that I won't be able to sight-read successfully.
Posted on February 5, 2006 at 05:12 AM From Julie C.
My youth orchestra conductor says faking is an important skill to learn, especially for impossibly difficult passages that are well-covered up by the wind and brass sections. For example: In the first violin part of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite, the really impossible ascending notes right before the end.
Posted on February 5, 2006 at 06:15 AM From Nicholas Tavani
Everyone fakes...Posted on February 5, 2006 at 08:30 AM except for the Cleveland Orchestra. =) From Sander Marcus
As an amateur, I have never played in a fully professional group. I have played in community orchestras and a wonderful semi-professional chamber orchestra in college years ago. Of course, there were pieces in which everyone faked (at least parts of it), but I certainly don't think that any professional should do it unless it is absolutely, absolutely necessary. You've got to approach and learn each part with the attitude that it is a solo concerto.Posted on February 5, 2006 at 12:36 PM I once joined a community orchestra in the final rehearsal before the concert. I was sitting in the last seat in the first violin section. Fortunately, I've always been a pretty good sight-reader. I didn't have a problem with most of the program. However, one of the pieces was Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, and we weren't allowed to take the music home. To me, the music looked like wallpaper. I was terrified. But the night of the concert, I discovered that I was sitting right in front of the huge percussion section - giant drums, gongs, bells, everything. Not only could nobody hear me if they were close enough to hug, but I couldn't hear myself think. Lord knows what I sounded like, but I looked great. From Preston Hawes
Having worked with a number of composers in performing their orchestral compositions I can assure you that there are many 20th C orchestral compositions where effect is more important than accuracy....that may perhaps also be a testament to the quality of the composition.Posted on February 5, 2006 at 03:03 PM
From Sander Marcus
I wonder how many music critics are faking.
Posted on February 8, 2006 at 01:03 AM From Stephen Brivati
in or out of bed?
Posted on February 8, 2006 at 01:14 AM From Sander Marcus
Both.
Posted on February 8, 2006 at 01:34 AM From Laura Yeh
Jackie makes an interesting point. I can't tell you how many times I've learned something in my practice, only to fall apart in rehearsal. I think the problem is not playing rhythmically enough. I've found this in rehearsing with pianists also. I used to have a hard time rehearsing with pianists and it would take me quite a few rehearsals to fit our two parts together. (I have a terrible addiction to rushing....) The problem was that I wasn't doing enough metronome practice. If you got the part learned with a metronome, chances are you won't have trouble in rehearsal.
Posted on February 8, 2006 at 06:49 PM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on February 8, 2006 at 11:10 PM that is an importnat point. Also, the abilty to play faster and slower than the eventual tempo using a metronome is importnat. But, I would also note that a major weakness of young player slearning about orchestra is they don`t realize the key is memory. the more you can memorize an orchestral part both in private practice and during the sesison itself the freer you are to listen to the other players and adapt accordingly. Another point concerning the metronome is thta there are two ways of using it . One is where you follow it blindly (funny how out of time it gets on ocassion) and the other in which one consciously has the feleing of leading the metronom. The latter is significanlty more useful. Cheers, Buri From Jim Hoyle
I tend to be the same as Laura - I usually find things go a lot slower than I'd expected, and this throws you too, especially when the wind and brass drag on the barlines. But you can also practise faking - eg the Galamian scales, keep increasing the speed till you're only faking them, then you get the feel of moving the hands correctly but not playing all the notes. Would stand you in good stead in one of the 'Enigma Variations'. And always wait on the note before the shift, however fast.Posted on February 9, 2006 at 01:02 AM What's more, all players fake - including Heifetz. I'm convinced there's a passage in the Castelnuovo-Tedesco "Prophets" concerto where it's just a very elegant push and shove across the strings! From jordan santiago
I think every orchestra member knows they are not alone in faking. But what makes a good orchestra member is the kind that thinks that they are alone in faking- this is the kind of orchestra member who works and gets things done, and is so embarrased by faking that they make sure not to slop it up.
Posted on February 9, 2006 at 03:57 AM From Stephen Brivati
Greetings,Posted on February 9, 2006 at 04:39 AM I respectfully suggest that Heifetz does not fake . Nor do many of the top players in the world today. The general level of tehcnique is just fantastic. On the other hand ricci has pointed out on ocassion that the public only hears the firts and last part of a run so it is bets to focus ones attention there... Cheers, Buri From Jim Hoyle
Quote by Stephen: "I respectfully suggest that Heifetz does not fake . Nor do many of the top players in the world today. The general level of technique is just fantastic."Posted on February 9, 2006 at 01:27 PM I agree, but isn't it also a question of degree of articulation - perhaps there is no clear dividing line between "faking" and "accurate playing". Eg I got a CD of Huberman this week and he plays the opening of the last mvt of Mendelssohn crystal clear, you can hear every note, and with so many players, even top end ones, this is not the case. Or is this getting off-topic. From Patty Rutins
There are definitely multiple standards and definitions of "faking" being discussed here. Posted on February 9, 2006 at 04:53 PM There's the "I can't play it so I'm trying not to make a sound" kind of faking. In my (somewhat limited) experience, that happens mostly in school orchestras. In good youth orchestras (the kind that hold auditions rather than accepting everyone), I have seen none of the above kind of faking, and in fact very little faking of any kind. Players in those orchestras may fake through the first couple of rehearsals, but they'll take the music home and by the time the concert happens (with plenty of rehearsal time in between, mind you) they'll have the hard stuff nailed. In amateur adult community orchestras, you get a different kind of faking -- the sort where you just skip some notes. If you've got a passage that outlines an arpeggio but it's in 32nds with chromatics in between, you'll just play the arpeggio. You're still in rhythm and you're still in tune, and hopefully someone else got the chromatics. There will be sections that sound muddy, but mostly the amateur community orchestra sound is made up of not very many people playing difficult stuff not quite in tune. They're not faking, they're just not quite in tune. The other sort of faking there is to let the one player that you know will get the high note start the note alone, then find your note and join them. You sortof get the doppler effect that way, but it's better than the sour effect! ;) I've never played in a professional orchestra, but have played in a pre-professional orchestra and again, very very little faking (except from me! ;)). The necessity to develop the skill of faking comes from 1) lack of sufficient rehearsal time (typically, players at a professional level do fine technically, but if you don't have enough time with the orchestra, it doesn't always come together) and 2) the fact that the orchestral music was composed by a flutist, or a drummer, or a pianist, or a tubist, or worse yet, a composer ;) -- not a violinist. All they know is the range of the violin -- they don't understand easy vs. hard on the instrument, and will consequently write music that is nearly impossible to play, especially in ensemble. So in an orchestra where each player is technically proficient, the necessity for faking is really under the control of the person that chooses the music and sets the rehearsal schedule. The Best Orchestras (at all levels) choose appropriate music and schedule enough rehearsals for it. Other orchestras choose music that's too difficult to put together and then don't schedule enough rehearsals. From Susan Jeter
Stephen: "the terror of sightreading a page of oversexed ants hyped up on prune juice"...LOL!!Posted on February 10, 2006 at 06:34 PM Christian: When the community orchestra I was in was trying to play the opening bar of the Strauss "Overture to Don Juan", the conductor said, "Oh, that's just an effect"... N.A.: The nosebleed remark reminded me of the passage in (Strauss, again) "Death and Transfiguration" where one note seems like it's off the fingerboard on the E string so we started calling the piece "Death and Dismemberment"! (which reminds me...going off on a tangent, here...a cartoon in which the couple is talking about a furniture purchase at the local department store which is named "Tod und Verklärung"...I wonder how many people read that and had it go completely over their head...) From Rigo Murillo
Hey guys,Posted on April 12, 2006 at 08:00 PM It all depends. If we're talking about those big-name orchestras like Berlin, Chicago, etc., you will have to go to their concerts regularly to know whether or not they fake. Forget the recordings. When recording, everybody tries to be polished in their passages. Then it is the aspect of whether or not YOU NOTICED they faked. Even good ears and eyes can percive no error because they fake well. You simply don't know who didn't play which note or who did play it. That's how good they are. I surely have done it, but I don't fake on purpose, I try to do the best I can and then, if the demand is too large, the last resource is to fake. Nowdays, pro orchestras' schedules in the US are so demanding that it's impossible to think nobody has to do it at some point. I have the experience here with the DSO to say some musicians just give up trying in certain occasions with certain pieces and conductors. Some musicians don't want to try any harder unless it is demanded by the conductor's musical knowledge and integrity. Well... that's it! From Mendy Smith
I'm glad to see this thread re-opened. I just recently joined a community orchestra and I'm having the problem of playing at full speed while not being able to hear myself or set my own pace. I've played well enough by my lonesome or in a duet/quartet for years, but not in a full orchestra for well over 20 years. And I'm finding that I'm having to recall a few "faking it techniques" like bowing with everyone else and pausing with everyone else.Posted on April 13, 2006 at 02:44 AM Luckily, there aren't that many passages where I have to do this and I'm working dilligently on getting past the "faking it" part for these sections. The trouble is for me picking the right person in front of me to follow for the bowing/rhythm since I have a hard time seeing the conductor (the guy in front of me is 6' 5" at least!!!) Intonation is a problem since I can't hear myself at all, so I can't tell if I'm in tune or not - by myself even at tempo there is no issue, so I have to just trust that I'm playing in tune without actually hearing myself (any hints on this?) From Michael Schallock
If you simply don't practice, or if you don't understand a passage, or if you are bored and don't make an effort to work things out and perform anyway you are faking it. I think this is bad.Posted on April 13, 2006 at 04:31 AM If you work hard and try your best and are conscientious in your practice and still have trouble and can't play everything but perform to the best of your ability you are not faking it. I think this is good. No one plays perfectly. If you are playing honestly the best you can then you are not faking, you are simply playing the best you can given the circumstances. From Gary Kroll
Once in my string class I told my students to move their bows in the right rhythm above the strings at our concert if they couldn’t play all the notes. Actually, everyone was playing quite well except one unfortunate young man whose mother would only bring him to half our rehearsals. I got an irate phone call from the mom who screamed that she was going to the principal and that I was going to lose my job because I had told her son to lie. If her son couldn’t play all the songs he would not be faking it, nor would he be playing in the concert! Oh well, most of my school memories are good. Moral of this true story: if you fake don‘t even think about letting your mother know.
Posted on April 13, 2006 at 05:26 AM From Jim W. Miller
A couple weeks ago I went to see a community orchestra, mostly kids it looked like. The concertmaster was 40ish and played all the notes and was a good violinist. I could always hear him, and a lot of the time he was all I could hear. The rear stands were like actors in a movie. If the concertmaster could be in the Berlin Phil he'd be there. Therefore somehow I deduce they don't fake in the Berlin Phil. If you did, you'd get ratted out and be gone I bet.
Posted on April 13, 2006 at 05:41 AM From Katherine Handcock
Hi everyone,Posted on April 13, 2006 at 04:29 PM This is a really interesting thread! So I'll stick in another thought: there are different types of faking (as discussed above) but also different levels of faking. I think there's a big difference between miming playing; playing every second note; cutting numbers of players to avoid overwhelming another instrument/section; and intellectually choosing to focus on the effect desired rather than the notes as written. I doubt that there is ever a situation where the major orchestras mime playing or play every second note. There may be occasional situations where they choose to have only half the section play (i.e. in a piece with an awkward orchestration where the strings could end up running rampant over a delicate solo on another instrument.) There probably are sections where they or their concertmaster looks at a run and makes the educated decision: is this a run or is it an effect? If rehearsing the section to full accuracy produces a new clarity and brilliance, it is a real passage, meant to be played as written. But I've played pieces where the desired effect was a "wash" of sound, and the composer (for whatever reason) chose to write it as a run rather than as a glissando. So, here's my personal definition of "good" faking versus "bad" faking: "good" faking is when you look at your part, practice it as hard as is reasonable without putting yourself in traction, and make the educated decision to modify it to suit the situation and avoid throwing off other members of the ensemble. "Bad" faking is when you look at the part, say, "Eh, nobody will hear that anyway," and move on. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this! From Rigo Murillo
Hey Katherine,Posted on April 13, 2006 at 06:06 PM Yes, I agree with you. There is this "liberal" attitude to just hide under the wings of the section and, on the other side, there is the genuine effort to give the best possible. You can see this almost everywhere.
Rigo. From Daniel Blomdahl
Did you ever think that they are better than you? Maybe you should drop out of your orchestra if you can't keep up. Obviously there are some people who can.
Posted on April 13, 2006 at 06:20 PM From Mendy Smith
Daniel - I am not even considering dropping out. This is a community orchestra, and I consider myself a decent player and can play some pretty challenging pieces. I've only been to rehearsals 2 times so far and I'm WAY out of practice playing in large groups (I'm talking decades). Sure, there are people much better than me, some at the same level and a few who are worse. Posted on April 14, 2006 at 02:49 AM For me, like many others in the group, we do this for fun. I practice every day as much as I can with a heavy work schedule, and now I'm practicing at tempo with recordings of the pieces to hear how all the sections fit together. Out of everything we are playing, there are only a few small sections that I find extremely challenging at full tempo that I focus on. However come to concert time, I do not want to disrupt the performance due to a few areas I have problems with - hense the 'faking it' skill. Having watched performances before, there is nothing worse than seeing bows out of sync or the lone note played where there should be none at all. I really do not think that not being able to play about 5-8 measures in the whole concert is worth dropping out over. But playing a note when everyone else is resting is NOT a good thing :) I'm sure I'll be back in the swing of things again after a few more practice rehearsals... From Clarissa Ng
Wow if everyone drops out because they can't play a passage due to some unreasonable orchestrations, then the turn-over rate of orchestras around the world, big and small, would be enormus! I doubt no one EVER fakes in orchestras, even in large, well known ones. Yep, I agree with everyone else - there's an art of faking that takes years to master. You expect players to be good, be able to play the passages BUt not without flaws. I don't think any human is flawless. Man, I've seen faking in big orchestras, I've seen ppl not being able to hold the violin properly and not able to draw a straight bow in big orchestras. I've seen ppl who gets lost in the music - so should they drop out as well?? Where on earth can you find so many violinsts to replace those places?
Posted on April 14, 2006 at 03:11 AM From Pauline Lerner
Mendy, if youy're playing with a recording a tempo, I think you're in good shape. I agree with the people who said that there are different degrees of badness about faking. If there are long runs of fast notes and you play the ones on the beats and stay in the right key, that's not too bad. There are some gross mistakes that I definitely avoid, such as playing when other people are resting, playing E natural when others are playing E flat, and playing arco when everyone else is playing pizz. These errors can be viewed as nightmares or bad jokes. I mark my sheet music carefully to keep myself out of trouble.
Posted on April 14, 2006 at 04:39 AM From Daniel Broniatowski
Daniel, Posted on April 15, 2006 at 02:02 AM There are many people who fake for many reasons. Some of us are amateurs and some of us are professionals. While I believe that one must practice diligently, and do not condone it, no one is perfect. We have no right to judge. From Daniel Blomdahl
We have every right to judge. If they can't handle it they should drop out. I think that if someone isn't committed enough to practice daily they don't deserve the honor of playing in an orchestra and taking the credit. You may have a doctrite degree, but obviously you need to learn something about committment. I play 4 instruments. I know what committment is.
Posted on April 15, 2006 at 07:16 PM This discussion has been archived, and is not accepting additional responses.
|
Support Violinist.com
Search Violinist.comInterviews
Editor's Blogs
Plus: The Weekend Vote SponsorsThe following supporters have made a financial commitment to the Violinist.com community. We hope you will return the favor by considering them first when making a violin- or music-related purchase.
- Hans Pluhar 
|
|
Printer-friendly version
Regina Carter
Mikhail Simonyan
Laurie Niles