Why NOT to buy a Chinese violin Part 3

September 27, 2016 at 04:32 AM · This is a continuation, of a continuation, of a post that filled up in less than 15 hours. People may have more to say, so here is your chance. My views I have made clear in the previous thread. I will sit back and let others express their opinions without my $0.02.

This was my original post...

"Why are there so many posts comparing one cheap Chinese brand against another? As a rule, loud, brash, and soulless, with the occasional exception. Are posters not at all concerned about supporting another country's economy, rather than their own? Are they giving a nod to slave wages and 3rd world working conditions, by ignoring realities? Are they happy buying these instruments with the 1000% mark-up that dealers put on them? Or do they ignore all this, and just buy a cheap violin without any twinge of conscience?" [EDIT]

Replies (105)

September 27, 2016 at 05:00 AM · Dear lord Carlo will it ever end

September 27, 2016 at 05:08 AM · Trumps import tax plan would effectively almost double the price of Chinese violins, and by the time he declares war on China over those stupid islands made of imported sand, all imports from China will effectively cease except for a few straggling smuggled violins coming in through our new ally, North Korea.

Be prepared to have to pull out your grandfathers "Strad", and have to pay good money to have it restored, or otherwise just do without cheap violins in general. Amazing the difference one new President can make to the violin economy!!

September 27, 2016 at 11:09 AM · China even makes cheap islands.

September 27, 2016 at 11:13 AM · Carlo - you might enjoy this link about antique violins and other stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxJZKjxEDCo

September 27, 2016 at 12:26 PM · Aaaaand here we go again, hahahaha.

As I've already said several times, I enjoy eating chinese food while walking my 100% American-born dog, because I know that otherwise, Trump would charge me thousands of dollars for buying on eBay Musafia violins.

Besides, as I'm a Sweden-made axe collector, I'd expect Hillary to support local luthiers as they are in clear disadvantage with the asian market.

Talking about hockey fights, I love the sound of my asian-made clavichord.

That's all I had to say.

September 27, 2016 at 01:01 PM · The violin market is the least of my concerns with Trump...

September 27, 2016 at 03:43 PM · I think most of the vitriol has now been spent...

September 27, 2016 at 03:49 PM · Oh come on, people! Have we not lives? I never thought anything on v.com would make me miss an argument over shoulder rests or another discussion about rosin choices - but now I do! :-O

September 27, 2016 at 04:02 PM · Good point - but one person can put the cat amongst the pigeons ... no need to elaborate on that.

September 27, 2016 at 04:26 PM · See how them Chinese fiddles produce a shaky tone and poor intonation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ASXbWVDBmg

September 27, 2016 at 04:34 PM · Great bow arm and wonderful sound from that great Chinese fiddle. Best sound I've heard all year!

September 27, 2016 at 06:55 PM · Wow David, that violinist's arm is like a machine.

September 27, 2016 at 10:03 PM · "Good point - but one person can put the cat amongst the pigeons ... no need to elaborate on that."

Are we talking about pets again?

I believe my cat is either jealous of my violins or he thinks the sounds I'm making must be sounds of agony, because always after playing the cat demands to give me lots and lots of love!

September 27, 2016 at 11:06 PM · Picking up a serious thread again... Commissions are a tough way to buy a violin, and they are out of the reach of most players. Also, it's hard to say at what price point an American or European handmade instrument starts to outplay a Chinese workshop violin.

September 28, 2016 at 01:23 AM · Damn, love that sawzall action. I wish I had thought of that. Trying now to think about what I might be able to do instead with my Paslode nailer.

September 28, 2016 at 03:46 AM · Martele' of course

September 28, 2016 at 12:54 PM · "Why NOT to buy an antique fiddle - part 4!!

Whose in for a start?!

September 28, 2016 at 02:18 PM · The only reason not to buy an antique fiddle, is from listening to and actually believing Peter Charles' advice!!

September 28, 2016 at 02:23 PM · Antique violins are #1 OLD. Who wants an old violin? Do people like old run down cars? Old sandwiches? Old smobiles?

Antiques are also usually sold by the same types that sell old used cars. Who wants that?

September 28, 2016 at 02:33 PM · Another "great" reason not to buy an antique, tell that to Joshua Bell. Sounds like advice from someone who hates his grandparents.....

September 28, 2016 at 02:42 PM · if we all could afford a million dollar plus violin like he can...talk about dealer mark up!

September 28, 2016 at 03:05 PM · Ouch, that dealer mark up pun really hit hard. That's not marking up, that's literally MEGA stoling someone's money.

"Why NOT to buy an antique fiddle - part 4!!

Whose in for a start?!"

I will start it, kind of late, but whatever. Donald Trump, my dog and I think that modern violins kick ass.

However, there's a tricky part. If I had to spend money on an antique violin, I'd choose a chinese made antique violin.

If I had to spend money on a modern violin, nonetheless, I'd buy a USA/Europe made violin.

September 28, 2016 at 03:05 PM · Actually dealer mark up on a genuine Strad is close to 15%.

September 28, 2016 at 03:06 PM · I wouldn't mind 15% of $1,000,000+

Just for dangling a price tag on that old box o' wood with strings.

What a racket!

September 28, 2016 at 03:13 PM · Why do you guys even bother to play violin if you hate its history so much??

September 28, 2016 at 03:21 PM · I'm more interested in violin's future.

September 28, 2016 at 03:23 PM · "Why do you guys even bother to play violin if you hate its history so much?? "

Because we play them and don't deal in them or just look at them, and go for the best sound, at a reasonable price, something you can't understand.

September 28, 2016 at 03:35 PM · Well its quite obvious to our readers that you guys are much more biased against antiques, than I am biased against modern violins. At least I recommend that you compare moderns and antiques and make your own decision, as I have said before, you don't want people having a choice, you just want them all to buy modern, and the modern brands you recommend, without even considering the other options, so much for rationality.

September 28, 2016 at 03:38 PM · We don't want them to just buy modern.

We want them to buy CHINESE!!!

September 28, 2016 at 04:33 PM · I've cancelled my subscription to cable TV in order to follow this, so keep these posts coming!!

September 28, 2016 at 04:48 PM · Game of Thrones wont be back until late in 2017.

To fulfill your share of blood lust, fire breathing, and scheming and backbiting for power, tune in to the next episode of "Why NOT to buy a Chinese violin "

September 28, 2016 at 05:01 PM · Seraphim, that doesn't look like a modern violin, but it doesn't sound that good either, so maybe!!

September 28, 2016 at 05:23 PM · Just to give you an example of my antiques vs modern Chinese, 2 years ago my customer bought a highly rated top of the line Ming Jiang Zhu 909 model violin for $2000, it now retails for $3200.

I recently purchased on ebay of all places, a violin augearbeiten (again made, remade) by a German maker named Stumpel from 1881, while the instrument appears to have started its life as a white violin from Markneukirchen, South Germany, it was finished and regraduated to his custom scheme by Stumpfel in Minden, Northern Germany, the instrument had been revarnished and I priced it at $2000.

Short story; my customer thinks the Stumpfel sounds significantly better than her Ming Zhu, and has decided to sell her Ming Zhu and buy the 135 year old Stumpfel, and this is one of the highly rated recommended Chinese brands(even here on violinist.com) clearly beaten by one of my affordable antiques.

September 28, 2016 at 05:48 PM · So....you're saying that the Chinese violin appreciated in value by 60% in two years! From $2000 to $3200.

Thank you for making the point about how valuable these Chinese violins are! Wow! Better invest now.

EDIT: And the comment about Xiang Yu not sounding that good...I think you may need to make an appointment. You may be suffering from "earwax".

September 28, 2016 at 05:53 PM · This thread was originally written NOT as a new v old thread, nor as a Chinese v ROW thread. Would anyone like to go back to the topic? Please?

In terms of investment, I am sure new Chinese fiddles will have next to none. Shops won't want to deal in them. They can get a new one for a 10th of the price, and make their 1000% profit on that.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 05:55 PM · Not really appreciating, just the Chinese dollar getting stronger etc. Chinese violins are going to get more and more expensive until antiques again become the cheaper option, like they are already at my shop.

September 28, 2016 at 06:02 PM · What exactly WAS the topic?

It really didn't originally have much to do with violins. It seemed to be more aimed at socio-polital money issues, political correctness, and Nationalism. So, the topic wasn't really very valid in the first place as far as instrument quality goes.

September 28, 2016 at 06:08 PM · I have to agree with you on that.

September 28, 2016 at 06:14 PM · Political correctness no, the ethics of supporting slave labour yes, socio-political money issues yes, the dependence of the West on the East yes, loss of local jobs yes, Nationalism no.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 06:15 PM · And don't try and play the innocent here, Carlo!

You let this genie out of it's bottle...you flung wide the lid of Pandora's box.

On purpose!

Now it's time to reap the whirlwind!

;^p

.

September 28, 2016 at 06:21 PM · The lid needed opening. Too many people shop by looking at the bottom line without caring about any other issues. Who here bought a Chinese violin, having thought through the ethics? or did they think, "this seems like a nice violin for a cheap price, I want it"

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 06:26 PM · To me, the "ethics" seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors.

I went with option #2--"this seems like a nice violin for a cheap price, I want it". I haven't been disappointed so far.

Perhaps we need to look at the ethics of why things produced in the West are so much more expensive? Why would I want to support an economy based upon wanting to make as much money as possible out of every violin transaction? What other explanation is there for violins costing thousand, if not tens of thousands of dollars?

That is every bit as despicable as "slave labor" wages.

September 28, 2016 at 06:26 PM · Hahahaha, some comments are priceless!

Others though would cost the same as a chinese made violin.

I'm gonna go one step further, I'm about to cancell my internet connection so I can fully enjoy this thread.

September 28, 2016 at 06:28 PM · I can't get that Meditation to play - it just sticks (a bit like Lyndon!)

Yes, Carlo, admit it, you sat back and watched the fireworks, and the touch paper was lit by you-know-who! (I don't blame you - it was quite an interesting discussion, unlike the rosin one which seems to have died a natural death, or maybe people are just invisibly resting!

September 28, 2016 at 06:29 PM · Tim, you cannot escape this thread so easily.

I have a brother in law that works in Hollywood. I'm optioning this thread as a made for TV series, perhaps big screen blockbuster.

September 28, 2016 at 06:30 PM · Goods are more expensive in the West because workers are paid a living wage, children aren't exploited, they have health care, a pension, they are not fired when they get pregnant or sick, they get compensation if they cut off their finger at work. In short, people are treated with respect.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 06:33 PM · Yet, for a consumer to then purchase that violin from that pampered employee, means that they themselves will have to labor at whatever job they slave away at for hours a day for just that much longer to then pay for that much more expensive instrument.

September 28, 2016 at 06:34 PM · Yes.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 06:46 PM · Carlo, don't act as if you cared about Chinese villagers and Chinese people in general. Please...

September 28, 2016 at 06:59 PM · I act as if I care about people, Chinese as well as all others. I boycotted South African goods during apartheid, and Nike when they were using child labour to sew their shoes.

By buying from police states such as China, there is an implication that you support the system who's goods you buy.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 07:09 PM · Seraphim, that doesn't look like a modern violin, but it doesn't sound that good either, so maybe!!

I heard him playing Mozart with piano and then Prokofiev vln concerto on what looked like the same violin, and it sounded like the same fiddle. A really lovely sound. So your hearing must be much worse than ear wax! I could not find what the violin is, modern or antique, but it had a great sound, sort of Strad like, if you know what a Strad sounds like Lyndon.

September 28, 2016 at 07:32 PM · I specifically commented that it doesn't sound very good, and by that I meant anything like a Strad, I think its time to clean your ears out again, that is not a good sound, and I'm listening to them on a $5000 stereo.

September 28, 2016 at 07:51 PM · Is your stereo chinese? I bet good money it is, at least a lot of the components are chinese.

Carlo, your philosophy is impossible and childish, that's what I'd expect a teenager to say, and you DO support China, buying violins or not.

September 28, 2016 at 08:03 PM · @Tim. My stereo is English and rather high end, made in 90s so unlikely to contain any Chinese components. My furniture and homewares for the most part are antique, as that is my aesthetic. My violins are Italian, French, German, NZ, and English. My car is German as are my home appliances.

When I shop for new goods it is in the following order: local, European, then from the West, I will buy Chinese if there is no other option. My iPhone 7 is made in China.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 08:14 PM · No, my stereo is Japanese, French and American, and 20 years old and older

September 28, 2016 at 08:15 PM · How can you say this thread is not a Chinese vs. ROW (rest of world) thread, when you subsequently list your shopping list as:

"When I shop for new goods it is in the following order: local, European, then from the West, I will buy Chinese if there is no other option."

I think you need to face up to the reality of what exactly it is that you are posting about.

September 28, 2016 at 08:17 PM · He also seems to boycott American, which is probably not so bad an idea, given what America stands for nowadays.

September 28, 2016 at 08:20 PM · I am saying I am ethically against sourcing goods from any country that has a poor human rights record, and is exploiting their work force, to undercut countries who put human rights first. In this case it is China.

Are you saying you don't care about human rights, or local jobs, but put the bottom line first?

@Lyndon. I do not boycott American. Unless the American store is a reseller of cheap Chinese goods such as own branded violin cases.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 08:23 PM · that is not a good sound, and I'm listening to them on a $5000 stereo.

I'm probably listening on even better equipment - but it doesn't matter what you listen on if you are so uneducated in violin sound that you don't have a clue what a good sound is.

September 28, 2016 at 08:26 PM · " ...exploiting their work force"

Every single company in the world does this. It is called capitalism.

The Japanese work crazy, crazy long days. Is that any sort of life? I suppose we better boycott them too.

My company, that I have worked for over 15 years has year by year cut back on benefits, salary increases, did away with pensions the year before I even started.

I work just hard enough that they don't fire me, and they pay me just enough that I dont quit.

That's business 101

September 28, 2016 at 08:33 PM · @Stuart. What happens to that "average factory violin maker in China" if he, or she, gets injured at work, sick, or pregnant? What if they want a pay rise? What if their employer makes sexual advances? Do they deserve healthcare and a pension? If the Chinese people were writing as we are now, would they would be jailed?

Should we support this kind of system? Or do we want a cheap toaster, humidifier, swimming pool, or violin, at the lowest possible cost?

@Seraphim. Could that be because your company has been under-cut by China?

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 08:40 PM · What happens to the workers when a boycott hits, and nobody buys their instruments?

Do they keep their jobs? Do they collect unemployment?

Yes, losing their jobs after losing their customers is a much nobler way to starve. Thanks to the enlightened individuals in the West.

September 28, 2016 at 08:50 PM · Seraphim, They get a job at the new Iphone factory

Stuart, then why don't you just send a check straight to the workers in China if you care about them so much, buying their violin they get less than 5c on the dollar!!

September 28, 2016 at 08:59 PM · So is your solution is to appease your conscience by saying, even if they are only paid 5c at least they have a job. I'm doing my bit and getting cheap goods. We all win...

What I believe will made a difference is to vote with your wallet.

Cheers Carlo

September 28, 2016 at 09:06 PM · When buying Chinese you're actually paying more to the factory owner who is exploiting the workers than you are to the workers, you're supporting the whole system that allows those workers to be overworked, underpaid and exploited, if you didn't buy their violins the workers might go back to work on the farm their family has run for centuries. How do you possibly know if you're actually benefiting those workers at all. They might be working double overtime because you and your friends ordered extra violins. One thing for sure their standard work week is 60+hrs.

September 28, 2016 at 09:08 PM · Xiang Yu plays a Strad. I don't know which one on that video because he's gone through a bunch of them!

September 28, 2016 at 09:08 PM · This thread (threads) is epic, hahahaha. As I know the future, I'll say I like patties well made.

September 28, 2016 at 09:09 PM · Returning to the topic of violins, Lyndon's comments about his restoration job on an older violin made me think about the economics and time involved.

As far as I know, for most luthiers, bench time is valuable. That's time to make, as well as time to service existing customers (rehairs, adjustments, minor repairs, etc.). Restorations are time-consuming and unpredictable in their results.

Is it economically more viable for a shop to just bring in Chinese (or Eastern European etc.) inventory that just needs some modest set-up work (which could be done by apprentice or at least less-skilled luthiers), than it is to seek out antiques and restore them (requiring a lot more finicky and skilled work)?

I'm specifically talking about student-grade instruments -- call it $5k and less, and especially $1k and less?

September 28, 2016 at 09:12 PM · Personally, I care about Lyndon, and don't want him to be overworked.

I encourage everyone here to not do business at his shop to keep him from being oppressed.

Don't worry, he can go farm the fields or something.

@Lydia, obviously it is much more cost effective to bring in the Chinese violins and set them up. That's why we have Shar's own line of instruments, Jay Haide is another house brand, etc etc.

September 28, 2016 at 09:13 PM · "When buying Chinese you're actually paying more to the factory owner who is exploiting the workers than you are to the workers"

Isn't that how it is everywhere, though? Who gets the million-dollar bonuses in the West, the workers, or the bosses who own the business? Who gets the higher salaries? By that argument, workers, who do all the hard work, should get the big bucks, and the bosses should only get a pittance?

September 28, 2016 at 09:16 PM · Careful now, Fox....I smell a Revolution!

September 28, 2016 at 09:25 PM · Well at my shop there's just me, no boss to take all the profits, no underpaid underlings to do all the cheap stuff, no media company to take all the shxt directed at me and my business by violinst.com yahoos, who as a rule tend not to be serious musicians when you read their profile......

And no my $5000 stereo did not cost me $5000, I built and designed the audiophile transmission speakers which would retail for about $4500 at a store, using French Audax drivers, cost me $300 in parts, the amp is a Luxman but cost me $100, the turntable $100, the cassette deck $20, and the tuner $30, so no I am not even petty bourgeois

September 28, 2016 at 09:39 PM · Talk about markup!!!

About $500 in parts, and you value it at $5000!

I guess you know all about that famous 1000% markup you're always going on about!

September 28, 2016 at 09:55 PM · I built the boxes myself, designed and built the xover myself with an anechoic chamber, in todays dollars the parts, if you payed someone to build the complex 4 1/2' tall boxes would be about $1000 standard wholesale markup 4x the cost of manufacture you get to $4500 pretty quick

September 28, 2016 at 10:06 PM · Hahahahaha, Seraphim, stop it, burns are not meant to be permanent!

September 28, 2016 at 10:06 PM ·

September 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM · My speakers, a divider inside the box forms an 8 ft long tunnel that opens at the back allowing sound to be delayed long enough to be in phase and almost double the bass around 40hx, its called a transmission line, and they are about the best sounding enclosure for bass but rather rare because they require a big complex box. Here's a picture, titanium coated tweeter no longer available made by Audax in France.

http://s102.photobucket.com/user/taylorviolins/media/Personal%20pics/DSC_9938_zps82e35d8f.jpg.html?o=75

September 28, 2016 at 10:14 PM · Cool!

How many different channels can you playback there?

Is it only stereo?

I see that could be a Dolby 7.1 audio system (yeah, all together, but who cares, what's important is 1 channel per speaker)

By the way, in this violin of yours:

http://s102.photobucket.com/user/taylorviolins/media/April%2031%20Violin%20shots/FrntFholes.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12

Is it me or the E string's loop is INSIDE the cylinder's middle perforation?

Shouldn't the loop go all around the cylinder?

September 28, 2016 at 10:25 PM · I just have stereo, and a stereo feed from my computer, which has a cd player, I don't own a television so surround sound is sorta out of the question, I was really into designing audiophile speakers back in the early 80s, working for a company called Speakercraft.inc I spent a full 6 months designing this particular speaker using their anechoic chamber and Scandinavian test rig set up. By the time I finished designing it they had decided to stop selling their own brand and retail other people's brands, so my speaker never went into production, rather disappointing but they let me keep the prototype, I traded it for a 68 Volvo, and years later built a better version with upgraded speakers, and that's what I have now. Frequency response was 40-20,000hx +-2db

September 28, 2016 at 10:46 PM · Tim it appears to me the wire is going fully around the pin, look closely, that little thread you see poking out in the middle is not the main wires.

Its remotely possible the loop was just too small to go over the entire pin, in which case I may have looped it over half, I remember doing that once, didn't have a problem with the loop breaking.

I almost exclusively use ball end e strings.

September 28, 2016 at 10:52 PM · "By the way, in this violin of yours:

http://s102.photobucket.com/user/taylorviolins/media/April%2031%20Violin%20shots/FrntFholes.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12

Is it me or the E string's loop is INSIDE the cylinder's middle perforation?

Shouldn't the loop go all around the cylinder?"

I've seen a lot of people do it like that, but yes I think it should go all around too but sometimes it just doesn't fit.

September 28, 2016 at 10:55 PM · Hm.. It may just be me, but is anyone else typing here with computers either made in China, or with materials manufactured in China? We're all giving into Chinese employers to oppress their workers then, right?

September 28, 2016 at 10:57 PM · I've done the halfway thing too. No problems so far.

September 28, 2016 at 11:01 PM · I didn't know there were incompatibilities between the loop-pin connection. God, nothing's standard, gotta hate it.

September 28, 2016 at 11:09 PM · Pin sizes vary, and loop sizes vary, sometimes the two don't work together, that's why I prefer ball end, even then half the time you have to increase the width of the slot for the lower strings, if you use fine tuners on them.

September 28, 2016 at 11:22 PM · How many "Rocky" movies were there?

Will there be yet another Chinese violin bashing thread?

Seems dangerously close!

September 29, 2016 at 12:13 AM · The problem is I always order ball end e strings but sometimes the supplier screws up and sends loop end, one trick I've learned remove the ball from an old string and maneuver it into the loop with a pair of long nose pliers, presto, ball end string.

PS if you really want to see some serious BS, wait for Dexters comment 102 below, which was evidently added with the moderators approval??? after the topic was archived. HOW DO THEY DO THAT???

September 29, 2016 at 12:15 AM · Tesla was an immigrant, Stuart you philistine! You have betrayed your country!!

;)

September 29, 2016 at 12:21 AM · We made it to 100. Again. Anyone for more?

Cheers Carlo

September 29, 2016 at 12:51 AM · Summing things up here... Chinese violins are a better bang for your buck, whether you're looking for a $300 violin, or a $20,000 violin made from the best aged European spruce and maple. As for German trade violins, the stuff that is 100 years old is slightly better quality than the mid 20th century stuff. Still, the modern Chinese workshop violins are generally better than all trade German violins due to modern technology and today's better understanding/knowledge of how to build a good instrument. Carlo's motive for boycotting Chinese violins is mainly political, and stems from a baseless fear that the Chinese are going to take over the world and impose on him their genes (and jeans), lifestyle, food, etc. Globalization is here so live with it. Some of you were talking about dogs here, so I'll mention lamb. The stuff imported here to the U.S. from New Zealand and Australia is not as good as the locally raised lamb. Many here in the U.S. will pay a premium for U.S. lamb, from Colorado especially, rather than buying the cheaper stuff that has traveled thousands de of miles. Americans pay for quality, regardless of where it's made.

October 18, 2016 at 11:03 PM · Oh please please Carlo start a fresh new thread! I want to jump on the bandwagon this time. You, me, Lyndon, three peas in a pod. Solidarity brother.

October 19, 2016 at 01:51 AM · Looks like someone here deleted all of her posts and made room for more Chinese violin trashing. Bring it on!

October 19, 2016 at 02:07 AM · Actually a rather offensive poster had all his posts deleted by the management. There's no way to delete your own posts, only possible to delete the text of your own posts.

October 19, 2016 at 07:35 AM · @Jeff. I think enough blood has been spilled. Let's have a new uncontroversial thread, maybe along the lines of, "Who here supports Donald Trump?"

Cheers Carlo

October 19, 2016 at 07:59 AM · how about a thread by Carlo; "Let me count the ways I'm glad to live in Trump free New Zealand". Assuming your not a smoker, if you were, you wouldn't want to live in NZ, the government's set a goal of $100/pack!!

October 19, 2016 at 08:24 AM · I also agree that we have had enough of controversial threads, mainly because this allows one or two posters to dominate and stir things up to such an extent that people can be banned for no good reason. Certain people have been targeted because they either make new instruments or in other cases are strong advocates for new instruments.

Most people are however quite reasonable and make value judgements, taking into account instruments of all ages. However, these threads, however tongue in cheek and innocently created, can bring out the worst in one or two people, and this colours the whole debate. We should really be respectful of other's opinions, and have a civilised debate, rather than slagging off whole continents and vast sections of the human race, who may have only made the mistake of trying to sell us their products, as well as other people on the forum who may have a preference for something that may be alien to one or two extremist views.

October 19, 2016 at 08:27 AM · And you should speak, Peter, you're one of the most guilty parties.

October 19, 2016 at 08:45 AM · Making it personal yet again Lyndon.

October 19, 2016 at 08:57 AM · Yeah, what did you just do in the post above????/

October 19, 2016 at 09:09 AM · A very good post Peter. I was reading through some of the okder topics Liz has brought to life again and there was one reply from you that I thought was so funny in which you told someone that 80% of what you write is meant to be funny or is just rubbish then you say no 100% of what you say is rubbish. You are so very funny.

October 19, 2016 at 09:12 AM · Well that part makes sense, Peter and I can't get along because Peter has almost nothing but negative things to say about antique violins (and me for that matter), now I see he was just trying to be funny, pardon me if I don't get the joke.

October 19, 2016 at 01:06 PM · Lyndon, I was not getting personal as I mentioned no names and my post was generalisation and not specific to any one person, if you can understand that.

October 19, 2016 at 01:10 PM · Who do you take me for, a fool, it was pretty damn obvious you were referring to me, and yes you were getting personal as you always do.

October 19, 2016 at 01:36 PM · Damned by your own post

October 19, 2016 at 02:12 PM · "... almost nothing but negative things to say about antique violins ..."

Riiiiight, but bashing Chinese instruments with a broad brush is OK?

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