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Recording of me playing Bach Chaconne -- Feedback Requested

From Gene Huang
Posted June 13, 2012 at 04:08 PM

Recently, I ordered a Realist Acoustic/Electric Violin. I received it yesterday and recorded myself playing the Chaconne. Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LrP3ptiVCE

I would appreciate your constructive feedback!

UPDATED August 16, 2012
I posted a newer recording to YouTube a few days ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PerYlMhKoQ8

I think you play the piece really cleanly, to my taste a bit too cautiously, I would have appreciated some brisker style of bowing in the appropriate places, but that is my personal taste. also in the quiet slow parts of the piece you could use more bow (it's not because the music is quiet that you have to play it with very little bow).

again, respect!

I'm so glad that you decided to return to play the violin, you play admirably well

Very good !

P.s. the girl looks like a curious cat =D

So, I hope you won't mind some comments from an inferior player. I'll leave others to criticize your shifts and intonation, because you know that a few of them are not perfect, but they are much better than I could do!

First, your overall conception of the piece is very good, it gives a good impression of the character that Bach intended in my opinion.

There are a few places where you nailed the contrasting moods (e.g., 7:45) but also some places where I thought they could be more prominent (at 4:00 the runs can be more brilliant, but as Jean pointed out you need to be brave about that, listen to Milstein for a good example; and then contrasting more to the lyrical passage at 4:20; and then at 4:30 it could be even more mysterious). Look for those opportunities. You've got the skill to bring it off. Perhaps these are limitations of your acoustic-electric violin?

You're tall and fit (more envy here!), and generally your posture is great but I noticed your head and violin drooped a bit when things got tough, almost as though you were reading the music off the floor. That's a natural response but it can create even more strain that compounds the technical/musical problems you're solving.

One thing I did notice is that you tend to turn your torso toward the left with up-bows and toward the right with down-bows. I learned at one point that it's natural to sway a bit with the music, but this direction is counter-productive because your violin is running in the same direction as your bow, in affect forcing the bow to chase it, and because it tends to make the audience seasick if it's too much.

Also often your vibrato seems "nervous", kind of fast-and-shallow. Maybe that's what you prefer for this kind of music but I think there are places where changing to a wider, richer vibrato would bring tonal contrast. This is a feature of Anne-Sophie Mutter's playing that always strikes me -- the variation in her vibrato seems (to me) uncommonly good even among the top players.

Finally, is that your daughter? She is adorable. We are similarly blessed in this way!

'58 ish slows down way too much.

It's really beautiful, but every phrase is played in the exact same way, which can become monotonous. Mark off the phrases and think about the character of each one. For some reason, I always think of the Chaconne and Hansel and Gretel. The beginning is the abject poverty they live in, around m 34 is where the parents hatch their plan to leave the kids in the woods. Around 49 they realize they're lost, 58 is where they find the gingerbread house, etc. The story doesn't go through the whole Chaconne, just the first 100 or so bars. Stories always help me keep track of the different voices in the music. Does anyone else do that?

Anyway, David Oistrach sways back and forth like you, but not all the time. The sway is a legit technical move, but it shouldn't be used all the time. Paul is right, you can't do that through an entire performance.

On the parts where you are digging in and dipping the violin downward, instead of going down and digging in, go up and out. It seems contrary to common sense, but it comes off better to the listener.

That was really amazing!! You should be proud. Your tone was beautiful, intonation was great. I really enjoyed listening- thanks for sharing. I'm working on the Chaconne and have lots of catching up to do!! Seriously great work.

@Andre Thanks! I'm also glad I returned to playing. ;)

@Paul Thanks so much for your detailed feedback. It's an interesting observation you made about how I turn my torso left on up-bows and right on down-bows. I'll have to watch for that and see how to fix it. I'll also work on creating more contrasting moods, my posture during tough passages, and a wider & richer vibrato. All very helpful suggestions. Thanks again! Yes, that was my daughter making a cameo LOL. :)

@Susannah I've never thought of the Chaconne with Hansel and Gretel. But I can see how thinking of a story line while playing can help to create different moods. I'll have to give that a try! Also, less swaying. This is not a surprise to me, as my wife has told me she gets sea-sick watching me play. :-P

Besides the intonation issues, the next thing that jumped out as something to work on is the phrasing. You sound too "up and down" or mechanical in many passages. Try to use much longer, more organic phrases instead of the shorter figures. Bringing out dynamic contrasts and articulation would help shape the phrases, too.

I would also think strategically about when to use vibrato and how much to use. In some places, using wider vibrato would help the notes ring, but in other spots you might consider slowing down the speed or eliminating it to match the mood that you're going for (e.g., 7:45).

You tend to favor playing in the upper part of the bow for most of the piece. Try to get more comfortable playing in the middle/lower part of the bow in some of the more robust, fleshy passages, so that you can take advantage of the full range of dynamics and colors. Getting familiar with the lower part of the bow could also help you achieve a rounder sound when you play down-bow chords, which often sound (and look) unnecessarily crunchy and vertical -- for those chords, remember to breathe and relax and think broader strokes.

All in all great respect! Its such a long piece and its spiced with difficult techniques wich you master very well. You also played very musical throughout and didn't fall in the technique trap. That is good, because a lack of confidence is poisen for solo bach!
I worked on the chaconne 2 months ago, but now decided for the siciliana of the g-minor because of the lenth and effort. I play Sibelius right now and just hadn't enough time for two such big works.

@Frieda Yes, I must admit that my vibrato is one area that I have not specifically focused on. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'll also work on trying to use the middle/lower part of my bow with broader strokes, especially for the down-bow chords. I'm not quite sure I understand your explanation of shaping the phrasing, but I think the jist of it is that I should use more dynamic contrast.

@Simon I have it memorized. I realize now that my posture at times makes it look like I am reading notes off the floor. And I see that it could also cause the bow to slide forward (as well as cause muscle strain, as Paul pointed out). Regarding the tempo, I could probably take it a bit faster, and I agree it would help it feel more natural. I'll work on that. At the 4 min. mark, I usually hit those notes in tune, but not that time around. ;) Same thing at the 5 min. mark. Holding the violin still during the arpeggios -- now why didn't I think of that? Great suggestion. Also, to feel the bow more and risk more. At 11:50, I made a conscious decision to play the arpeggio pattern that way, but I've also played it the other way. Actually, I really like the idea of playing this section the same way as the earlier argeggio section (like the way Kyung-Wha Chung plays it). But, it's much harder to do... At 13:40, you are right -- I need to practice this part more to get it in tune. Chords -- Don't hammer them. I agree, I'll have to work on that. Btw, my recording setup is pretty simple -- The violin is a Realist Acoustic/Electric and is connected to a Fishman amplifier. Other than that, I'm just using my iPhone 4S to video record (and audio record over the air). Do you have any suggestions for how to improve my "recording studio"? :) Thanks so much for your write-up!

As for the piece and tips on improvement... never erase a base note from the piece. Meaning, if the chords are simplified to a triad, the bass note should be there. You got rid of some key bass notes a few times, maybe it's for interpretive reasons, but don't do it. The basso continuo is universal to all baroque music and it sounds like a hole is in your music without that foundation.

The last thing I have to say is an interpretation thing. Some violinists roll the chords down, but I would never do that because Bach himself was primarily an organist. Sure, he wrote for violin, but it's almost a universal concept to roll the chords up for piano and organ if the player has a small hand. Itzhak Perlman is one example of a player that does roll the chords up.

Good job on memorizing it. For some reason, ever since I started piano, I have been having the hardest time memorizing anything on violin. It's just not the same I guess.

@Ricky Thanks for your reply! I must admit that you're speaking in sort of a foreign language to me LOL. I'm about to head off to work, so I will look up some of your terms and respond to you a bit later...

@Ricky I had to look up "DAW". :) It does sound like a good way to record. However, the Zoom mic that Simon mentioned might work better for my purposes since I like to record in my entry hallway, where I don't keep my PC or Mac. You wrote: "You got rid of some key bass notes a few times, maybe it's for interpretive reasons, but don't do it." Can you point out specific examples in my video where this happens? Thanks!

@Simon Rolling a chord up means starting with the lowest note of the chord at the beginning of the bow stroke and ending with the highest note at the end of the bow stroke. Rolling it down is the opposite. The Realist Violin model I have is the RV-4. It has a pickup built in. You can find more info if you Google "Realist RV4".

First of all, I admire your tone quality and your intonation is really quite good. There are a few spots, as people have noticed, but they don't jump out. Also, you have obviously figured out a good setup since you're not straining towards the end of the piece. This piece can be exhausting!

A general comment about phrasing. You definitely have a good sense of what you want to do phrasing-wise. And most of the time it comes across and sounds great. But there were a few times where I felt like you reached the peak of your phrase before you actually got there. What I mean is that you were increasing volume/direction/tempo/vibrato to a climax, but maxed out before getting there. Then you'd sustain until you got to the top. If you could hold back on some of the volume/direction/tempo/vibrato until you got all the way to the top it would have more impact. While this is a minor comment to an otherwise great performance, I think this little change would make a really big difference.

Please take my comment with a grain of salt. Congratulations on being able to tackle such a monumental work of art.

Terry

Regarding my setup and posture, I *was* starting to feel some strain in the back of my neck towards the end of the piece. However, raising my violin and keeping it level definitely helped. I also do use a shoulder rest, and I noticed that you don't use one. I tried sans SR once, and it was really uncomfortable for me. I don't think I could ever do it for a prolonged period of time.

I'll post another recording again later, as I think I've made some good progress already by focusing on the advice from this forum. I do want to buy a separate mic first, and I'm leaning towards a Zoom H2n. Btw, what camera did you use for your recent recording? The picture and sound quality are excellent.

You seem to get around the instrument more or less pretty well - I wouldn't bother changing anything unless you don't feel like you can fix it without doing something radical (like removing the SR).

The recording device is not mine, it's a cellist friend of mine who recorded it. Looking forward to seeing/hearing your next rendition! :)

Terry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PerYlMhKoQ8

Still a work in progress, but I think it's an improvement over the last one. I tried to focus on the suggestions given by folks here, but I apologize if I wasn't able to incorporate all of them... Fire away! :)

One question: How many takes did you make of this piece with camera? Is it easy for you to play it in that quality as a whole?

I really like it musically and technically what you do, the posture is also much better than in the first clip. Its just silly to say now "bar xx intonation" "bar xx tempo" etc. just listen yourself and mark it in the score. I would advice you to play a different bach now and come back to the chaconne later. Maybe you can play the whole 2. partita in connection? Or take a whole different one? They are all amazing! And you learn a lot about the chaconne while playing the others. Still the chaconne is one of the deepest and pure music for violin out there and always a piece that you will come back to!
May I ask you how much you practice in general, scales, etudes, other literature, chamber music, orchestra and how much time you spend on each? Its just easier to give advice then!

edit: my suggestion would be: practice the "easy" places. One can hear, that the difficulties are well prepared, but your intonation slips sometimes in places where its not necessary. This is a very common problem, because one concentrates more on the difficult passages!

Thank you for your comments!

you wrote:
> How many takes did you make of this piece with camera? Is it easy for you to play it in that quality as a whole?

I can almost always run the entire piece this way (or better) in practice. With the camera going, it's a different story -- I will usually make one or two mistakes that the perfectionist in me cannot tolerate. Earlier, I made about a half dozen other run-through attempts (spread over 2 recording sessions) that I wasn't quite happy with. I usually attempt 3 run-throughs at a time before I'm spent mentally and physically. This latest run-through happened to be the first one of the day that I shot it, and I decided to just stop there and post it to YouTube.

you wrote:
> I would advice you to play a different bach now and come back to the chaconne later. Maybe you can play the whole 2. partita in connection? Or take a whole different one? They are all amazing!

I did learn a handful of the other Bach S&Ps in high school that I plan to go back and revisit, starting with the Gigue from Partita #2. And, yes, I do plan to learn the entire Partita #2 eventually. Perhaps I'm doing it in reverse order! :)

you wrote:
> May I ask you how much you practice in general, scales, etudes, other literature, chamber music, orchestra and how much time you spend on each?

I practiced my scales and etudes in high school, and I was active in youth orchestras for many years back then. Since I only have 20-30 minutes to practice these days, I'm a bit embarrassed to say that I haven't practiced scales/etudes, and I've mainly only been focusing on the Bach Chaconne. I do understand the importance of practicing scales/etudes. In fact, about 6 months ago, I bought myself new Schradieck and Kreutzer books, but sadly, they've been sitting unopened. Although I've often wondered how much scale-like / etude-like exercises I'm getting just practicing the Chaconne... Also, recently, I've been learning a couple pop tunes arranged by Adam DeGraff.

Thanks again for your comments. They are very much appreciated!

A well respected professional violinist recently told me that most people these days prefer hearing the A tuned to 442Hz or even higher. For this recording I tuned my A higher than I usually do, which is probably why you are hearing some of those notes a semi-tone higher. I can assure you I know those should be C naturals, as opposed to C sharps! :)

But definitely thanks for the feedback. I now know to be careful how much to deviate from A440, as I'm probably pushing (or exceeding) the upper limit with this recording...

I asked about how much takes you need, because i recently recorded the presto from the g-minor sonata and it is so hard to get a take, wich is really satisfying (didn't get one in my first session). But being able to play the chaconne like that or even better in the practice room (but that of course doesn't count much ;), is a big achievment!

I agree with the recommendation to move on to something else. You know you will come back to this. Maybe some people here with experience teaching advanced players can recommend a concerto for you to work on, I think that would be useful. If you know the Gigue and the Chaconne, the rest of the Partita will not pose any significant problem to you. With your skill even at 30 minutes a day you'll have the rest of it sewn up in a few weeks. Of course it is lovely to play, so I can understand you'd want to. (I am working on it -- but not the Chaconne, it's quite too hard for me yet, even the Gigue is just a little beyond my skill). So if you want to increase your Bach chops, I think maybe one of the other of the S&P would offer you more challenge.

John -- Yes, very interesting, this #8 note. Listening to my recording again, I can definitely see what you mean as it now sticks out for me as well. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I agree that I can hit that note a bit (a lot?)flatter...

Paul -- Really appreciate your comments. I've been focusing on the Chaconne for about a year (wow, time flies), so I do intend to move onto something new now (my family will thank me for that as well LOL). The Chaconne is a piece I will return to again and again.

you wrote:
> ...Most times we might only find out which in a masterclass.

I think Terry also mentioned it in his recent thread -- this forum *is* like having your own masterclass!

So, I hope you don't mind what I have to say next, which is meant to be constructive.

To my ears, you still have many things to work on. One thing is intonation. I'm not talking abut 415 vs. 440, baroque or creative. I'm talking about relative intonation. There are often spots where you sound fine for a few bars, and then you slip for several notes. This happens frequently enough that it makes me think it's a systematic issue in your playing. To my ears, it doesn't sound like a conscious artistic decision but amateur carelessness that really distracted me. You need to work on scales and be your worst critic on every single note. Make sure to self-correct yourself as soon as you hear something go even slightly off. When practicing, for example, play adjacent notes as double-stops and make sure you hear them ringing. Be picky about intonation on everything else you work on so that it eventually becomes muscle memory. When you come back to playing the Chaconne, completely in tune, it will be even more resonant and powerful.

Your phrasing and bowing have improved a ton from the first take. But some phrases sound tentative, lacking conviction. Experiment with other pieces before returning to the Chaconne again. You could work on an "easier" movement like the Allemande, or a Kreisler piece. Try singing the passage. Then translate in terms of timing, pacing (e.g., where does the piece climax?), articulation, etc. Or be your own conductor and approach it as if you're conducting yourself. I can tell you're making an effort to phrase, but it's not quite convincing yet.

Great work so far. Keep it up, and you will be awesome.

John -- :)

Frieda -- I am aware that my relative intonation could use improvement. I like your suggestion of playing adjacent notes as double-stops to hear them ringing. I'll have to try that. I completely agree with you regarding the phrasing as well. And yes, working on some other pieces before coming back should help... This is great feedback. Thanks!!

this is an issue every serious amateur encounters when playing pieces without rests inside a movement like chaconne or elgars violin sonata.
virtuosic music without pauses, is easier for those who do their 8 hours of work out daily...

i find what you say interesting...you are sort of implying that Gene has inherently good sense of intonation but that it falters due to flailing stamina at points, ie focusing physically and mentally? its an interesting and not oft mentioned possible factor..if we listen to a lot of the clip, it shows that Gene has generally good intonation (plus admirable fluency, attractive tone...etc)...but at some points, it falters. Gene, i hope you don't mind being mentioned in the third-person...

again, Sverker, can stamina be taught/inculcated into non-professional-level amateurs/students without this 8-hour worth of work a day?

what amateurs can take advantage of, would be to leave the "perfect" for the professional artists and future music robots, and compensate with all what is permitted for amateurs --the egocentric self-expression that ignores "what the public wants and pays for" or limitations to "reading the composers mind" (which anyway is a pseudoscience since most composers that are listenable are dead).

With Frieda I agree on that Gene can make it perfect. but he should not be scared if it will take much longer than expected-- you dont build an arnold scwartzenegger in one day.

Hmm, good question if one can teach non-pros strength & stamina, Tammuz. What about steroids? :)

I was wondering what you meant about Arnold Schwartzaneggar when it comes to playing the violin. When Milstein performed the Chaconne at the age of 83, was he at the level of Schwartzaneggar? ;) I don't think that Milstein would have won any bodybuilding championships when he was 83.

Perfection is not achievable. As soon as your concept of perfection is reached, you've generated a new concept of perfection. Even professionals are not perfect. If Gene (or any professional) had the benefit of a recording studio and could splice cuts together, he could achieve a form of technical perfection.

I think that Gene would be better served to focus on the things that amateurs are so fortunate as to be able to focus on, the music. Professionals are forced to play under certain conditions, play certain things, travel, etc. etc. The wonderful thing about Gene's playing is he has no such constraints. He can play whatever and whenever he wants to.

Intonation and sound is always something that can and should be worked on. I think what needs more work is the direction of the phrasing, and exaggerating the dynamics more. I'd like to see a wider palette of sound. But that said, Gene is still playing fantastically.

Terry

I agree that the phrasing and dynamics are probably more reasonable to work on for a short-term goal. The intonation thing is more of a long-term goal.

No one is demanding perfection. That's just unrealistic. I mentioned Gene's intonation because it sticks out in his playing, and it sounds like he already has the ability to improve it. I've studied with a few teachers who would not let intonation slide, and yet they also worked on phrasing in the same lesson. While these people taught in conservatories, that doesn't mean amateurs don't also deserve the same kind of feedback if they seek it and are capable of doing something about it.

It really helps merely to become more aware of an issue in one's playing and to try to improve it, including in the background. So, Gene can focus on phrasing while remembering to adjust intonation slips when they happen. Or sometimes he can take 10 minutes to work solely on intonation, like with a scale. Then back again to the phrasing. In the long term, he will become more consistent, his sound will be better, and things will become easier to play.

To summarize, the areas for me to focus on are intonation (within chords as well as in general), phrasing, dynamics (especially in the softer range), and perhaps some variation in tempo. These are all suggestions that I completely agree with. Working on scales and other pieces will help as well.

Roy -- I found your recording of Chaconne on YouTube and listened to it. Bravo to you too! Btw, I was born in Pittsburgh and lived there for 8 years. That's where first started learning the violin. Go Steelers!

Do you expect to outrun a 83 years old world champion marathon runner too? I wouldn't. I see the 85 years old ladies biking uphill when I jump off my bike :)

I think that Milstein was great at 83 because of his muscle memory, ears, musical knowledge and his musical mind, not because of his physical gifts or stamina at that point. I think he just knew how to play.

Otherwise I would advice you not to laugh at Swedish 85 years old ladies. You don't know what energy is within them :)

hi tammuz,
the strength & stamina I talk about is purely physical: the sport aspect of music playing, nothing else.

I do believe amateurs can deliver a "near-100%" acceptably-intoned chaconne. Sure, when I say 8 hours daily I exaggerate, but I am sure that a large part of being professional means having the "physique"built for music playing. what I think, is that an amateur has to realize that if he/she can't afford to practice several hours per day, he/she has to invest much longer time into such a masochistic piece as the Chaconne, if he intends to play it "perfectly". at this point, its no longer about musical talent, but about raw, physical hard-work (same as on gym). this is also why I, personally, will prefer to pick pieces in the future that includes a couple of bars pauses here and there.

________________________________________

I guess I could still use a little clarification of what you mean by stamina and the physical aspect of playing the violin. To me, the violin is mostly mental. The physical aspect is something we are trying to get rid of, but is often creeping into our playing. Milstein at 83 had all but eliminated the physical aspect and achieved maximum efficiency. Or if you think I'm missing something, educate me!!

One should never mess with any 85 year old woman, be they Swedish or otherwise. They know too much!!

Terry

Now to the next point. Is there any amateur competition for violin? There are lots of them for pianists. Gene, you must-- you MUST-- perform Chaconne publicly.

Sverker -- I appreciate your vote of confidence in my public performing! I have to admit that the last time I played for an audience (Meditation from Thais, last November), I crashed horribly. My left hand felt stiff, and my bow arm was a jittery mess!

Roy -- Even in high school, where I had more opportunities to perform, I never got comfortable with it. I am coming to understand that not only does performance take practice, but it takes building up gradually, starting with small steps. The art of performance is yet another challenging dimension of this wonderfully complex instrument!

Bart -- Thank you!

Gene, there's still something I cannot get over. You took a break for 25 years and the first thing you decided to play after picking up your violin again was the Chaccone? That is just so amazing, you are a true inspiration.

I think you meant to say bar 47? I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say the next higher D is a "quick, quiet deep breath you do when you cannot hold it any longer". Do you mean that there should be a pause between the low D and the high D, and the high D should be quicker/lighter/softer than the following notes that run down? I listened to Igor Bezrodny's recording. It was fantastic.

Paul -- It's true that I stopped practicing daily for 24 years. However, during that time I would take my violin out every few months and fiddle around for an hour or so. I had invested so much into learning the violin from ages 5 - 18, that I didn't want to let it go completely. Also, there was the occasional wedding (of a family member or friend) or other event that I would get asked to play for, and I would "cram" for the 2 weeks leading up to it. And when my son started taking lessons 6 years ago, I would help him along too. Last year was when I decided to make a sincere effort again to get better. Bach Chaconne has always been one of my favorites, which makes practicing so enjoyable. If you were inspired by me, then I am honored!

John -- I agree. Bezrodny's start of the D major section is very dreamlike. It is so spiritual and reflective. I am working on getting to sound like that!