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Measuring progress as an adult re-beginner & teacher 'fit'

Practicing: One year anniversary of private lessons - determining progress/pace

From Ophelia Larson
Posted October 14, 2009 at 05:12 PM

I'm coming up on my one year private lesson anniversary as an adult re-beginner. I'm trying to assess my progress and how well my teacher and I 'fit' together. I know the answer to this is probably going to be 'it depends', but do you all have any advice for me? What is the best way to determine sufficient progress and pace (if there is even a way to measure this)?

The primary reason I ask is that I have the feeling I'm not being pushed enough to progress more quickly. But obviously I can't view my own playing all that objectively. I recently joined a chamber group and have been handed some challenging-for-me pieces. In working on pieces that are well beyond what I'm working on in private lessons, I have noticed a significant improvement in my playing- and so has my teacher. But we continue to work at a very slow, detailed level on easier pieces for months. I've dropped a few hints and asked about the plan, but haven't gotten a clear answer - just that we'll probably wrap up the pieces I've been working on next week (and the same answer the following week etc.).  I kind of feel trapped. I want to perfect my playing on the simpler pieces, but I'm growing restless and really want to move on to more difficult work because I saw what an impact it had.

Help?

I just celebrated my 2nd year of relearning.  What ettudes are you working on?  And how long was the hiatus?  Before the Hiatus when did you first start and when did you stop?

I am an adult learner, and have been studying privately for 2+ years.  You didn't say whether your teacher has been working with you on the pieces you are studying in your chamber group.  If not, and you want her to be, then I'd be concerned based on that.  I too have been working for months on just a few pieces, but I understand that a solid basis will stand me in good stead later.  What keeps me going is that my teacher knows my musical interests and supplements my exercises with pieces that reflect those interests.

We have worked on the chamber pieces together - I'd say about every other lesson since the group formed. 

As far as Etudes, I'm still working in Wohlfart Book 1. I started when I was 9 and played through high school (but the last years did not have private lessons). So it was a 17 year break.

We spend a lot of time in my lessons working on bowing - very important I know - and I fully realize I need to improve, but it just seems like we could move on to different pieces while doing that. I will have to find a way to discuss it with my teacher, because I'm finding myself not wanting to practice the two simple pieces we've been working on since August.

Hi!

I am not a re-relearner, but I started late, when I was 36, though I have been with a 3 teachers, but the last one lasted for 3 years. The last few months were tough, it was in a way that it seems that we both have nothing to bring to the table so to speak. I mean I felt that we are not going no where, and I have no space to take it. Maybe her decision to stop teaching gave me an oppotunity to think what I really need or looking for a new teacher this time.

I found one, she's from Ukraine, at first I thought she has no plan, but she does, we worked and still working on my right hand, though I worked really hard on it from the last teacher, the present teacher are more adamant to work on it more. Every nuances are mentioned and in the process of fixing it, with tons of etudes and exercises. I could say that I play better this time, I am more relax and I listen to my body and my instruments more. Of course I have to give credit to my last teacher all her effort for the techniques and all, but the fruits of those work has come, with a new teacher, a new approach to learn.

I told her that I am not aiming that high, in terms of playing, all I want is to play decent, and she said, and I quote" Oh no, not because you join an amateur orchestra doesn't mean you sound like amateur, no one will raise your standard except yourself, and everytime you are given a chance to play, play at your best, because your best is always above amateur, and playing at your best, you have to work really, really hard"

So, I guess, with the other thread about late starters, its not about how late or early you started to play, its about, learning and working on it the best you could, that's the bottom line anyway.

Dr. Pinell had me on Wohlfahrt book one and Schradiek book one and bowing was what we worked on also.  I began at 10 stopped at 15, restarted at 18 in college on 1/2 scholarship that I won and the only private lessons I ever had was 6 months before auditioning for the scholarship.  Then 23 years later I am at UW with Dr. Pinell.

If it's any concellation, I felt the same way.  And many relearners voice this here on v.com.  A student should feel comfortable to ask her/his teacher questions.  Ask what are our goals, what goals have been met/not met yet and why do you (the teacher) say so?  Things may sound wonderful too us.  But the teacher has been at it continuous for alot longer than we have.  It is nice to know where we are, in the teachers opinion and or observation and where we are going.  what yet needs to be accomplished before the next step and why.

My two cents: No one should have to pay money for private lessons and not feel like their teacher isn't giving the motivation to continue lessons!  This is getting into the realm of the personal and may not apply to you, but I'm putting it out there as an example of what can be... My teacher says she enjoys teaching me, partly because she doesn't have to groom me for a profession as a violinist, which I assume most of her students aspire to.  She feels she can concentrate on whatever she thinks needs to make me the best violinist I can be.  But she doesn't "talk" down to me.  Right now she is working on some tough modern pieces to perform with the Berkeley Symphony (first violin part) and she takes time to show me the music, discuss the hard parts, and discuss her strategy for mastering them.  She does this on her own time, on top of my lesson time.  She realizes she has to keep me motivated.  So, Ophelia, I think you are right to be thinking about whether your teacher is the best fit for you.

Oops--re-reading your question, I realize I haven't said anything about determining pace.  I don't feel qualified to, any way.  But from what you said, satisfaction with your teacher seems be the overall theme.   Pace just seems to be a part of that.  If your teacher sees improvement from working on harder pieces, why can't SHE give you harder pieces?  You can practice a technique while working on several pieces just as well as by working on one piece.

I have a lot of empathy for adult beginners/returnees and their teachers. After a long school career, I found myself pretty much accidently w/a private studio which now includes several adults, widely varying ages, aims & backgrounds. While content isn't all that different, how I explain things seems to be. I offer lots of encouragement. I give assignments; I also suggest a lot of practice strategies. I recognize that all my students, any age, sometimes don't find enough time. I encourage my kid-students to try again. I certainly don't feel any more comfortable cracking the whip at adults than I would with kids. Sue 

Some are more cautious, others more risky. The good balance between the two is crucial!!! Ennough challenge to feel good but also work on good old things to learn to be solid. (Solidity comes when you are not always doing things that are at your extreme limit) 

Anne-Marie

I agree with most of what has been said here by others.  You are paying not only money, but also time and effort.  You must have a teacher you can talk to about your goals and how you will accomplish them.  It sounds to me that you need to find another teacher.  You might "interview" more than one.  Talk to them and maybe have one lesson with them, tell them your goals, and gauge their responses.

Now I will brag.  I have one adult rebeginner who is very goal directed.  He came to me and said that he had never learned good technique.  He wanted to start at the very beginning (Suzuki Book 1) and work his way up, always focusing on technique.  After one year with me, he told me that he had learned more about technique from me in one year than he had learned with his previous teacher in five years.  He is a rather easy student to teach because he is very  self-directed and goal-oriented.  At one time, I told him that he was spending more time on a given piece than my other students and that he could move on faster if he wanted to.  He said that he wanted to stick with a piece until he was sure that he got the maximum benefit from it.  At some lessons, I only give him positive feedback and validation.  Other times I find things that he needs to work on and suggest ways to do that.  In one case, we independently reached the same conclusion on what he should do:  go to a different book of etudes which would help him strengthen his area of need.  We even selected the same book independently.  I get a lot of satisfaction from teaching him.  We have a great relationship.

 This is a challenging question.  Do you keep a practice log?  I find it helpful to go back to my old practice logs and lesson notes and see what I was doing last year at this time, and the year before at this time.  I'm coming up on my 2-year anniversary of taking lessons again, and my 3-year anniversary of re-beginning (after a 7-year break when my kids were little).

Sometimes it's a bit embarrassing to see that I'm still having the same problems I was having last year.  But on the other hand, sometimes it's also kind of nice to see that the number of serious problems I have to deal with is not infinite, and I realize that while it's the same problem as last year, my view of it and approach to it is more nuanced (and hopefully more successful).

I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to discuss these issues with your teacher.  A good way to open the conversation might be do first do a self-assessment, on your own, and make a list of issues that you think are important and then articulate what progress you think you've made.  

For me, one of the items might go something like this.  Topic:  Vibrato.  Issues:  Was too tight, unreliable, always the same speed (too fast).  What have I been doing:  vibrato exercises with scroll against wall, scales with vibrato, bought a new violin (more responsive, I don't have to work as hard, keeps my hand looser), vibrato exercises on viola (makes the violin feel a lot easier).  My teacher has also pointed out that I tend to vibrate only from the note and above, which pulls the pitch sharp (and relates to another problem of mine:  intonation), so I have just become conscious of that recently, and when I do my vibrato exercises and scales with vibrato I make an effort to vibrate around the note in both directions.  How has my teacher helped me?  Suggested exercises, diagnosed problems.  Has my vibrato improved? (not enough)  Have I followed through consistently on the exercises? (not enough).  Hmm.  

I'd do the same kind of analysis for intonation (what is the problem?  what have I been doing?  how is it going?), and then I might talk about these at my next lesson.  Summarize for her, demonstrate how it's going, admit I've let the vibrato exercises slide more than I'd like, ask if I should do anything differently while practicing.  If I felt like my teacher wasn't interested, or wasn't engaged, or didn't have helpful diagnoses and/or suggestions during one of these conversations (but I feel I've been lucky, my teacher has always been interested, engaged, and helpful), then I'd start looking for another teacher.  

IMHO, Karen gave an excellent example on how to journal in a practice/lesson log.  And note whatever the teacher says, plays.

Karen- like a lot that you keep your own notes :) I hand a new spiral to every student, but w/most I do the writing. I have had JH/SH kids write their own assignments & comment on practice, & will consider expanding on that idea. At least give hints. / Re vibrato, in common practice, vibrato is from the pitch, below it & back to pitch again. "Above" or "around" sound out of tune to western ears. You can find other posts about that here. Sue

Wow thanks so much everyone. You've given me a lot to think about!

I'm happy to report that I spoke to my teacher at my lesson and played my heart out on the pieces. We were able to cross them off and put them into practice rotation. I think you all may have just given me the push to speak up, and to then play to the best of my ability to prove I was ready to move on. 

But, I will see how/if my teacher changes the pace of my lessons going forward. I was assigned a new piece alongside the five+ pieces I am working on for chamber group. I like the idea of a written log and a few months ago began recording myself to see if I could hear my progress (hopefully I can be somewhat objective!).

Thanks again for all the great information - what would I do without Violinist.com?! 

Karen, you keep a very detailed, analytical practice log.  I think I  detect your training as a scientist here.  I keep a much less detailed practice log.  I think I'll start to do some of the things you do.

 Greetings,

>At least give hints. / Re vibrato, in common practice, vibrato is from the pitch, below it & back to pitch again. "Above" or "around" sound out of tune to western ears. You can find other posts about that here. Sue

Yep.  So the actual sound of the vibrato needs a reframe.

Cheers,

Buri

I love all the different responses on this thread so far.  Here's a couple of thoughts from my perspective.

I am a teacher who has  had experience teaching adult beginners.  They progress at all different paces.  In the beginning, things can seem a little slow because we are waiting for certain good basic habits to set up like concrete.  During this phase, things like a proper bow hold or left hand position will come together more quickly if they are given consistent mindful attention.  I tell my students what the objective is for the week (I.e. play all of your pieces with a curved bow thumb, or put your focus on sinking into the strings and creating a good tone).  They move forward when they succeed.  They are simple assignments, really, but what I'm also cultivating is an attitude of mindful, objective-oriented practicing methods.  Every single piece has a specific purpose, and during the lesson, I describe it and help them understand it.  Then they are to go home and practice that objective.  

In explaining the purpose of the assignment, I hope to eliminate any feelings of lack of purpose.  When they practice, they should be able to tell if they are achieving their goal or not.  I also try to give them a glimpse of how their current skill development fits into the bigger picture.  For instance, I tell them once they can hear the first three notes of three blind mice in tune, they can find those notes anywhere on the fingerboard.  Or, this slurring exercise is going to come in handy on this next piece.  If they are finding difficulty with something in their repertoire, I can always point them back to a few basics that we spent a lot of time developing.  Basic skills work like a bag of tricks.  Ask any college music student, and they will most likely have some story about how their professor made them go back and work on basics again.

I believe that a good teacher won't let you get away with neglecting the details.  I've been teaching long enough to see what happens when you do and when you don't.  It's simply amazing, how a good foundation will snowball a student into advanced repertoire almost effortlessly.  Suddenly, they sound very good on concertos the first run through, and only need to polish them.

I know, I know, I'm rambling.  I guess my point is, you should feel like you know each week what you are looking to achieve from your practice time.  This will eliminate feelings that you are being held back. 

Also, from what I've seen about playing chamber and orchestra music is, at the right time, if I throw a student in, sink or swim style, a lot of things will suddenly start to come together.  It's a good thing, but most of the time, the stuff is truly a bit over their heads.  They don't always sound awesome playing it.  But it's a good stretch.  Orchestra is good for moving forward with musical ideas and making music.  It's a rather "big picture" scope on music.  With it, you learn how to be part of a group and stay with a group, regardless of what comes out of your instrument.

I'm glad the chamber music has been a good experience for you.  Perhaps the best thing you can do about your private lessons is have a good talk about your desires and your teacher's expectations from you.  If your teacher doesn't have any objectives and can't really tell you why you are playing what you're playing, then you could be right in thinking you're being held back.  If your teacher does have a list of reasons for assigning the pieces you're being assigned, then make sure you understand specifically what you need to be working on, and be extra diligent to complete that objective to the best of your ability.  My motto is, those who prove themselves diligent with little will be given much.

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