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BBC Philharmonic Conductor Dies

News: Edward Downes, a renowned British conductor, dies at a suicide clinic with his wife.

From Jasmine Reese
Posted July 15, 2009 at 12:53 AM

Edward Downes, a renowned British conductor, dies at a suicide clinic with his wife.

I'm sad to see the couple go, but I understand and respect their decision to leave this world the way they did.  In a strange way, it was loving.  I believe that the choice about assisted suicide/euthanasia is very personal.  Many patients go into the hospital with "do not resuscitate" orders.  What is an acceptable quality of life for one person might be unacceptable for another.

"typically brave and courageous"..... says the article.

I disagree.    I am saddended that this couple felt so lost that they felt there was nothing else to live for...their kids for one.  I am saddened that we live in a society that thinks it is brave to kill oneself when there are so many people in this world who struggle everyday just to live because they know that despite the circumstances that they are in that life is too precious and meaningful... circumstances aside.  I was reading a book recently by a man who survived Auschwitz..  His job was to sort through the belongings of the people who had been gassed minutes before and put the items into piles...clothing, glasses, rings, fillings, etc.  It was a job he didn't ask for...one he was made to do...and one which allowed him to survive until the camp was liberated.  Now, after all these years, the guilt he feels for simply surviving is incredible but he has such a sense of the preciousness of life that I for one was simply astounded.  I think that is brave. Choosing to find the meaningfulness in life despite its pain and despite its sorrow. It is not my place to judge this couple...I cannot imagine the depression that must have made suicide seem like the right decision to them...but I certainly cannot hold them up as brave or valiant for that decision.  And shame on their family and shame on society as a whole that would support such a thing.  We should help them live...not help them die.  That happens without our help.

I agree with Thomas.  Being Bipolar I've lived with thoughts of ending it, but I have come to find the reason for living. Its a real shame that these folks didn't see life for the miracle that it is...even in the toughest of circumstances.

I also agree with Thomas. I thought these were very sad news.

So quick to judge other people using own yardstick. Everyone is coming from different place. Please leave the dead people and their family alone.

My yardstick Sam is my brother who has been battling depression and alcoholism for the past 18 years.  He started taking his depression out on my parents and then turned his anger onto himself.  After a stint in jail he started talking about killing himself and my parents.  Rather than sending him to a place that would assist him in killing himself we sent him to a place where he could get help dealing with his problems.  He wasn't happy about it at the time but now, instead of being dead with the assistance of other people, he is sober, holding a steady job,and loving playing with the two nephews my wife and and I provided for him. He spoils them rotten on their birthdays and does the best Donold Duck impression they have ever heard.  At one point he wanted to die...and take others with him. Thankfully that is not the case now.  Anyway...I think my yardstick is pretty accurrate.  It measures out for me the fact that suicide is neither brave or loving...it is selfish and hateful.

Intentional acts of self harm, and impulsive suicide is a long way from planned assisted suicide.  No person can be measured against the experience or feelings or triumphs of another.  If a person feels that what matters to them is now not attainable by them, that is for them to decide.  When working with people, often those who had had multiple suicide attempts, I was distressed by how often they would say that everyone would be better off without them, it would solve the problem for the others.  One young mum in particular was in a very sad and lonely place. She got through it, and years later saw me unexpectedly and said the thing that had changed it for her was me saying that  suicide NEVER helps the family solve its problems, only adds to the chances that a family member may end up feeling the same despair and take the same action.

But, she was in a vastly different place, and for different reasons, to this couple who have lived and nurtured and achieved and now have chosen not to continue with declining health. I don't see it as courageous as such, except in the sense of courageously pursuing an act that isn't socially universally accepted, but I do think as Pauline does, that it is their personal decision and their entitlement.

I think some are confusing a little some things

First of all, some cultures are fairly against suicide (ex: the jews I think??? We can understand why... with stories like the book you read. However, despite guilt or sadness, this man though he would have a life after. He was not 85 yo back then)

Secondly, they are all the sickness issues may it be those who are vegetable like, very very suffering from cancer, or blind and death at the same time at an older age like this guy.   Beeing very suffering is a torture. Physically and mentally.  If you are strong, young ennough so that there is hope to battle BATTLE FOR LIFE really worth it. If you are definitivly going towards the end in a near futur and are really having terrible life condidions because of so much physical and psychological pain, then maybe it more acceptable FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO DO IT and we should not consider them as weak or not courageous (IMHO)

It's too easy to judge when we are healthy and have never had any form of highly suffering terminal illness or a very terrible sickness at a very old age...   Is it ok for someone who battled all his life and have been useful for all (AND IS VERY SICK) to choose how he wants to finishes his life? Yes, I think and even if I am very against suicide, each case is different. 

Beeing tortured from sickness or whatever, especially when one knows there is no escapery possible because of age or terminal ilness is maybe the ultimate case in my mind why one would like to die.

In addition, they have been responsible and have surely talked about this with their children and relatives... This is responsible. And their children were maybe happy (don't take this word to the first meaning) to see a smooth and gentle ending for their parents they love.

In some cultures, humans, animals etc must undergo every torture and pain.....  and this in all cases. May it be real torture, torture from sickness etc.  But personally, when the torture is not necessary and their is no hope of recovery or better life, when death will come anyway, the choice of ending peacfully (sure it is.  Everyone who have saw even a pet euthanazia know how peaceful it is) and not wanting to go through unecessary suffering is legitimate or at least should not be badly judjed.  Yes this could lead to abuse but in the present case, I do not find it is abuse! 

It is pretty ironical to want a good gentle death for your aging and very sick beloved pet and consider this out of the question for someone you love much more than your pet that is in the same terrible conditions as your pet and wants to finish this way no?

But all this is only my opinion and I know they are so diversified on such a topic... And we must not forget that we were not in their shoes...

Anne-Marie

Certainly, everyone has (or should have) the right to make major decisions about their lives, and certainly one can't "compare" suffering. None of us knows how we will react in an extreme situation; we'd like to think that we will hold to our ideals, but we really don't know for sure unless we are in the unfortunate position of being there.

But, as a psychologist, I have seen people suffering with intractable physical and mental problems make the choice to see it through, and sometimes with non-medical assistance of modalities such as clinical hypnosis or counseling or spiritual guidance.

And you never know when or how your decision to be there and take the attitude that maybe your suffering means something - you never know when that attitude will make a difference in someone else's life. It may be important that you are still around to make a difference that might not happen if you weren't there. This is not necessarily a psychological principle or a matter of religious faith, but it is something I believe. And I'd like to think that I'd be guided by this attitude in the worst situations.

Sandy

From what I've read, at this particular clinic, people have to be assessed by two different and independent doctors and there are other safeguards to ensure their decision is taken for the right reasons, i.e. terminal illness.   Someone who was suffering from a mental illness such as depression - likely to affect their judgement - would not be allowed to proceed.

Sir Edward and Lady Downes were both highly intelligent people who obviously must have thought long and hard before making their decision and I think they should be respected for that. 

On my last post I wrote, everyone is coming from different place. I might add also that everyone is at different place. I am not supporting one against the other.  You have no idea what other folks are in. So best we would do is to pay respect to the deceased and be understanding.

It is a frightening state of affairs when killing oneself is seen -- even promoted -- as the "ultimate cure" for age, illness, and disability.  How long before it is socially unacceptable to do otherwise in this Western culture where your first wrinkle is the beginning of the end?

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/

(In the post concerning this incident, that is my comment about Beethoven.  Now there is someone I can only hope to emulate.)

For the most part, I believe in not speaking ill of the dead, and I'm hardly up for excoriating the family.  My criticism, and warning,  is entirely for society at large: what despairing people need is to be loved regardless of their condition and reminded of their inherent value as human beings, not to have us all sit back and confirm that their lives are so worthless as to be thrown away at will. 

I'm not in favour of assisted suicide, and believe there is always hope.

But when I heard that Sir Edward was almost totally blind and deaf, I could just about see how suicide might have been the only future he could consider.  I cannot really imagine being blind and deaf, but it must be horrendous.  Views from musicians here?

Not advocating suicide, but hopefully getting people to view things from another 'yardstick'.

Giles

Yes but who knows if he had other things beside beeing blind and deaph?  His wife had cancer etc. Like Sander said, many people react in an unpredictable manner when they are in an extreme situation.  This is so true.

Anne-Marie

Compassion makes me accept and respect people’s choice of their own exit, exit from their body, exit from this form of their being.

Anne Marie, I like your long, well thought out, and compassionate comment on July 15.  I agree with what you said.

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