Spirit Varnish versus Oil VarnishInstruments: All other things being equal (same white violin), what effect does a spirit varnish have on tone versus an oil varnish.
From Anthony Chi
From LUIS CLAUDIO MANFIOSpirit varnishes may be good or bad, the same for oil varnish. I would not like to use an oil varnish that never dries completely on my violin, neither an spirit varnish that is too "dry". I find the final result of oil varnish better, that's why I use it and there is a trend towards oil varnish, but many makers in Italy prefer spirit varnishes.
Posted on August 2, 2008 at 01:12 PM
In my process I use an oil varnish based on a 1550 recipe in the Biblioteca Marciana, Venice, it's two parts oil, one part colophony and one part mastic. I make a paste with this varnish and pumice and burnish it into the wood, it makes quite a reflexive ground and is good for sound, I think.
The final result in terms on sound will not depend only on the varnish, but model, wood, archings, set up and the experience of the maker.
You can see pics of some of my instruments here:
From Russell HopperAll other things being equal: none
Posted on August 3, 2008 at 12:24 AM
"all things being equal" doesn't doesn't apply with violins. That's a big reason making violins is so difficult.
A properly applied varnish should have little to no effect on the white violin's sound. Conventional wisdom places way too much importance on the varnish's effect on sound.
One thing to consider is that spirit varnishes are much easier to touch-up than oil in a repair. Saying that, I prefer to varnish using oil because oil varnishes are much easier to work with on a new violin.
From Marc BettisThings to remember:
Posted on August 3, 2008 at 03:09 AM
1) As said, no two violins are identical
2) No two varnish batches are alike (most luthiers brew their own), and their can be inconsistencies within single batches of varnish for all manner of reasons
3) It is hard to find 2 luthiers who agree on just what exactly constitutes a "good" varnish. Or what one of said should do.
The above are amongst many reasons why you'll never find a "scientific" analysis on the topic--and why there is so much myth and truisms surrounding varnishes.....and why for the last 300 some odd years people have been claiming to have "found the secret of Antonio Strad."
In the worst case--it can strangle the tone, as a result of the finish being applied too thick or the layers drying to become too stiff to permit vibrations of the wood.
Oil varnishes tend to be much more difficult to brew, however they have much longer working times. (and they never really "dry") Look in a violin making book such as Johnson and Courtnall's The Art of Violin Making, their instructions for brewing a spirit varnish read like something off a box of Mac and Cheese you'd get at a supermarket.....the instructions for brewing up an oil varnish read like something out of a really classy verbose professional chef's cookbook.
From Bruce PattersonMy wife has a very good violin with oil varnish which she loves very much and my daughter has a very good violin with spirit varnish which she loves very much.
Posted on August 3, 2008 at 03:06 AM
Therefore we love both types of varnish if they are on the right fiddle!
From James FergusonI heartily concur that the "all things being equal" criteria is the big variable in the equation. Any good luthier will tell you that wood, arching, and graduation, are the main factors that play into the final result of the tone of an instrument. if you're hoping to come up with the magic formula that will turn any white instrument into a Strad sounding masterpiece simply by varnishing, I'm afraid you're out of luck. In an age where superstition is almost universally mocked I find it laughable how many voice this view. However, varnish does effect the sound,so let's look at the properties of varnish and how they effect the wood, and its resonance to see what really happens when you varnish an instrument.
Posted on April 20, 2014 at 03:57 PM
Probably the biggest difference between spirit varnish and oil varnish is the speed that they dry. Spirit varnish dries much faster than oil varnish (which is why it is often preferred for touch up as multiple coats can be applied quickly to achieve color, thickness,etc.) Within bounds, the longer a varnish takes to dry the deeper it soaks into the wood. Based on these factors I will say that oil effects the tone more than spirit. However this can take many years so you may never get to hear it in your lifetime. Sorry. All of this is changed by the ground. Over the years many different methods have been employed for pre-sealing the wood which of course probably changes and diminishes the effect of the varnish itself while having quite a lot more to do with the tone. Most Italian makers in the old days and good luthiers today allow the sun to "tan" the wood before varnishing which certainly has an effect on the look as well as the tone of an instrument. Stradivari most certainly used a ground which was very hard and of an orange tint (which enhances the flame in the wood), and a varnish on top that was soft and beautiful. (many of his instruments retain only a small portion of this original top coat)
Going back to your white violin. I would say that it is nearly certain that it is not made by an experienced Luther and therefore the graduation is nearly a third thicker in most places than a good instrument and so the varnish can't possibly help or do much to the sound anyway. Even if the varnish soaks in before it hardens the proportion to the full thickness is so small I think you would have a hard time telling the difference.
In conclusion: If your simply varnishing white instruments to sell, make them pretty and don't worry about your varnish changing the sound. That is much more a result of other things over which you have no control. If you want to make beautiful sounding instruments get ready for a lifetime of discovery, disappointment, and patience. Or you could just buy one from me. :-)
From Raphael KlaymanFrom a visual standpoint, I used to think that, all other things being equal (again that phrase!), an oil varnish would be warmer and more pliant looking. I used to compare an oil varnish to an oil painting and a spirit varnish to an acrylic painting, and felt that oil varnish was somehow a bit "classier". But I've since seen too many really beautiful contemporary violins that I know to be spirit varnished (-the maker said so-) that I had to abandon that theory.
Posted on April 20, 2014 at 10:20 PM
From David BeckI'm in the position to comment because I bought a few violins from new with different varnishes.
Posted on April 22, 2014 at 10:45 AM
(1) Propolis + Sandarac with alcohol solvent (a Sacconi recipe I think) with silicate primer.
(2) 2 by 2 different makers are varnished with an oil/spirit mix, but one with and the other without silicate primer.
(3) One with an OIL varnish, silicate primer.
All these play well, in different ways.
(1) and (3) are slightly more "veiled" in tone than the others. However, "all things being equal" doesn't quite apply as wood and construction differ.
From Lyndon TaylorFrom my limited comparison, pure shellac spirit varnish or spirit that is mostly shellac or seedlac is very bright with often a hard edgy quality to the high harmonics, not particularly warm in the midrange, even a Stradivari heavily french polished can suffer from this hard edgy high end.
Posted on April 22, 2014 at 02:27 PM
The good oil varnish I have used acts slightly as a filter and cut the extreme high harmonics so it is not as bright in upper harmonics, however it seems to make the midrange warmer and fuller in tone.
These are the two extremes, tonally and many if not most varnishes lie somewhere inbetween, in not being mostly shellac, or pure oil varnish.
Also the thicker the coats of varnish the greater the tonal effects, or defects.
From David Burgess"All other things being equal (same white violin), what effect does a spirit varnish have on tone versus an oil varnish. I've heard that an spirit varnish makes for a "brighter" tone while an oil varnish makes for a "mellower" tone. Is this true?"
Posted on April 22, 2014 at 09:44 PM
Very hard to say. Most generalizations about spirit and oil varnishes should really be thrown out the window. One can make a way-too-soft shellac-based varnish, and also a way-too-hard oil varnish.
Over a period of many years, I've used both, and I doubt that anything other than chemical analysis could tell them apart.
From Rocky MilankovHow about this..... one with spirit varnish will sound more spirited, one with oil more oily?!
Posted on April 23, 2014 at 12:03 AM
From Lyndon TaylorI wasn't referring to all spirit or all oil varnishes, just shellac varnishes, where shellac is the only or predominate ingredient vs oil varnishes made from rosin and linseed oil.
Posted on April 23, 2014 at 04:49 PM
A lot of spirit varnishes contain oil, and a lot of oil vanishes contain ingredients that are really hard like shellac. So no generalizations, OK??
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