Live from China: Coverage of the Shanghai Isaac Stern International Violin Competition
March 23, 2008 at 06:35 PM · ebay:
since i have nothing to do with it,,,all i care to know is how a real one looks like...
March 23, 2008 at 07:52 PM · The "No Returns" clause should be a clue...
But who knows...maybe it sounds as good, or better, than the pink Ebay violins?
March 23, 2008 at 08:07 PM · Rats...I coulda used a spare "Guarneri" :>)
If you look at the sellers history, in the last 90 days-he baught a 10-bow bow case, a brand new "light violin case", an "antique florentine" style bow, and 2 sets of Red Label strings, amongst much else.
Interesting shopping list for someone who "inherited" a violin and is a medical professional and "does not play violin".
PPS-Somebody is going to be quite sad when their wallet is $10000 lighter
March 23, 2008 at 08:23 PM · This is truly remarkable, that someone would part with $10,000 for a very highly suspect violin, one that has about a 1 in 100,000 chance of being the real deal. It makes me wonder if someone is not artificially raising the bids, in order to give the item a semblance of authenticity. Someone is going to be a sad customer, that is all I have to say...
March 23, 2008 at 08:58 PM · I also feel that someone is probably just raising the bids to make it look genuine. I find it hard to beleive the kind of people who have that kind of money to purchase a violin, would
w/o any certificate of authenticity or something with substantial proof that it is real. It is truly terrible, however, if someone is unknowingly bidding on it thinking what a wonderful deal they are getting. I hate to think how many scams there are on ebay. Terrible!!...
March 23, 2008 at 09:23 PM · As it turns out, the sellers' "Tourte" bow he's singing about inheriting from his Grandmother, was also purchased in the last 90 days. for $50 USD through public ebay auction.
I'll bet the violin was purchased through one of the sellers numerous private auction purchases in the last 90 days also-because they're private you can't see the item.
No way is it authentic. No way. It's a shame you need to be an Ebay member to report probabale fraudulent auctions-or I would.
*Hopefully* it is someone pumping the bids up-and not a legit buyer.
March 23, 2008 at 09:33 PM · It's not a 1 in 100,000 chance. More like a 0% chance, not that chance has anything to do with it. This isn't even a mediocre copy of a Montagnana, let alone the real thing. This guy should be ashamed of himself, and should consider paying a visit to another doctor, preferably a psychiatrist. For you window shoppers, here's a picture of a real 1729 Montagnana:
March 23, 2008 at 09:38 PM · 100 bids without anyone asking a question?
That alone lets you know its shill bidding.
Its like watching a sideshow.
Buyer beware -
March 23, 2008 at 10:09 PM · His "great grandfather" graduated from the Paris conservatory in the early 1800s? The guy selling this violin must be over 100 years old. My great grandfather was born in the 1890s and his father was born in the 1860s.
March 24, 2008 at 02:44 AM · Good point Marty, I didn't even think/notice the math on the great grandfather. That's pathetic!!
March 24, 2008 at 02:48 AM · Michael,
You are quite right and, appearance aside, I was being very generous in my assessment of the odds. I just hope and pray that nobody makes a terrible mistake with this one.
March 24, 2008 at 03:13 AM · Agree with everything said above.
My stand partner bought a "Vuillaume" on e-bay and, guess what? It's a heck of a gorgeous Vuillaume. A real one. He's been loaning it out to soloists.
March 25, 2008 at 05:37 PM · Obviously a scam. Look at the bidding--100 bids and about 90 of them were in one-dollar increments from the same new eBay user. Someone's gonna get taken. How sad.
March 25, 2008 at 06:05 PM · Ray that's interesting, who confirmed the ID?
March 25, 2008 at 06:08 PM · IF the final winning bidder turns out to be a person unrelated to the seller, i have no sympathy for him/her at all, because he/she asks for it. there are so many choices out there for a good sounding 10k violin.
it is also a reflection on how people can sum up their creative energy to play games on Ebay, of all things they could have done instead more constructively, with just a bit more conscience.
but all in all, i find the listing very comical. it is so outrageous that i just have to crack up.
March 25, 2008 at 07:05 PM · If you are sure it's a scam, is there no-one reading this site or known to v-commies registered with e-bay who can 'warn' any real buyers before they part with their money?
Here in Poland, there is a site called allegro which is the Polish e-bay equivalent. However, each and every purchase is a legal contract and seen as such by the law. Recently (probably last year now - time does fly when you have kids) there was a scam/joke that made the news because someone bought or had a seven seater or some such bigger vehicle and wanted to know it's worth. So for a bit of a joke, they tried to 'sell' it on allegro for below its actual value. There was a buyer. It was then that the seller informed the buyer that it wasn't a 'real' sale. Well the seller thought otherwise and took the guy to court. The court ruled that a legal contract had been entered into and the seller was obliged to 'find' a vehicle that matched the description given on allegro (he may have had to buy one at a higher price) and then sell it to the buyer for the final bid price.
Costly joke. Surely some similar legal safeguards are in place in the US?
(Except of course, Montagnanas are probably are sight harder to find than a used car of whatever description?)
March 25, 2008 at 07:26 PM · i may be wrong in saying this, but it seems to me that 3 conditions have to be met before buyers get a say in things:
1. ebay makes its share of money.
2. ebay makes its share of money.
3. seller is happier than the buyer because to ebay the seller pays the commission.
when it comes to issue resolution, many wish it is allegro paced:)
March 25, 2008 at 07:30 PM · OK, even before things are finalised on allegro, anyone who is registered can 'send a message' to another bidder. Someone did so to me when I was bidding for a violin and warned me the guy was a scammer. He advised me to take a good look at the photos and that he'd been caught out and sold a wreck.
Is this also not possible on e-bay? Someone could suspect you were trying to get them to stop bidding for a good instrument, but the arguments presented above (esp re: age of great grandfather) should be pretty convincing.)
March 25, 2008 at 10:55 PM · I have bought and sold a *lot* of stuff on eBay, up to and including an old Jaguar and an old Suburban. eBay has a new policy whereby a bystander can't see a bidder's "real" username; this was done presumably to avoid unscrupulous folks contacting buyers to try to steer them away from something or offer them something else outside of the "confines" of eBay. So, although we can see the bidding increments and the feedback ratings of the buyers (including links to see what they've bought previously), we can't contact them unless we are in a transaction with them. Hopefully eBay will pull the plug on this one, but you know there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of similar items being bought and sold every day.
March 25, 2008 at 11:00 PM · P.S. A guy once tried to sell me a Montagnana out of his barn in Texas...war'n't no ten thousand smackers either. Shoulda bit...
March 25, 2008 at 11:24 PM · Kristin, in May ebay is going to eliminate seller feedback to buyer. I don't remember their stated reasoning. I expect there will roving gangs of "buyers" just destroying auctions, as in good luck actually getting anything sold (or bought) here.
March 25, 2008 at 11:21 PM · I think their "reasoning" was to avoid sellers holding buyers hostage--I'll leave you positive feedback after you give ME positive feedback! I'm glad I've been around long enough to have established my 100% feedback rating honestly...
March 25, 2008 at 11:41 PM · I hope they haven't eliminated a tiny problem by creating a different insurmountable one. Personally I think they should just roll it all back to version 1.0 :)
March 26, 2008 at 12:14 AM · If an EBay member asks a question about an item -using "ask seller a question" feature does the question HAVE to be published on the auction details? Might be one way of exposing this VSO for what it is... I just can't believe someone is going to pay 10K for this!
March 26, 2008 at 01:52 AM · No. I think the seller can choose that option. I don't know if once he does, if everything goes there. Used to be any member could communicate with any other member. People would tell the buyer the item had problems. Probably saying it did when it didn't too, you have to assume. There are a couple people on staff there whose address is floating around who will stop an auction if it's messed up enough and you prove it beyond any doubt (I don't have the addresses). At some point though, got to be buyer beware, a fool and his money, and so on. The 10k bidder here is probably a buddy of the seller.
March 26, 2008 at 02:10 AM · Well, well, well, just fancy that! The person who had made the $10K bid (not the alleged shill-bidder making 99 bids) has now withdrawn their $10K bid stating that they "entered the wrong amount." Wonder if they just happened to chance upon this thread?
March 26, 2008 at 02:15 AM · Very interesting: the bid amount just dropped back down to $9,900, with 99 (not 100) buyers anymore, and back to 'reserve not met'. I couldn't find any explanation...
March 26, 2008 at 02:23 AM · Nope.
He's trying to keep his con-auction on the front page of Ebay I'd bet-and with no one other than seemingly shill bids he figures an auction JUST below reserve is a better bait.
Especially since no one yet seems dumb enough to take the bait.
March 26, 2008 at 03:16 AM · I agree with Jim; I've never had serious scammer problems on eBay, but I think that is about to change. If it were only the feedback, that would be bad enough, but there is a whole slew of other devastating changes connected to the feedback that will make it very hard for honest sellers to succeed.
Bernadette, they cannot do that when an auction is live. It is known as 'auction interference' and I think they take it fairly seriously. Otherwise, anybody could scare off bidders just to get the item themselves for a low price.
Rosalind, that person is going to get screwed either way because if you retract a bid for that reason, you have to then enter the correct bid. If they didn't bid again, they're in violation of site policy.
Anne, fortunately he only THINKS he doesn't take returns. If the buyer pays by Paypal, decides to file a 'significantly not as described' claim and wins, it must be returned.
Has anyone reported it? I'm a member (although not for long, the way things are going).
March 26, 2008 at 03:41 AM · For your consideration...perhaps the person(s) bidding on this auction are the seller themselves. By dropping the bid back down below the reserve, if no other bidders jump on, the seller does not 'sell' the item and is then only out their minimal costs to list it. They are apparently intelligent enough to not 'buy' their own item and then have to pay fees accordingly.
You can withdraw a bid without any penalty. It is done all the time. I do believe you are limited to three bid retractions every six months. It used to be limitless.
March 26, 2008 at 04:31 AM · Since he has a reserve on it, these days if it doesn't sell he owes a percentage, I forget what, of the reserve to ebay. These days most people get around that by setting the initial bid to a de facto reserve and not having a reserve.
March 26, 2008 at 04:04 AM · Jim is that really true? I've not had a reserve auction not sell so I had no idea. Thanks for pointing that out...you saved me some future grief I'm sure!
Note to self: start reading all the mail from eBay.
March 26, 2008 at 04:48 AM · It was true at least a couple months ago. That's when I looked into it.
PS I looked just now, and it's stated to be 1% on items over $200, with $50 maximum, so if it doesn't sell he'll owe $50 plus regular fees. Another reason to go back to v.1.0. This is like doing taxes.
March 26, 2008 at 08:49 PM · Well, if he doesn't sell, that means he'll have to fork out some for the scam. Hey ho! Some justice left in this world.
March 26, 2008 at 09:27 PM · If someone has an ebay account and complained using the foundings mentioned in the thread would ebay truly investigate?
March 26, 2008 at 10:16 PM · On the 23rd of March I sent this message to ebay regarding item 180224742168, to the department that handles issues such as the ones raised here:
"I am very certain the item listed is being grossly misrepresented. I am also quite certain that shill bidding is taking place with respect to the item in question. I strongly urge you to contact the seller and ask some serious questions, before an innocent patron makes a huge mistake. Thank you."
Ebay sent an immediate/automatic response that said they would contact me within 24-28 hours, however they did not. If I wanted to be cynical about it, I could assume that ebay wants the listing to go through regardless, and a part of me thinks this is the case. All I know is that there are a lot of items on ebay that probably don't belong, stolen goods such as iPods, etc. (actually, this is a pretty well-known fact), but in the case of a stolen iPod ebay has no practical means of controlling the situation. However, in the case of fraudulent misrepresentation on a grand scale, supported by very strong evidence of shill bidding, they have complete control, and in this particular instance they have been given the luxury of having been informed. I do not expect the people at ebay to know any better, but I would ask them to follow through on their word, to at least make an effort.
March 26, 2008 at 11:12 PM · Chris, it happens a thousand or more times a day, and there's little to nothing Ebay can do about it. They can't call on various experts a thousand times a day in a thousand diverse fields to figure out what's in fact being misrepresented and to what degree. And for all they know you're his estranged wife hatin' on him. Gotta look out for yourself at some point. We're all over 18 and already had one mamma. I don't like their autoresponder lying to you though.
One thing they will jump on quick is if you can provide a link that shows the pictures in the auction are lifted from some site or especially a previous auction. That proves the auction phony beyond any reasonable doubt, no item evaluation needed. It's a great resource, nothing like before in history, but you have watch out.
BTW, here's the classic parody of a phony auction :)
March 26, 2008 at 11:11 PM · Jim W. Miller- Dude! LOL I love the ebay parody!!!
March 26, 2008 at 11:15 PM · ok, lets divert our attention to something that truly shines. here is BLING:
March 26, 2008 at 11:25 PM · ^Al,
Is it just me, or is something missing????.....Somebody forgot to put on a Red Label G string on that obscenity :>)
All the effort on the top and ribs....and a plane shmame 2 piece maple back?????? Rip-OFF!
March 26, 2008 at 11:43 PM · Thanks for the laugh! Imagine turning up for an orchestra rehearsal with that monstrosity - mind you, I agree the back is a serious let-down, if you're going to do something, then do it properly is my motto!
Keep the VSOs coming Al, they are great for brightening up the day (especially that one...)
March 27, 2008 at 12:08 AM · The 'sparkley' violin reminds me of some acoustic guitars I have seen...
Jim, I know where you're coming from, but I still wish ebay would have at least made an attempt at sorting this one out. I understand that the scope of what they sell is broad, and the volume huge, but if they're going to provide a means of informing them of a potentially fraudulent situation, they ought to follow through.
March 27, 2008 at 12:44 AM · There's the means, but I suspect it quickly makes its way to one of two piles. It doesn't meet some policy, which is a translation of it's not something we have the means to follow up right, and so it goes. Plus, I'm no expert, I can't say it's no Dominicus Spaghettio. I'm assuming you have enough expertise to cancel somebody's auction.
March 27, 2008 at 01:10 AM · Actually, the thing for ebay to do is politely inform the seller of the suspicion, as well as a friendly reminder of the legal ramifications of such were it to be revealed as true, which would most likely result in a voluntary withdrawl. Basically you're doing the seller a favor, one for which they're not entitled, the option of backing out unscathed.
March 27, 2008 at 04:00 AM · The bar would have to be just as high still. You wouldn't want to warn sellers over he said / she said.
March 27, 2008 at 03:23 PM · funny how the justice dept is so uptight about anti-trust issue when Ebay is essentially functioning like a monopoly, more so when EBay and Paypal becomes one, under a bigger umbrella.
Ebay will constantly evolve to adapt to the need of the participants only if it improves its balance sheet to the sentiments of its investors. every move by EBay is probably supported by market research even if the buyers and sellers do not necessarily see the merit or derive benefit. Ebay probably long realizes that it is more profitable to be one-eye-open-one-eye-closed than to be a law enforcer.
the trend is Ebay's friend.
March 27, 2008 at 08:43 PM · Al, I think ebay has owned paypal for a few years. They aren't breaking any monopoly laws that I know of. And nothing is keeping you from doing what ebay did and making your own albay. Make us pay with alpal.
March 27, 2008 at 10:09 PM · alpal sounds kinda painful. may be it will take even a bigger cut:)
i know about ebay and paypal pretty well because i read ebay's sec filings.
what i was saying was that the business model works so well that there is basically no room for competitors. the barrier to entry is huge.
March 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM · I don't see any barrier except the normal ones. Advertise it as "your safe auction alternative - all items checked out beforehand to be worth whatever you're willing to pay for them :)
March 28, 2008 at 02:33 AM · Jim,
I know very little about monopoly or antitrust laws, but I do know that eBay has widened the category of sellers who must accept Paypal. They also have the authority in some cases to hold funds (again tied to the feedback issue, which will be a sham come May) until up to 21 days have passed without a complaint. It is my understanding that they collect interest on that money. Correct me if I am wrong.
March 28, 2008 at 03:13 AM · There was one guy on ebay who wouldn't accept paypal because of something he said they'd done to him. He was auctioning a laptop and I bought it. It went a bit cheap because not taking paypal made people suspicious, I think. He had ongoing good feedback as a seller so I bought it. So it works for you or against you various ways. Similarly if they make enough people mad, then it's great for albay...
March 28, 2008 at 04:05 AM · I'm still stewing over eBay incorporating shipping costs as part of the total sale price. It's robbery to make sellers pay fees on shipping.
I do still love eBay from a buyers perspective. I have bought items from around the world that I would never have been able to get my hands on so easily. Couple clicks of the mouse, some shipping costs, and the item is delivered to my door.
EBay is an auction. There are few, if any, guarantees when you buy at auction. If I was going to bid $10,000.00 on an item, I would arrange to either appraise it in person or hire someone to do it for me...before I bid. It is amazing what some violins do sell for on eBay and 'sight unseen' by the buyer. It comes down to how much can you afford to lose to take that risk.
March 28, 2008 at 02:26 PM · FYI, as soon as this thread popped up I used a form at ebay to request that the auction be investigated. It has since been withdrawn:
This listing (180224742168) has been removed or is no longer available.
I have no idea if reporting did any good, but it made me feel better :-)
March 28, 2008 at 02:31 PM · may be 99 reports won't do, but the 100th will trigger something?:)
hah, the clash of good and evil on ebay and the good always has to play catch up!
i must say, looking back at my browsing of ebay violin for the past 3-4 years, it has been quite educational, probably more effective than reading or looking at book pics. i know my junks now:)
March 28, 2008 at 10:44 PM · Most of the description of the instruments on e.bay shows that the seller is a professional.
This is a description I would like to see on e.bay:
"This violin is with my family for decades, it was in the attic. Unfortunatly it's not German... And it's not new too (I know that old pianos are worthless). It needs new strings, and a bow too. There is a paper inside in which it's written: "Josef Rocca fecit - Taurini ANNO DOMINI 1846 - IHS". In the case there are strange recipes in Italian such as "Bagna Calda", "Raviole di Semolino", etc."
March 29, 2008 at 02:11 AM · Luis,lovely menu ^
but please,do not forget fresh-baked italien,warmed bread and a gallon of homemade
dry,red wine [just to mix well with the pasta].
a few olives would fit nicely also.
italien arias as a backround [pucchini,verdi and rossini--for starters].
add some of your violins,resting upon a homemade quilt and we are in business.
players will sing with your violins and all will be good and worthy of the occasion.
March 29, 2008 at 03:31 AM · If there's olives involved, I'll buy it. I'm a sucker for a good olive.
March 29, 2008 at 12:19 PM · This is a good way to season olives for an "antipasto":
cut some garlic cloves in very small pieces, add some olive oil, some origano and add it to the olives. You may add some fresh red pepper too.
And here a simple, traditional Italian sauce for pasta:
peel some tomatoes, take of their seeds and cut them in dices. Cut one garlic for each tomato in small pieces and fry it in olive oil till it gets golden. Then add the tomatoes and stir for 4 seconds and turn the fire off (the tomato will remain a bit uncooked). Add some fresh basil leaves and serve with pasta and grated parmiggiano cheese.
March 29, 2008 at 01:56 PM · Don Luis,
It would be nice if you wrote a cook book, or pass a recipe in a blogg once in a while Maestro. You'll be the Maestro of Mange, the Godfather of Gastonomy. :)
March 29, 2008 at 08:19 PM · Grazie, ma preferisco essere maestro liutaio!!! Do you know a good cooking forum in English?
March 29, 2008 at 09:57 PM · Luis,
recipes from a violin maker
must be better !
March 29, 2008 at 10:18 PM · I find cooking a little bit like violin making... in both detail is everything...
You can see a tutorial I've made about scroll carving here:
March 30, 2008 at 12:24 AM · so mr manfio!
what is the difference between sauce and gravy!!!???:):):)
my opinion is that the distinction may shed light on the secrets of old cremonese varnish!
March 30, 2008 at 12:36 AM · Hi! Sauce is "salsa", and gravy is perhaps what Italians call "fondo di cottura".
March 30, 2008 at 01:56 AM · Yo Manfio!
VERY cool post picture post o'er there!
PS-you refer to the Biddulph GdG book, I've been Inter-Library-Loaning it lately...and I have to say, DANG that's a neat book. If I had the money I'd buy it-and if my library would let me take it out to a big enough photo-copier-I'd copy it.
March 30, 2008 at 03:25 AM · Marc,
How did you come about being able to view the del Gesu volumes via inter-library loan? I've been dying to do the same myself. Please let me know when you have a moment.
March 30, 2008 at 01:00 PM · Hi Chris!
I'm in the midst of my master's on violin. Thus, I went on WorldCat-looked up the WorldCat citation-and gave it to the ILLiad people at my Uni, paid a $10 (USD) fee for the item- and they found it for the cheapest price, it wasn't a freebee, but for a $900 book I have for over 1 month and can then renew-I'm not griping. They said there were several-possibilities ranging from $10-$21 USD, so I won't get entirely in your way ;>)
The key to finding it is WorldCat-if you and or your local library don't have access, you're REALLY missing out. If it would help, I can email or post the WorldCat citation for you to give to them.
As I recall-the loaning institution on my copy was Uni Pennsylvania.
The lending institutions can have VERY strict rules about their materials. In this case my Biddulph copy on loan is not allowed out of the library....It actually took 4 phone calls from the circulation desk people to higher-ups just to get permission for the staff to move it over to my music library (more convenient) from the academic library, down the street. The fact that I'm a grad student in music, might also have helped my cause in simply getting ahold of it to begin with, I don't know.
Currently I'm talking to my library acquisition people to buy it-it is a longshot $$$$$$ wise. It is a VERY WELL DONE bit of research. Guarneri family history, instrument bios on 25 GdGs, very detailed instrument measurements on said (probably about 100 data points or more each measured to 100ths of a milimeter), detailed instrument descriptions/appraisals on said, instrument histories on said, GdGs methods, VERY detailed bibliography.
The plate volume has detailed life-size scroll/rib/front/back photos-and the description volume has well measured arching contours. All color-balanced, all done with same camera lense and media-so at least all the string wrappings look like you know they should (gives confidence in the images having a ruler).
I'm VERY impressed.
Manfio can correct me-but lest I be mistaken, there's everything there you need to make an instrument copy (in terms of measurements)
It may "only" be 300-400 pages, but the pages are double columned, on at LEAST 11X21 paper. It took my 4 hours of reading to make it through the 20pg (double columned) GdG bio they made.
March 30, 2008 at 01:09 PM · Marc,
Thank you so much for the information. You have me wanting all the more to find a way to acquire a copy of my own. I am told that the stock may run out in a year or so, which has me in a bit of a panic!
Please send me the WorldCat citation via private message, and I'll speak with my local library again. Seeing how I live in a small town, it may be a long shot, but definitely worth a try.
March 30, 2008 at 01:40 PM · Good Morning again Chris!
Happy hunting :>)
PS-I might be istaken-but I thought that it was ONLY the "deluxe" edition that was a 500 copy limited run. At least that is the impression off Biddulphs website.
April 3, 2008 at 02:41 PM · heavy metal violin? nah, not what you had in mind :)...
April 3, 2008 at 03:19 PM · Anyone who would bid $10,000 on a suspet violin, from a suspet seller, with no certificate, no returns, site unseen wouldn't deserve any of our sympathy.
That said I guess E-Bay smartened up and canceled the auction, I can't see the violin.
April 6, 2008 at 11:26 AM · Just search for "Italian violin" on Ebay and check how many of them are actually what they claim to be!
Actually, such people often claim "Italian violin", give you a photo of the label (itself a doctored photocopy) and say something like "as I am not a violin expert I cannot confirm the authenticity" - but they hope you'll think it's at least Italian anyway.
Quite apart from workmanship and modelling, the fake labels are often dead giveaways, but I can't say in what ways, because I don't want to alert fakers to their common mistakes!
April 11, 2008 at 02:59 AM · throw money at anything that is square like a violin:)
April 11, 2008 at 08:45 AM · Nicole wrote,
"Anne, fortunately he only THINKS he doesn't take returns. If the buyer pays by Paypal, decides to file a 'significantly not as described' claim and wins, it must be returned."
Yu know, people always say that, because it's the official, printed Paypal policy, but do you know anyone who ACTUALLY ever got reimbursed by Paypal?
I have gone to great trouble and expense, several times, to prove a "fraudulent seller" claim to Paypal. Each time, after months of effort, dozems of phone calls, begging professionals to give me an appraisal (at substatial cost) because they don't want to get involved, I won each case. Paypal did everything in their power to cause my claim to fail, but I managed to outwit them, and force them to find in my favor.
ONE SMALL PROBLEM: I have yet to see a dime returned. Fraudulent sellers who get caught on high-dollar items simply close their Ebay / Paypal accounts, once they know you've got them & just before Paypal makes its ruling.
So buyer beware. the Paypal protection plan is worthless.
April 12, 2008 at 08:57 AM · Bump.
I hope everyone sees my last post.
Paypal must die!
April 12, 2008 at 11:22 AM · allan, i can see it must be frustrating to be proved right and walk away not made whole.
as i said in an earlier post, this ebay/paypal combo is as much a monopoly as it can be. bottom line, it can get away with many things because users do not have a ready alternative.
several years ago, i got the kids computers with windows already installed. what do i know that after couple years the window program will expire so i must update to a new version as i found out by surprise?
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