June 3, 2010 at 08:45 PM ·
Does anyone have any information on the current value of violins by G.A. Chanot? I have a Stradivarius copy made in Manchester in 1891 and am curious what others are going for.
June 8, 2010 at 01:07 PM ·
I sold one from this maker not long ago, although it had been made slightly later (1906). Based on date and model, yours is probably worth somewhere between $12 and $14K (insurance value) depending on condition / quality. Let me know if you require further details or if you are interested in obtaining an insurance certificate for it.
January 5, 2017 at 09:01 PM · I just found a Chanot dated 1809. This would be made by the father correct?
Any market for this violin?
January 5, 2017 at 09:10 PM · Lots of fake Chanot's floating around, and not so many real originals. So be careful.
January 6, 2017 at 05:41 AM · Anyone wanting to insert a fake Chanot label would be unlikely to pick the Manchester one, (1855-1923), IMHO. Mirecourt born Parisian maker Georges Chanot, (1801-1883) was and is probably much more highly rated.
I have found one auction result for the Manchester Chanot - Bromptons, sold 2010, Guarnerius model, price realised £4,500.
Retail price would be higher. I'd guess at £10k for insurance valuation now.
[EDIT] i see the UK dealer Tim Toft offers a G.A. Chanot in the £10k-25k price-range. http://www.timtoftviolins.com/category/instruments/violins/violin-10000-25000
January 6, 2017 at 06:32 AM · Sorry but fake labeled violins are dime a dozen, and the more obscure the maker the better, that way no one can compare it to anything, and there are way more fake Chanot's than real ones IMHO Try an ebay search for Chanot and see what pops up. The poster we're responding to is talking about an 1809 "Chanot" I believe.
January 6, 2017 at 10:22 AM · I have found an ebay item described thus :-Antique Violin - 1899
Labelled G.A Chanot, Manchester, No 120 - Amati Model but I was unable to get Lyndon's http:// whatsit link to work.
BTW sorry to be pedantic but the OP was writing about an 1891 Chanot, not 1809.
Whilst fake labels are indeed a dime a dozen there would be little to gain financially from inserting a Manchester Chanot label. A Paris Chanot ticket would give a better prospect for a swindler, as would that of any number of little-known Italians.
January 6, 2017 at 10:30 AM · The OP was from 2010!! The post we are responding to is from a couple of days ago, the link I posted is just what happens when you put Chanot Violin in the ebay search bar, and what you get is a bunch of fake Chanots, not a single real one, I believe.
As a wise man said there's a sucker born every minute, if you actually believe no one would bother to put a fake label in a violin claiming to be worth 10,000GBP you have some rude awakenings ahead of you.
January 6, 2017 at 12:50 PM · "The OP was from 2010". Yes. But the SUBJECT of the thread is "violins by G. A. Chanot".
An 1809 Chanot, if real, would probably need to be by Joseph Chanot, b. Mirecourt 1760. Should be branded inside and on the button.
January 6, 2017 at 03:01 PM · Yes and you made the assertion that no one would bother to forge a label for a fake G A Chanot as it was only worth 10,000GBP
January 6, 2017 at 03:26 PM · I did NOT make the assertion that "..no one would bother to forge a label for a fake G A Chanot as it was only worth 10,000GBP". I wrote "..there would be little to gain financially from inserting a Manchester Chanot label. ". Not the same thing.
Why put in a label that would enable you to make a gullible buyer think they'd gotten a 10,000 GBP violin for a bargain price when you could put in a Garimberti ticket and bank 5 times as much ??
BTW ebay is full of dodgy fiddles. Pretty much everyone's aware of that. Would-be vendors don't even write "violin labelled Stradivarius" sometimes - simply offering "Stradivarius violin".
Is Lyndon upset because Manchester is not Markneukirchen ??
January 6, 2017 at 04:26 PM · there would be up to 10,000GBP to gain by inserting a fake G A Chanot label, you don't think that's likely??
On ebay you see violins with fake inserted labels that are only worth $1000 IF they were real, crooks will stop at nothing when it comes to forgery.
January 6, 2017 at 04:47 PM · Last Garimberti violin I saw in a dealership was priced at 60,000GBP.
I rest my (violin) case.
January 6, 2017 at 04:51 PM · Yeah and you know nothing about fake label violins, so what, who's going to believe a fake label Garimberti on ebay for a few hundred dollars, but make it a GA Chanot, and people like you might believe it.
January 6, 2017 at 06:16 PM · "..and people like you might believe it."
Oh, yea ? Don't kid yourself.
Shingle-hanging dealerships are also places where dodgy fiddles are foisted on the public. As I wrote, most folk treat ebay with a huge pinch of salt.
January 6, 2017 at 10:31 PM · Fake fiddles show up anywhere a dealer is dishonest or incompetent or both, that's why I get my violins appraised by a top professional In Los Angeles with an impecable reputation, and don't rely on my own judgment in pricing higher end instruments and decisions on authenticity.
Just because a high end dealer sell expensive fiddles does not necessarily mean they are all accurately appraised, that's where the matter of one's honesty in the business comes to build or tear down one's reputation.
January 7, 2017 at 06:00 AM · I enjoy violinist.com. It helps me keep in touch with the violin world in my declining years. I have learned a lot recently.
So, If I see an interesting violin, I might take note of the name on the label. If that name returns dodgy-looking results when inserted into the ebay search-box, according to Lyndon that PROVES that all fiddles bearing that label are spurious, it seems. That there was a respected violin-making dynasty bearing the Chanot name is a myth, then. And because "Stradivarius" returns a result, then there can be no real Stradivari violins - all fakes, you see ? Did I get that right ?
Incidentally, the name Burgess returned no result in the violin section of ebay - so that maker must be GENUINE. However, there were results for Burgess under "Rabbit food"..
Looking into the archive section of the UK auction-house Bromptons website, I found that they have 18 entries for George Adolph Chanot and 19 for Georges Adolph Chanot (with an "S"). Total 37.
For Garimberti there are only 19.
That would suggest that in the UK more "experts" have seen G.A. Chanot violins than they've viewed those of Garimberti. This would add weight to my suggestion that if a UK fraudster wanted to entice buyers with an intriguing label that few could contradict, he/she would indeed be better off (at least in the UK) inserting a Garimberti label rather than a G.A. Chanot one; a move made even more tempting by the huge difference in retail prices of the "real deals".
I hope I continue to live and learn.
Incidentally, G.A. Chanot trained T.E. Hesketh, who became very successful after leaving to work independently. Many of his instruments were in use in the famous Hallé Orchestra - even one of the concertmasters had one, Alfred Barker, I believe. Please do not write off Manchester as a source of well-made violins.
January 7, 2017 at 06:19 AM · Your logic evades me, any fake label of any maker that will sucker someone into paying more for an otherwise cheap violin is within the realm of likelyhood, If someone says they have a GA Chanot the first thing you have to determine is is it real or a fake, not some stupid logic of it must be real because no one would fake a GA Chanot.
January 7, 2017 at 07:11 AM · " some stupid logic of it must be real because no one would fake a GA Chanot."
What I tried to suggest was that for a potential fraudster a G.A. Chanot label would be way down on the list of attractive choices - not that he/she would NEVER select that name for a swindle.
Your posts suggested "guilty until proven innocent". On an American law-court TV programme someone would have called out " 'jecshun y'ronner". BTW I've not asked for the side-bar. I do not drink'n'post.
January 7, 2017 at 07:40 AM · You don't seem to understand the breadth and ingenuity of the violin forgery industry, half the serial forgers are specifically looking for more obscure names just like GA Chanot, because its harder to track down pictures online and pictures of labels may not be available at all. But you made it quite clear you have your own opinions and you don't have any interest in my opinions working in this industry, the first assumption you make about a violins label is that its probably a fake, 95% of the time you'll be right, any violin expert will tell you this, "never go by labels".
January 7, 2017 at 08:09 AM · Talking of trolls, how are you Lyndon?
January 7, 2017 at 08:16 AM · Actually I'm not a troll Peter, I'm a real violin repair person running a real yet small violin shop, and giving the best most honest advice I can, you on the other hand have trouble accepting that and try to criticize half the things I say, doesn't it get tiring??
January 7, 2017 at 09:49 AM · Sorry that you are in denial Lyndon. You will never find a cure that way.
January 7, 2017 at 10:09 AM · Get a life, Peter!!
January 8, 2017 at 07:05 AM · OK. It's clearly a waste of time for anyone to ask for, or post, information about a maker on this site.
January 8, 2017 at 07:49 AM · Then don't waste people's time with bogus advice about labels, its fine if you want to comment about genuine GA Chanot violins, but when you try to claim there aren't a lot of fakes floating around because no one would bother to fake a GA Chanot, that's misinformation, and a very good example of why violinist.com is not a good place to get your violin appraised.
January 8, 2017 at 08:09 AM · Once again L.T. has wilfully misrepresented what I wrote. No bogus advice. There's a sliding awareness-scale for suspect labels. Stradivarius, Guarnerius, Maggini etc. almost 100% for "dodgyness". Georges Adolphus Chanot would be considerably lower, IMHO, and I really don't understand how anyone could disagree.
The OP wasn't asking for an appraisal, or guarantee, and would certainly not have thought that any information given would be more reliable than hearsay. It could not form the basis of an insurance valuation. But it might encourage an OP to delve further and visit reliable experts for opinions - which, sadly, might not all agree.
It will be noted that my information came from searches that were wider than merely ebay.
January 8, 2017 at 08:38 AM · LT certainly likes to have a go at everyone! If he was canine I would definitely keep him as a dangerous guard dog! Although his tirades are somewhat entertaining, they are also extremely tedious. and must put a lot of people off any thread he makes comments on.
As for his claim that he uses experts to judge his instruments, well experts are often wrong and frequently disagree, and their motives are sometimes suspect. Of course there are many honest experts whose opinions are respected, but even then mistakes are made, in perfectly innocent ways.
I always steer clear of dealers who have strong opinions set in concrete, and who may have rather dubious track records. I have heard too many of them make doubtful comments to other customers as well as myself, about the repair or value of an instrument.
January 8, 2017 at 08:56 AM · This discussion isn't even about the OPs violin, that post was from 2010, the poster I was responding to (a recent post) had a violin with a 1809 Chanot label, to which I responded there are a lot of fakes floating around, David stuck his head in not even bothering to notice the context of the post, and this followed. There are tonnes of fake label violins floating around, and their number grows every day, thanks to venues like ebay, and dodgy dealers. To make people aware of that is important information, not trolling.
January 8, 2017 at 09:32 AM · Peter wrote : - "experts are often wrong and frequently disagree,..".
I once went along to a valuation day put on by a famous London Auction house. There were 2 violins in my double case. The one I wanted an opinion on was labelled "Francesco Guadagnini". Though I thought I'd made it clear which one I wanted the "expert" to look at, he took out the other one. This was my J.B. Vuillaume violin, with certificates from Hills and another dealership. He proclaimed this "a very clean Saxon violin". Well, it was after lunch - was he "well refreshed" ? When I told him about my certificates he began to burble on - "the pins, the pins.."
Goes to show you can never be too careful.
Incidentally, 2 colleagues of mine played Chanot violins - one being the Parisian Georges and the other the work of G.A. member of the family. I tried both. Very good. I also had on trial from Hills a violin by the London-based J.A. Chanot. Sadly our concertmaster said it did not "ring like a good Italian" so I did not buy it.
The subject of this thread, G.A.C., is clearly displayed at the top. Yes, Joseph Chanot, b.1760, is obscure, nothing on Bromptons archive, for example, so I could not comment on that.
January 8, 2017 at 09:35 AM · The thread was rebooted by a poster with a violin with a 1809 Georges Chanot label, that is what I responded to, you on the other hand responded to a poster from 2010, kind of an exercise in futility.
January 8, 2017 at 09:37 AM · Here is that post, reply #2 in this thread, since you seem to have forgotten it, and the post I responded to;
Any market for this violin? [Flag?]
And my response the next post which you vehemently and irrationally disagreed with;
January 5, 2017 at 09:10 PM · Lots of fake Chanot's floating around, and not so many real originals. So be careful. [EDIT] [Flag?
January 8, 2017 at 09:43 AM · Yes, famous London Auction houses often talk out of the smallest orifice. My experience was with a French or possibly Italian viola of about 1750-1800. The auction house "expert" claimed that it must be Austrian.
London was, and probably still, is full of "experts" - but most only deal in high class BS.
January 8, 2017 at 09:54 AM · "Lots of fake Chanot's floating around, and not so many real originals. So be careful"
Yes and my next post wan't intended to insult L.T. personally, but, referring back to the subject-heading, G.A. Chanot, I opined that HIS label was relatively low risk.
And I saw Marc Butterlin's post, and adduced evidence to support the validity of his pricing.
January 8, 2017 at 10:10 AM · And I told you that that was faulty logic, still is. I will admit there will presumably be more original Georges Chanot fakes floating around than GA Chanot fakes, but I'd still bet there are more fake label GA Chanots floating around than genuine ones.
January 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM · "..I will admit there will presumably by .." etc. I offered my own "presumption". What's wrong with that ? This is a discussion thread.
January 8, 2017 at 10:22 AM · Fake George Chanot's are very common sort of like fake Schweitzer labeled violins, but any potentially valuable maker is a target for forgers, including a bevy of lesser known names.
January 8, 2017 at 10:45 AM · Hi,
I recently found out my 'camilli' isnt genuine,I bought it on
E-Bay,but.......it has very good sound,so for about $1500.00,it doesnt really bother me,as long as I have a good sounding,playable violin.
Just my 2-cents worth...,
January 8, 2017 at 11:21 AM · A fake collectors' instrument suffers from being attractive-- to collectors. These are often people who know what they're looking at, or will spend 2% of an instrument's value to hop on a plane and get an opinion from someone who really does know. Not to mention that valuable violins often have good woodworking and Italian varnish, neither of which is easily faked.
By contrast, forging an inexpensive label lowers the return on an instrument, but you can potentially make it up on volume. Your clientele will be poorer musicians, or maybe middle-class moms hoping to give their kid a lift up. They might be miles from an expert, even if they knew who that person was. Or if there IS an expert on that category of maker. And if the varnish looks a little cruddy, well, nobody expects an Amati at that price. So there's less chance of being caught, and more potential victims to snare.
It comes in all sorts of ways. A teacher of mine was trying a decent contemporary fiddle being sold by a major dealer. Labeled as if by a respected maker whose name has appeared on this board, if not too often. It was good enough to borrow for a bit, but after a while he was troubled by the response on one of the strings. Luckily, he lived a short drive from the maker's shop, and was able to take it in for an opinion or adjustment. Good thing-- it was the first time that fiddle had ever been touched by the maker. Now, this guy is a really fine luthier, but he's not famous to the man on the street, and doesn't attract six-figure bids at auction. I doubt anyone but a close colleague could tell you for sure what his distinguishing characteristics are (to borrow Ken Starr's phrase). And if the buyer lived in the middle of Manitoba, and not in the right metropolitan area, he would have little incentive to dig really deeply for information. Travel can be expensive.
You want to sell a fake Zygmuntowicz for a higher profit? Give it a shot, but hope your well-heeled mark has no interest in visiting New York City for the weekend.
January 8, 2017 at 02:43 PM · Thanks Steven, you give a very good example of the forgery market I was talking about.
January 9, 2017 at 10:12 AM · Grieg Op.54 no.3
January 14, 2017 at 12:47 PM · Thank YOU Lyndon, you give a very good example of Op 54 No.3
May your trolls be very fast and always start on the upper note.
January 14, 2017 at 12:54 PM · Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion on Chanot violins??
January 14, 2017 at 01:21 PM · Not really, but then neither have you.
January 14, 2017 at 09:44 PM · There is so much love in this thread I can't stand it. :-)
January 15, 2017 at 07:25 PM · I also love Peter Charles and Lyndon Taylor. It is fine for us to disagree but a little more diplomacy could be used at times. Other poor souls have been banned here for voicing controversial opinions, John Cadd, and recently the new member from Vermont whose name I can not recall at this moment.
January 15, 2017 at 08:57 PM · Diplomacy!? I just wanted to trump what he said. It's the new diplomacy ...
Yes, it's sad that some people get banned, and Lyndon trills happily on.
January 15, 2017 at 09:29 PM · EDIT: irrelevant. Laura said it all.
January 16, 2017 at 03:41 PM · The off-center contentious trend of this thread shows the Trump Effect, which seems to be pervasive: Golden Globe award ceremony, Broadway play stage bow, what next. Is common courtesy becoming an artifact of civilization? Wish I had a fake Chanot, forget a real one. More facts, guys-- less innuendo and vitriol PLEASE.
January 16, 2017 at 05:12 PM · Wow, I feel young again.
I must say I don't know what I said in this thread that is so controversial, everyone in the violin business will tell you to take labels with a grain of salt, the vast majority of labels are fake, and ANY maker can be and probably has been faked. It seems like some posters apparent hatred of me clouds their judgement when very logical arguments are presented by me. Oh well, at least I feel young at heart, even if my body tells me how old I am.
January 16, 2017 at 07:18 PM · Lyndon, nothing against you. And yes you are perfect right, any label can (and probably will) be faked. It's just a possibility that can't be measured. And I do share your appreciation of middle-aged german violins (I guess we both accept that there is also a pretty lot of german firewood from that epoche out there, as from anywhere), I do own exactly one of these and I'm absolutely in love with it. Peace! I know how hard it can be to stay cool when notoriously attacked.
And now we should really hold it with Erin, voice of wisdom, and learn about the Chanot clan and their violins, or let this thread rest in peace... Unfortunately I don't have one single thought to share on this...
January 17, 2017 at 02:57 PM · I think it's time for Peter to stop personally attacking Lyndon. If I have to go in and delete people's inappropriate threads that attacked someone else, then I'm very very close to banning of that person. Everyone on this board has a right to express their opinion. Participation also requires that you allow that. Certainly you can express your idea as well, and it will be there for everyone to see. But if you want to argue and argue until you are right and the other person is wrong, then you're just going to end up with a lot of personal animosity. But to go into a thread just for the purpose of personally attacking someone is completely unacceptable to me. How many times do I have to ban you, Peter Charles, for you to get the point? Also it's probably a good general idea not to drink too much while you're posting to a public forum. Is there something about your culture that makes you appear very clever and cultured by insulting other people publicly ? Not sure what's going on there.
January 17, 2017 at 03:58 PM · I also think we can all make our own points without insulting other people's logic, intelligence or expertise. If you have a point that contradicts or challenge someone else's, this is just fine. But you can acknowledge each other and then make your own point with your best argument. People reading the discussion will decide what is credible based on your logic, not on your ability to cleverly (or clumsily) shoot each other down. The best insult-hurler doesn't "win" anything except for a reputation as a troll.
I go away for ONE weekend, and you kids....!!!
January 17, 2017 at 08:25 PM · I am a child at heart and want to go back to Neverland with Peter and Wendy.
January 18, 2017 at 06:55 AM · Just to make one point clear - I do not post after having had alcohol - a lot of my posts are in the early morning.
I had not intended to post anymore at all, but I thought I would make that point clear and refute that allegation.
It's always dangerous to say never, but I think I will stay away from this forum for the immediate and possibly long distance future. And OK, a ban would not be a bad thing at all, as long as it included Lyndon, who seems to survive whatever he does.
This is my final statement for this year.
January 18, 2017 at 12:49 PM ·
January 18, 2017 at 10:42 PM · Laurie, I have already addressed the first public accusation against me that you recently made. That is, you think I am I am an alcoholic who only posts when drunk. I can assure you that this is not the case, and even if I were under such an influence, I would be more than capable of using discipline and a good command of the English language to make the result totally transparent.
The second point you make insults my culture. Well at least I represent a culture, which is more than can be said for many. Take that as you may.
The third point that I would like to make is that you threaten to ban me from your site, which of course you have every right to do. Please carry out your threat as this will mean that I no longer have to suffer the pointless trolling and emotionally bankrupt comments from a certain person, who I have no need to name. I will then be free from temptation and the problem of having to resist an involvement in some excellent threads that may interest me because of their content. (From, in my opinion, many excellent and highly regarded posters).
I wish you well and send you my best wishes for the future. “Fair ye well.” (An old English saying that comes from a culture-less country that gave birth to William Shakespeare - can you beat that, or even equal it?)
March 19, 2017 at 10:14 PM · @David Beck, re: "Anyone wanting to insert a fake Chanot label would be unlikely to pick the Manchester one"
I thought so too, but ironically I just bought a cello bearing a G A Chanot (Manchester) label that I think is most likely fake. It's at least a 60 year old fake, but a few details seem wrong.
There are several G A Chanot violins and a cello with photos in the Tarisio Cozio archive, and they're all signed on the lower rib in addition to showing a relatively ornate label.
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