From Bilbo Prattle Posted from 64.252.66.241 on December 7, 2007 at 2:49 AM (GMT)
Insightful.
1. I always thought that "hold the upper arm straight" thing was a cop-out--after all, the whole arm has to articulate if the bow is to stay in the same line!
2. Bow straight is always rolled out as a must for good tone. Of course this is most of the time true, but the end product (music and the sonic details that make it) may sometimes require or may be best produced with some "incorrect" technique (incorrect in the sense that the truth of it is somehow being misconstrued).
Or, pedagogy can run afoul of creativity.
From Albert Justice Posted from 4.249.225.192 on December 7, 2007 at 5:33 AM (GMT)
Well be certain, the straight quick bows with colle leading are a good step in the right direction for me personally.
I'm still too green to competently move across a sounding point on a single note, a point I see as influencing the 'greats' bow straightness, I have recently started applying the SP's to dynamics as written, though. And gliding across them keeping the bow straight--for now.
But in the process, I was able to apply recent discussion on 'using the bow weight and it's curvatures' on all sounding points--but in doing so, I applied 'very' straight bowing on each sounding point--and--still stayed 'acutely' in touch with the bow weight.
I can say, that at least on my instrument, not only the straight bow, but letting the bow's weight produce the tone is very beautiful. And it gave me a sense of control and mastery in 'selectively' choosing, when, where and how to add weight--and those results have proven just awesome tone wise.
It also illuminated other areas of weakness in that when tonality diminishes with f4 articulations, it is not always articulation, but sometimes losing focus of a straight balanced bow because of the challenge--for me.
articulation:bowarticulation:bow articulation:bow articulation:bow articulation:bow articulation:bow --it's all quite maddening, but necessary, in order to be able to improve expressiveness.
Now, back to the grind.
From Krisztian Gabris Posted from 147.94.106.30 on December 7, 2007 at 12:52 PM (GMT)
Somehow it's a good feeling for me to draw a straight bow, that is, to have that little resistance all the way up and down, which is somehow related to the bow being exactly perpendicular (to the strings) when changing direction.
Otherwise I don't know how it works, but I think if other aspects like elbow height, and pressure are not ok, then straight bow becomes way too attention-consuming.
From Jasmine Reese Posted from 149.84.93.47 on December 7, 2007 at 4:24 PM (GMT)
So, its not making a straight bow, but keeping the same contact point throughout the stroke?
From Joe S. Posted from 132.162.142.68 on December 7, 2007 at 4:30 PM (GMT)
Jasmine - yes, the concept of straight bowing is to keep the bow at the same contact point. I was reviewing some of Laurie's articles pertaining to the Julliard Exhibition she went to this summer, and one of the teachers there referred to it as "Bow Steering." In fact, I think Laurie was so kind as to have a video posted of it. I don't remember the guy who was giving the particular masterclass, he was rather tall and skinny.
Buri - I am so glad my teacher has taught me this principle. It is incredible just how much the sound changes - it becomes much more open, coaxed rather than contrived.
From Sung-Duk Song Posted from 192.249.47.9 on December 7, 2007 at 4:42 PM (GMT)
Fortunately, I am able to draw a straight bow and in different speeds to from a range of slow sustaining to rapid colle's.
I have many friends who studied with Dorothy Delay and Jens Ellermann at Juilliard in the 1980s. Ellermann advocated the straight bow very much.
However, it was Gitlis who totally changed my view towards the straight bow. He told me that I must be able to do a straight bow, but when the music calls for it (i.e. Debussy Sonata, Franck Sonata -- alot of the French impressionist composers), one must also be able to create "impressionistic" colors. How does one create colors? He believed in "tilted" and angled bowing.
So after working extensively with Gitlis, I once played for a Galamian pupil and I was very much yelled at for not keeping a straight bow. According to this Galamian pupil, color is achieved by experimenting with sound points and still keeping a straight bow.
As you can see, this topic is very interesting....
From Albert Justice Posted from 4.249.225.191 on December 7, 2007 at 9:57 PM (GMT)
Ah, bow steering--that's what it's called. I've been doing the exercises and calling them figure 8's.
From Bruce Berg Posted from 129.62.211.2 on December 8, 2007 at 5:35 AM (GMT)
Sung-Duk I am a Galamian pupil and am in great favor of having that concept as a precept to good, basic violin technique. However, as far as an artistic technique all goes out the window. In the Galamian/Delay technical approach everything was boiled down to essentials which would work pretty well with everyone. That, at this point has been superceded.
From Krisztian Gabris Posted from 86.69.25.164 on December 8, 2007 at 12:34 PM (GMT)
Wow, crooked bow with maintaning sounding point is cool. But i don't see how it changes the color...?
From Krisztian Gabris Posted from 86.69.25.164 on December 8, 2007 at 12:37 PM (GMT)
contact point.
From Albert Justice Posted from 4.249.222.106 on December 8, 2007 at 6:03 PM (GMT)
I've only told this about a hundred time, but early on I asked a lady how long it takes to get a competent bow: "Never". And she meant it I think.
From Daniel Broniatowski Posted from 216.15.115.241 on December 10, 2007 at 10:23 PM (GMT)
"It was for this reason that Rolland began teaching detache as a one inch stroke at the balance point executed by the upper arm. Once this initial phase was mastered the student increased the bow length to two inches and executed the stroke with the forearm."
Interesting...I was taught détaché the opposite way - start with large movements and get smaller!
So much of bow technique depends on your bow hold and school of training. Then, as one matures, there is definitely an individual component. For instance, our bodies are not identical. The length and proportion of one's arms certainly must affect how détaché looks and feels at the middle of the bow.
Comments
Posted from 64.252.66.241 on December 7, 2007 at 2:49 AM (GMT)
1. I always thought that "hold the upper arm straight" thing was a cop-out--after all, the whole arm has to articulate if the bow is to stay in the same line!
2. Bow straight is always rolled out as a must for good tone. Of course this is most of the time true, but the end product (music and the sonic details that make it) may sometimes require or may be best produced with some "incorrect" technique (incorrect in the sense that the truth of it is somehow being misconstrued).
Or, pedagogy can run afoul of creativity.
Posted from 4.249.225.192 on December 7, 2007 at 5:33 AM (GMT)
Well be certain, the straight quick bows with colle leading are a good step in the right direction for me personally.
I'm still too green to competently move across a sounding point on a single note, a point I see as influencing the 'greats' bow straightness, I have recently started applying the SP's to dynamics as written, though. And gliding across them keeping the bow straight--for now.
But in the process, I was able to apply recent discussion on 'using the bow weight and it's curvatures' on all sounding points--but in doing so, I applied 'very' straight bowing on each sounding point--and--still stayed 'acutely' in touch with the bow weight.
I can say, that at least on my instrument, not only the straight bow, but letting the bow's weight produce the tone is very beautiful. And it gave me a sense of control and mastery in 'selectively' choosing, when, where and how to add weight--and those results have proven just awesome tone wise.
It also illuminated other areas of weakness in that when tonality diminishes with f4 articulations, it is not always articulation, but sometimes losing focus of a straight balanced bow because of the challenge--for me.
articulation:bowarticulation:bow articulation:bow articulation:bow articulation:bow articulation:bow --it's all quite maddening, but necessary, in order to be able to improve expressiveness.
Now, back to the grind.
Posted from 147.94.106.30 on December 7, 2007 at 12:52 PM (GMT)
Otherwise I don't know how it works, but I think if other aspects like elbow height, and pressure are not ok, then straight bow becomes way too attention-consuming.
Posted from 149.84.93.47 on December 7, 2007 at 4:24 PM (GMT)
Posted from 132.162.142.68 on December 7, 2007 at 4:30 PM (GMT)
Buri - I am so glad my teacher has taught me this principle. It is incredible just how much the sound changes - it becomes much more open, coaxed rather than contrived.
Posted from 192.249.47.9 on December 7, 2007 at 4:42 PM (GMT)
I have many friends who studied with Dorothy Delay and Jens Ellermann at Juilliard in the 1980s. Ellermann advocated the straight bow very much.
However, it was Gitlis who totally changed my view towards the straight bow. He told me that I must be able to do a straight bow, but when the music calls for it (i.e. Debussy Sonata, Franck Sonata -- alot of the French impressionist composers), one must also be able to create "impressionistic" colors. How does one create colors? He believed in "tilted" and angled bowing.
So after working extensively with Gitlis, I once played for a Galamian pupil and I was very much yelled at for not keeping a straight bow. According to this Galamian pupil, color is achieved by experimenting with sound points and still keeping a straight bow.
As you can see, this topic is very interesting....
Posted from 4.249.225.191 on December 7, 2007 at 9:57 PM (GMT)
Posted from 129.62.211.2 on December 8, 2007 at 5:35 AM (GMT)
I am a Galamian pupil and am in great favor of having that concept as a precept to good, basic violin technique. However, as far as an artistic technique all goes out the window. In the Galamian/Delay technical approach everything was boiled down to essentials which would work pretty well with everyone. That, at this point has been superceded.
Posted from 86.69.25.164 on December 8, 2007 at 12:34 PM (GMT)
Posted from 86.69.25.164 on December 8, 2007 at 12:37 PM (GMT)
Posted from 4.249.222.106 on December 8, 2007 at 6:03 PM (GMT)
Posted from 216.15.115.241 on December 10, 2007 at 10:23 PM (GMT)
Interesting...I was taught détaché the opposite way - start with large movements and get smaller!
So much of bow technique depends on your bow hold and school of training. Then, as one matures, there is definitely an individual component. For instance, our bodies are not identical. The length and proportion of one's arms certainly must affect how détaché looks and feels at the middle of the bow.